A Set For All Seasons

[Froth]

I had an epiphany. I am done hitting a Driver, 100% completely done. It is the only club in my bag that gives me issues, it is the only club I cannot hit "down" on and take a divot with, which requires me to have a different swing than my 3 metal, 5 metal, all my irons, etc. I am now gaming a 42.5" DG X100 Shafted 13.5° 975F as my Driver. I hit it pure, I can tee it low as crap, I can take a divot with it and hit down on it using the same swing as my long irons(which I love hitting). Screw Drivers! DONE, DONE, DONE! 2-irons and 3 metals off the tee from NOW ON. I took my Drivers APART so I can't even put one back in the bag! Seemingly perfect Driver swings with great contact send the ball 20-30yds off line? I cannot remember the last time I hit my 975F that far off-line! No more two-different swings for me, No Driver swing any more! Consistency, Accuracy, Fairways, Greens!

[dpark]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992']
[color=#FF0000]Help guys. There is something that I have been trying to figure out. Help me talk my way through this. [/color]

Can I assume that we are agreed that there is not much difference in feel or performance between an modern and a vintage forged blade head? This seems pretty obvious to me as I can't really believe that our metal technology has improved much over the last years. If there is a difference between the feel of a modern club and a vintage club [u]with a forged blade head and equivalent lofts,[/u] the difference must be attributable to the shaft?

[color=#FF0000]Am I overstating this?[/color]

If the above is true, shafting a vintage set "up" to a more modern shaft or playing a modern set should produce pretty much the same experience.
[/quote]

I must disagree here, this has nothing to do with metallurgy and everything to do with head design. My "modern" iron is the Titleist 681, circa 2000. It is head and shoulders more playable than my Apex PCs circa 1984. It isn't the metal, it is the sole design (camber and bounce) and CG location (lower in the 681s). The 681s are simply more forgiving. The 681s have DG-300s shafts and the PCs have Apex 4s. But I also played the Apex 99s which also had Apex 4 shafts and they were also more playable than the PCs.

[color=#FF0000][quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992'][/color]
[color=#FF0000]Again, am I overstating this conclusion?[/color]

Unless we are talking about exotic putters (anchored putters of all types, putters with inserts, etc.) - a putter is a putter.
[/quote]

Here I totally agree. If you take out inserts and funky shapes, I can put as well with a DBAP or IMG5 as with my modern Napa. No difference to me at all.


[color=#FF0000][quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992'][/color]
[color=#FF0000]Again, if I am over-reaching, please let me know.[/color]

Wedges are wedges except for the extreme loft varieties, there is not much difference here either.
[/quote]

Sorry have to disagree here as well. Wedge design has come a LONG way even after the square grooves days. Custom grinds on wedges make them way more versatile and the grooves are obviously better as well. I can hit shots with my Scratch 56* that I could never do with my Buttonback WS Fluid Feel wedge.


[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992']
[color=#FF0000]Where does all of this lead us?[/color]

It leads to metal woods and hybrids and the effects of modern shaft technology as defining the real differences between modern and vintage golf.
[/quote]

Metal woods, Hybrids and graphite shafts make a big difference off the tee, but so do modern wedges. To a lesser extent irons. Putters make little difference IMO.

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992']
[color=#FF0000]Is this where we are (or should be) focusing our attention? [/color]

I think there is a reason that so many of us don't have a problem with vintage fairway woods in comparison with modern fairways - we either can't hit them regardless of the vintage or there is isn't much difference between them. I am inclined to agree with the latter. I think the reason is because of the size of the head. If you look at a vintage and a modern fairway wood head, they are pretty similar in size. There is no psychological hump to climb over, in other words. ( I need to think and know a ton more about this phenomenon before I jump to any hasty conclusions, I'm the first to admit)
[/quote]

I agree with the comment on the fairway woods. I have no problem with mine, I hit mine well, just not as far. However, my 4-wood or 5-wood do not compare to a hybrid for stopping power on 200 yard shots into the green. I get a lot more spin with the hybrid.

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992']
[color=#FF0000]That leaves us with the driver and the ball. Are these two the real sources of our complaints about modern golf?[/color]

I'm very interested to hear your thoughts.
[/quote]

Driver and wedge are equal culprits IMHO. These cost me 3-4 strokes per round on a 6800 yard course with lots of water and OB.

Followed by hybrids (especially if they were used to replace long irons). This costs me 1-2 shots a round on my home course because we have 2 par-3s that are 200 plus yards and there is trouble behind both greens and in front of one of them. Hybrids take the trouble out of play in most instances. If not playing into a green there is no difference for me.

Irons are way down the list. They cost me 1-2 shots a round, typically because I may hit one a little fat and it will dig and the ball loses 1/3 of the distance. In general, it isn't a problem, I just play for more roll due to the lower spin I seem to get.

Puttter is a non-issue and makes no difference at all.

Hard to put a shot cost on the ball. Since I can't get a modern balata ball, it is hard to know what the actual costs would be in a round of golf.

[Froth]

"Modern Balata Ball" - I wish.

[Kirasdad]

I think it's interesting that the equipment I obsess over the most, the irons, probably makes the least difference in my score between vintage and modern. I currently have three sets of irons that I use depending on what mood I'm in that day. A "modern" set of eye 2's, my grab bag of vintage Hogan blades and my hickory iron "set" (driving iron, mid iron, mashie, mashie niblick, and 2 niblicks). If I went out to my home course three days in a row all things being equal, weather and wind, etc. and played one of those sets with my ti driver and fwy wood, and hybrid, I believe my score would be within a couple of shots from round to round regardless of what irons I used. I'm not altogether convinced that my hickories wouldn't come out on top. I hit them really pure most of the time, in fact, they are probably easier to hit than my Hogans. It's the driver and lack of a sand wedge in hickory that gets you. I can nut my brassie and it will only go 225 max and if I miss it a little, it goes nowhere. And hitting a niblick out of a tough bunker can be a real drama. I played in the US Hickory Open two years ago and got in one of those Donald Ross bunkers and...well, I was thinking that my grandma's old saw about "diggin to China" might actually come true. Made a nine, ugh. So I guess the Hawk was right when he said it was mostly about the driver, the putter, and the wedge.

Hey, here's a thought. Maybe my TWEENER set should have my hickory irons in the bag.

Now, that would really blow their minds.

I'm insane.

But it's kind of a fun insane. At least I hope that's what my wife thinks.

[Froth]

I have stayed off buying Hickory shafted clubs because I fear I will become wildly obsessed with them. I have a late 30's steel-shafted 41° Mashie Niblick "7" that I take out to the range sometimes, hitting that thing with a range-rock gives you a whole new respect for what forgiveness is...

I really want a Rut Iron. For some reason that's the club I would most want in a hickory shaft set.

[Kirasdad]

As yes, the old rutter. Never have to take a drop off a dirt path again. Just take out the rut and smash it onto the green. Tire tracks, gopher holes, no sweat.

Hickory irons are great, and frankly a lot more playable than that old 30's pyratone that you have. Borrow someone's Tom Stewart (Bobby Jones' club guy) mashie sometime and give it a lash. I think you'd be surprised how smooth it is. A good wood, on the other hand, is really hard to find, unless you go to Tad and buy a reproduction. I have three playable authentic woods. Driver, brassie, and spoon, but it took me three years (and a bunch of false starts) to find them.

[Skip Castaneda]

I was scrolling through this post, and someone mentioned how nowadays, being a good sport is gone from the game of golf. The person mentioned no etiquette on the course, people want to beat you, and beat you bad. I have a friend who gets SO much pleasure in beating me to death on the course. It got to the point were I refused to play with him anymore. I told him I'm here to enjoy the day, get a little exercise and forget about the stress of daily life. I told him it was pure torture playing with him. He felt so bad he apologized and promised to lighten up. Now it's fun playing with him.

[oldschoolrocker]

Well Skip I guess that could be filed under "Honesty is the best Policy." Glad it worked out in your favor.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Though I'm on vacation, I'm enjoying Froth's posts and that he's turned on drivers. A couple of things:

- I'll PM you my address, and you can send me that barely-hit bag of drivers you have in the garage
- I'm wondering how long this will last. Heehee.

Actually Froth, you spank the ball well enough that you can possibly pull this off. For me, I just don't have enough distance to do it.

That you changed your avatar and tag line shows you're pretty serious though! I love epiphanies, though mine are only good about 50% of the time.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1377329712' post='7736083']
I think it's interesting that the equipment I obsess over the most, the irons, probably makes the least difference in my score between vintage and modern. I currently have three sets of irons that I use depending on what mood I'm in that day. A "modern" set of eye 2's, my grab bag of vintage Hogan blades and my hickory iron "set" (driving iron, mid iron, mashie, mashie niblick, and 2 niblicks). If I went out to my home course three days in a row all things being equal, weather and wind, etc. and played one of those sets with my ti driver and fwy wood, and hybrid, I believe my score would be within a couple of shots from round to round regardless of what irons I used. I'm not altogether convinced that my hickories wouldn't come out on top. I hit them really pure most of the time, in fact, they are probably easier to hit than my Hogans. It's the driver and lack of a sand wedge in hickory that gets you. I can nut my brassie and it will only go 225 max and if I miss it a little, it goes nowhere. And hitting a niblick out of a tough bunker can be a real drama. I played in the US Hickory Open two years ago and got in one of those Donald Ross bunkers and...well, I was thinking that my grandma's old saw about "diggin to China" might actually come true. Made a nine, ugh. So I guess the Hawk was right when he said it was mostly about the driver, the putter, and the wedge.

Hey, here's a thought. Maybe my TWEENER set should have my hickory irons in the bag.

Now, that would really blow their minds.

I'm insane.

But it's kind of a fun insane. At least I hope that's what my wife thinks.
[/quote]

Trust another old golf guy, your wife doesn't see it as fun insane. But all the money you spend on clubs is your wife's tradeoffs for spending cash at Partylite, Pampered Chef, or Tupperware parties (or whatever it is that our wives do.....).

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1377653991' post='7756593']
[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1377329712' post='7736083']
I think it's interesting that the equipment I obsess over the most, the irons, probably makes the least difference in my score between vintage and modern. I currently have three sets of irons that I use depending on what mood I'm in that day. A "modern" set of eye 2's, my grab bag of vintage Hogan blades and my hickory iron "set" (driving iron, mid iron, mashie, mashie niblick, and 2 niblicks). If I went out to my home course three days in a row all things being equal, weather and wind, etc. and played one of those sets with my ti driver and fwy wood, and hybrid, I believe my score would be within a couple of shots from round to round regardless of what irons I used. I'm not altogether convinced that my hickories wouldn't come out on top. I hit them really pure most of the time, in fact, they are probably easier to hit than my Hogans. It's the driver and lack of a sand wedge in hickory that gets you. I can nut my brassie and it will only go 225 max and if I miss it a little, it goes nowhere. And hitting a niblick out of a tough bunker can be a real drama. I played in the US Hickory Open two years ago and got in one of those Donald Ross bunkers and...well, I was thinking that my grandma's old saw about "diggin to China" might actually come true. Made a nine, ugh. So I guess the Hawk was right when he said it was mostly about the driver, the putter, and the wedge.

Hey, here's a thought. Maybe my TWEENER set should have my hickory irons in the bag.

Now, that would really blow their minds.

I'm insane.

But it's kind of a fun insane. At least I hope that's what my wife thinks.
[/quote]

Trust another old golf guy, your wife doesn't see it as fun insane. But all the money you spend on clubs is your wife's tradeoffs for spending cash at Partylite, Pampered Chef, or Tupperware parties (or whatever it is that our wives do.....).
[/quote]

Well you are right about that, but I've got it even worse, my wife is an environmentalist, she consumes as little as possible. On the other hand, she actually digs the vintage thing because everything I've bought in the last three three or four years has been used so I'm not supporting smoky Chinese foundries, fuel for transporting goods across the globe, etc. and my money outgo is WAY down.

So, I've got that going for me at least.

[Froth]

Though I'm on vacation, I'm enjoying Froth's posts and that he's turned on drivers. A couple of things:

 

- I'll PM you my address, and you can send me that barely-hit bag of drivers you have in the garage

- I'm wondering how long this will last. Heehee.

 

Actually Froth, you spank the ball well enough that you can possibly pull this off. For me, I just don't have enough distance to do it.

 

That you changed your avatar and tag line shows you're pretty serious though! I love epiphanies, though mine are only good about 50% of the time.

If you want a good deal on a 351cc 8° Srixon XXIO let me know :P I took apart both my 907D2's - Screw big head deep face Drivers.

 

Welcome to the DRYBRID! (Driver/Hybrid) - I decided after playing a whole round using my 13.5° 3 metal off the tee I needed to make something "different" for myself. So, I went to the garage and sorted through my Apple Crate of old project clubheads. Low and behold, I found a head and a shaft I could use.

 

Well, this is what we have folks - and I played 18 with it today. I originally put this club together for a "proof of concept" test, well - Now, It is staying in the bag.

 

 

~200cc, 12° loft, 43" Dynamic Gold X300. Lots of lead tape to bring head weight up to 220g - Bonus points for anyone who knows what brand this is, It might even be a ladies head. Don't care, I can flat MAUL this thing hitting it like a long iron. I had two drives squeek past 300yds today with it(albeit just barely), Doesn't go nearly as far off-line as any driver I've hit and it can be flighted down if needed because I can use my iron swing with it. BYE BYE Driver swing, BYE BYE Driver! Helllllo Drybrid!

 

The retail price of that head was probably $19.99 10yrs ago. Pfffft, Modern technology my a**.

 

Next step is trying to find someone who has a Tour Edge Exotics XCG6 3+ wood in 11.5° around here to try and hit(Though, I would want steel in it). It's basically a Driver that is fairway metal size, independent testing show it 2-5yds behind some modern drivers!

 

Now I can carry a pocket full of 1-7/8" tees and tee the ball up my ramming my knuckles into the ground, when they stop, tee height is correct. No more checking with my driver lined up to the side of it 3-4 times, no more teeing the ball up on my left toe. Two balls inside left heel, hit it like a 2-iron. Added bonus, I can pocket 18 tees now and they don't bunch up and poke me in the thigh when I kneel down, like 2-7/8 tees do. I don't know how 3"+ tee guys do it.

[dpark]

Looks like an Orlimar head to me.

[Froth]

Oh, it's not nearly that fancy. Was sold as a head ONLY.

Edit: Damn, your putter is one year older than mine...

[Kirasdad]

Froth, I completely dig your new avatar, now that is real commitment, as we say in the theatre.

That head on the DRYBRID looks like an old McHenry Metals to me. If you can hit that thing 300 I'd forget about the Exotics and just go have fun with your new invention.

Me, I played an all vintage bag on Sunday twilight with my daughter on board as caddy, or as she likes to call it, "my assistant". Played 14 holes, hit 10 out of 11 fairways with my 43.25" 11 degree Toski persimmon, including one freaking bomb of 252 yards. My best effort though was on a 410 yard par four where I half popped up my tee shot ( I haven't perfected the knuckle technique) 200 yards but down the middle, then pulled my persimmon 5 wood and struck a beauty from 205 to 15 feet. I tell you this kind of golf is just more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

[Froth]

McHenry, still too fancy. I doubt anyone will ever get it, so I must reveal...It's a Turin golf Orlimar Knock-off. Pretty sure it's a ladies head, due to loft - It sounds like Persimmon which makes me super happy. My concern is that it will cave in, I have caved in numerous "knock-off" heads before.

I envy your 11° Toski. I had a Cherry Toski Perfect match with the red/white/red insert that I gave to a very very good friend for his 30th birthday, He wouldn't stop asking me about it any time he saw it...so I figured I should be a nice guy.

[Froth]

Well, The Drybrid cracked. Was hitting it into the simulator near my house and lost 20mph ball speed and it started sounding different. No visible cracks I can see yet, It's probably in one of the grooves. I was kind of hoping for a 'flying shrapnel' type of failure, not a cheap crappy no-frills failure. Why is it that every time I have some sort of Tee-Box club I like it freakin breaks on me.

f*** all this stuff. 975J Back in the bag. Only driver that has ever been in my bag for more than a year, so it's back.

Perhaps it can return me to my sanity and bring me back to "I love Drivers and Driving the ball" land, where I used to live.

[super20dan]

you might like the olimar + 11 deg driver. .another undriver like club is the old adams sc series .

[Froth]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1378351649' post='7800095']
you might like the olimar + 11 deg driver. .another undriver like club is the old adams sc series .
[/quote]
Learned my lesson on this experiment, Cheap heads just don't ever last for me. If I experiment with the "small shallow Driver" again, I'll probably just bite the bullet and buy a Tour Edge XCG5 or XCG6 in 11.5°

[Kirasdad]

Ok, my battered Hogan collection of odd ball irons and I take the field again in tournament play for the LA County Team championships on Sunday. I was honored (I guess is the word) to be given a spot on our traveling team as we journey to Santa Anita golf club for the first round of a month long event. Win and move on, lose and go home. My set for all seasons is inching closer to fruition. In the bag for this event are a set of irons from the late 50's courtesy of the Hawk, a Macgregor blade putter from the 60's, a Macgregor sand wedge from the 70's, a Bob Toski persimmon fairway wood from the 80's and (alas) my 2009 bowling ball on a stick Ti driver. I wish I had the stones to put my persimmon driver in there (and I should because it's one of my best clubs) but in this best ball, Ryder cup format, I don't want my partner to have a heart attack in the first tee. I might need him later in the match.

Wish me luck.

[super20dan]

[i]nothing cheap about a real olimar head. i would try a real one. esp the + series. its got a deeper face and makes a great easy to hit driver. you can prob pick one up for 10$ nowadays. the adams sc is ti-you wont break it. [/i]

[oldschoolrocker]

Have a new bag that I am labeling, "Post Op for the Remainder of the Season."

Haven't been able to do anything "core" related exercise wise in 6 months, but Doc did clear me for some play, so I can start to get some exercise and build up a bit of strength and stamina.

My sons decided I needed to take a break from the old persimmons and blades during my recovery play, so they purchased and gave me a very good condition set of Ping Eye2 2-sw, a i3 lw, and a Anser putter. Since the only Pings I had were some Eye2 and Zing laminates they also found an almost mint white/black Old school Ping bag.
Wanted to get me a new Ping driver, but I said I will use the Zings and Eye2 with this setup.
They knew they had to keep it somewhat vintage.

[Froth]

Pics of that old white/black Ping bag! I love the older Ping bags.

[oldschoolrocker]

Will do on the pics. It is a nice bag for sure.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1378654798' post='7815481']
Have a new bag that I am labeling, "Post Op for the Remainder of the Season."

Haven't been able to do anything "core" related exercise wise in 6 months, but Doc did clear me for some play, so I can start to get some exercise and build up a bit of strength and stamina.

My sons decided I needed to take a break from the old persimmons and blades during my recovery play, so they purchased and gave me a very good condition set of Ping Eye2 2-sw, a i3 lw, and a Anser putter. Since the only Pings I had were some Eye2 and Zing laminates they also found an almost mint white/black Old school Ping bag.
Wanted to get me a new Ping driver, but I said I will use the Zings and Eye2 with this setup.
They knew they had to keep it somewhat vintage.
[/quote]

Congratulations. Your kids sound awesome! All the best with your re-hab.

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks BS. They are, they take after their mother and my wife of 35 years. Here are some pics I snapped a few minutes ago of the kit.

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks BS. They are, they take after their mother and my wife of 35 years. Here are some pics I snapped a few minutes ago of the kit.

[Froth]

That bag is awesome, just the right size.

[dbuck47]

[sup]OSR,[/sup]
[sup]Cool bag, I think I have its twin. So glad to hear you are back on the course![/sup]

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks dbuck. I am as well. My problem now is going to be in pacing myself until I get fully recovered. And that does not suit my personality well.