A Set For All Seasons

[Froth]

^Would love to see condition and get a price for those FG-17's, as we discussed before. If they've got custom grind stamping I'm all over them.

[oldschoolrocker]

Will do. I haven't forgotten. I will snap pics of everything I can.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1380315860' post='7921155']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1380128085' post='7908995']
SMac, speaking if flex. I have found something interesting since coming back from my surgery sabbatical. After the Ping experiment I played a round with my two sons. Swingspeeds of 109 and 118 respectfully. They had picked up some blades to test out and I naturally had to have a crack at them as we were playing. Much to my surprise my shot pattern with their x flex shafts was markedly better, without losing more than half a club distance, than my sets in either stiff or regular. Picked up a set of dgx300 old Mac blades, which I posted earlier and played with them yesterday. Very impressed with the ball fight and shot disperction. Perhaps you should look into going against the grain and moving up in flex. Just a thought. I have come to believe that the transition is more important with regard to shaft flex than purely swingspeed alone.
[/quote]

That is an interesting thought, especially as my now favourite 3 and 5W have Apex 5 Pro shafts on them.

I'm guessing it is more than flex - likely a combination of flex, swing weight, and shaft weight.

Agree with the transition piece as well. I do have a fairly quick transition, and did actually have an all S-Flex bag as of 2011. Problem I had is that dispersion was no better with the irons, [u][i][b]and I got into "leaking high fade" mode with the woods who's faces I couldn't get closed in time[/b][/i][/u].

Stiff shafts don't seem to be a bother as long as the swing weight is high enough. This being said, I'm enjoying the nice smooth tempo blades force me to use, and the R flex so far is letting me feel this throughout the swing. Once I swap for the Radials this weekend, we'll see what I still think. Love the FG-17s almost enough to dump the Pings. However, I'm pretty sure I got a daughter who can get good use out of 'em.
[/quote]

I bolded the part above I wanted to address.

Scooter, for those with a quicker transition, the high rights can be a sign of the shaft being too soft. Essentially, the shaft will have flexed and will be on its way back. I used to have this problem myself, when I was fighting the Tempo Wars.

Ultimately, a driver with an ummarked, 2X shaft is what taught me I shouldn't be playing stiff. At the time, anyway.

Not saying it's going to be the definitive answer, but it's something that could be in play...

[Kirasdad]

+1 My experience with shafts has been that the old conventional wisdom of "if the shaft is too flexible then you hook" and " if too stiff you fade" has never been the case. If the shaft is to flexible for me I always seem to hit it higher than normal with a cut. So much depends on how you swing, as opposed to simply how fast (or not) you swing. I have a fast transition and I'm more of a hitter than a swinger so as a result I'm always seemingly more comfortable with a stiffer flex, even though my ss of 94 with driver really is kind of a tweener speed between regular and stiff, the stiffer shafts always feels more comfortable and the results more effective. S300, apex 4 and zz lite are better for me than the softer choices. This is also an arena where computerized read outs on fitting machines can be confusing. The numbers may say regular, but the real world results may be quite different. Even though it's hard to manage this, a grass range with borrowed clubs, or single club thrift shop finds with different shafts can give a very accurate feel for what actually works far better than an indoor cage no matter how sophisticated it is. At my home track they have a bin of old lost and found clubs that they will sell for a couple of bucks to benefit jr. golf. You can borrow any of those clubs you want for a few swings on the range, which just happens to be grass. I've gotten a ton of free info about my swing with shaft choice and turf interaction etc. by doing this. The clubs that no one has bothered to claim tend to be older so I've tried out the old dynamic and the various apex flexes, and dynamic gold, and zz lite (that one I know pretty well). I've even hit the true temper rocket shaft from the 50's. Makes it really great for vintage gear, not so much for newer stuff, you don't find any KBS or newer graphite obviously.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Appreciate the feedback guys, but going to a higher lofted r flex driver has me hitting the ball with a lower trajectory with a straight to draw movement on the ball.

[Kirasdad]

Oohkaay..weird day today, had to tell somebody, might as well be you guys. Started yesterday, actually.

Just a week ago I was feeling like a loser due to the fact that finding a set of vintage/traditional blades (w/o using ebay, I hate paying shipping) seemed to be eluding me. Well, the cosmos somehow seemed to get the message for a set has presented itself to me. There is a Play It Again Sports right down the street from my daughter's gymnastics studio. Haven't been there in awhile so I stroll in there to see what's new, or in my case what's old. I walk over to the racks of irons and there is a set of Apex IIs with no.4 shaft (my engine of choice for Hogans) in very nice shape, with new tour wraps grips on them, for the non princely sum of 39.99. 39.99 for 4-equalizer with new grips, and they're not beat up at all, nice finish, sharp grooves. It would cost me near that price to regrip them, and I don't even have to do that! So I grab them off the rack and walk to check out. The kid at the register looks like Apollo Anton Ohno, soul patch and all. He checks the tag and says "Dude I can give you five bucks off on these, we've had them awhile and nobody uses these old blades anymore." "Yeah, they're pretty dated" I say, with as straight a face as I can muster, "Thanks for the discount." "No problem man" the kid replies, giving me a fist bump. "Enjoy." "I intend too" say I, as I walk to the door briskly before the golf police show up, and demand I pay 100 bucks for them.

So today I go to Altadena GC and our beautiful grass range to see what I've got. I start hitting balls, working through the set. I'm striking them beautifully, great feel, I mean they are real golf clubs. I get to the four iron, and aim at the 170ish faux green target and nail one. I pose like a golf stud, and a sharp voice says, "hit another ball". I look around, nobody is talking to me. I hit another, just like the last...pose. The voice again "stop admiring yourself and hit another MFing ball". I look wildly around...nobody. The voice, "hit another ball". I look down, it's THE CAMEO, which now has a sort of animated face that looks a lot like the Hawk. The face was glaring at me. "Your wasting too much time ffing posing, just practice, hit another ball". "Ok" I say, in a very small voice, and then even more quietly, "How does it look?" The CAMEO: "How does what look?" "My swing" I whisper. (Long pause) "What are those other clubs in your bag" (another long pause) "Those are PINGs" I say, as deferentially as humanly possible. The CAMEO barks, "Ask Mr. Ping!"

I hit a few more balls, a bit shaken now, but decent strikes. An eon goes by, or at least it seems like it to me. Five more balls, ten. Nothing. Then suddenly "Flatten that left wrist." The CAMEO was back. Another few balls, "Fire your right elbow at the top, your too GD steep!" And on it went, four or five balls, an adjustment, more balls, more adjustments. The bucket was now empty.

"Thanks." I say "That was great."

Silence.

"Will I, umm, see you again"

The CAMEO stares at me for what seemed like an hour, but was only probably 30 seconds.

"Maybe, get rid of those funny clubs and practice, and we'll see, you were getting somewhere there at the end."

"Sure" I say.

"Who are you talking to?" A guy hitting balls in the next station is looking at me like I'm a lunatic. "Oh, uh, well....I'm, uh, just talking to myself, working on a few things, you know, uh, cutting my irons a little, um, take the left side out of play."

He stared ahead for a moment, "I wish I could do that, but my cut is just a big slice." I looked down, the Hawk was gone, the CAMEO was just...a cameo, immobile white paint fill. I looked up at my neighbor as he launched a big banana out about 160, hitting the fence on the right side of the range. The six iron in his hand had a head as big as garden implement. "Any suggestions?" he said hopefully.

I thought for a moment, then held out the four iron in my hand, "Try this." I said.

It happened.

I swear.

[oldschoolrocker]

Well played Sir, well played.

[russad]

made my morning, well told!

[ScooterMcTavish]

Glad you won't be playing the Goodwill mixed set anymore.

Hopefully the Apex IIs work better for you then they did for me.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1380465855' post='7927293']
Glad you won't be playing the Goodwill mixed set anymore.

Hopefully the Apex IIs work better for you then they did for me.
[/quote]

Thanks. We'll see. First time on the range was great, but time, of course, will tell the tale. I'm actually taking them out this afternoon for an all vintage twilight round. I can tell already that the Apex IIs are a big upgrade from what I had cobbled together, so for my vintage bag I think they will be fixtures. It's my hope that I could play them with a modern driver in competition. That would be as close as I could come to the El Dorado of a Set For All Seasons.

So, we'll see. It will be fun, that's for sure, and I think the point, when all is said and done.

[oldschoolrocker]

Yes Kdad, enjoyment is, or should be the name of the game. With your creativity you should have no trouble finding the magic that makes one continue on with the vintage sets.

Strange, but it seems more than a usual statistical amount of us responding here have a more than what is the norm amount of creativity.

Wonder why and how that lends itself to our attraction to the classic clubs and the way we approach the game in general?

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1380469118' post='7927513']
Yes Kdad, enjoyment is, or should be the name of the game. With your creativity you should have no trouble finding the magic that makes one continue on with the vintage sets.

Strange, but it seems more than a usual statistical amount of us responding here have a more than what is the norm amount of creativity.

Wonder why and how that lends itself to our attraction to the classic clubs and the way we approach the game in general?
[/quote]

Interesting postulation, sir. Could I suggest that creative people inherently appreciate both craftsmanship and form in the items they own? This would relate not just to golf clubs, but even items as mundane as a toaster, a pair of shoes, or a wristwatch?

Disposable "Made In China" goods do not fit very well into this world view, as most are devoid of the type of craftsmanship that appeals to the creative mind. So we revert to buying items made when craftsmanship was still in vogue, back when washing machines, stoves, and televisions lasted 20 years.

Could I also suggest that our relative ages in this forum (mid-30s to ???) represents that last vestiges that existed before the "plugged in" generation? We actually had to be creative and use our imaginations on a regular basis. Heck, at one time, a stick and some rocks could provide hours of entertainment. Give anyone under 15 a stick and rocks, take away their iPod, and see what happens. Hours of parental agony is the likely result.

[Kirasdad]

I agree completely with the central idea of your post Scooter but I must say my toaster from the 50's bought at a yard sale is a piece of crap. Toast is either burnout a crisp or barely warm, and bagels don't fit, and if I can get them in there, they come out mangled.

I know, maybe I can get an investment cast PING toaster. It makes more eatable toast.

[teevons]

And the beryllium copper is tasty

[Kirasdad]

Yes, it has a sort of deadly flavor.

[MoaningM]

but becu it does patina to a nice burnt colour, perfect to then use that one iron to spread some butter and jam over.

[Froth]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1380597602' post='7935601']
Yes, it has a sort of deadly flavor.
[/quote]
[homersimpson] MMmmmm... Deadly [/homersimpson]

[Kirasdad]

Well, I took my new to me Apex IIs out for a drive in an all vintage twilight round on Sun. at Brookside GC nestled by the Rose Bowl here in beautiful Pasadena. There is no brook, at Brookside, however there is an arroyo concretized by the army corps of engineers years ago to prevent flooding. The arroyo runs through the middle of the 36 hole layout. It is popularly known as "the o boy yo" for if an errant strike finds the concrete channel, one can watch the ball bounce it's way south for quite some distance. If you could keep up with it, the sphere would eventually bounce and roll 30 miles or so down to Long Beach and the Pacific Ocean. I sometimes imagine my Precept Lady IQ (not that I've ever hit one in there) being consumed by a whale and then pooped out and ending up on a beach in Hawaii. Now that's a long arduous journey for a golf ball simply to end up in a gigantic bunker but...if you have in up in a sand trap, Hawaii is certainly a good choice.

So, back to golf, when I play twilight, due to time constraints, I never warm up. I just head for the tee and hit away, hoping to get in as many holes as possible. If one gets lucky 18 is possible. More often this time of year it's 13-15 holes. So the first few holes I'm clinking and clanking not really finding the sweet spot on anything. I'm a pretty good driver of the golf ball so I'm keeping my persimmon in play, 225 with a low sort of cut. Not really solid or flighted properly, but manageable. The Apex IIs are thin city, can't find the center of the club face with a map. I'm starting to get concerned. The mind starts talking to me, "these aren't for you", "too stiff", "too unforgiving" too something or other...blah, blah, blah. The usual BS. I make a bunch of bogeys in a row, then a 3 putt double...aaah! I'm losing my mojo! Then a short par 4 and I hit my three wood off the tee and the neck cracks! It was a good shot too, right down the center. So now I'm wondering why I even came out. I'm 110 to the hole, a bit much for the equalizer, so I cut a little nine in there, and hit it perfect, butter, 4 feet and can the putt for birdie. So even though I'm planning a funeral for my three wood, I'm feeling better. Next four holes: 5 iron to front fringe 25 feet to hole, 5 iron from 165 to 6 feet on par three, 5 wood to 25 feet on next hole, and 6 iron to 20 feet on the next. Now I'm a par machine, two more pars follow, then I clank another one, but the nice thing about a thin shot (unless it's a wedge shot) is that the misses are pretty playable. So I'm 5 or so yards from the front of the green, pin in back, total distance 100 feet. Hit an 8 iron runner up there and it catches the hole and almost goes in.

It's now almost dark. I walk to the car.

What did I learn?

A few things.

#1 As Harry Vardon used to say, "Just keep playing"
Keep your mojo going, hit the best shot you can, you never know what's going to happen.
I went from pathetic hack to Ben Hogan (well, my version of him anyway) in two hours.

#2 I think our expectations are out of whack. I mean I'm a single digit...am I going to hit every shot exactly the way I've planned? Of course not, but sometimes our psyche is a stern taskmaster.

#3 Blame. To paraphrase Mr. Dishonesty, Lance Armstrong, "It's not about the clubs". Too often (especially on other areas of golfwrx) people think if the rifle shafts on their irons was 5.9 instead of 5.7, then, THEN...they would finally be good, shoot under par, or whatever. This is, of course, not the case. When I was was scraping my new to me Apex IIs around the first seven holes it has little to do with the clubs. I'm not warmed up, I've never used them before, and I'm not always in good form, are three places to look instead. These irons are beautiful, well designed, and they fit my eye, which is more important IMO than anything else. When I put my "A" move on them they flat out perform. It's not about the clubs, it's about me.

#4 Golf is not easy, I don't care if your using the biggest shovel Callaway ever designed and a Rocketballz "to the moon, Alice" driver, it's a tough game. There are no shortcuts, it's a struggle, you have to work at it. I mean, that's the biggest reason most of us care so much about this. Especially our "devoted to the roots of the game" gang here on the Classic forum. We use equipment that was played for the first 450 years of the game, as opposed to the last thirty, because we appreciate craftsmanship in our tools, enjoy the challenge of the game, and have a sense of history and so on. And it can be done, you know, from time to time, by mere mortals. Back in the mid 70's, just before the dawn of the investment cast era, I had a run of well below 80 play in tournaments, as well as friendly golf, that included a 68 with a set of Arnold Palmer blades, a black Palmer laminated driver, and a bullseye. I played everyday in those days, so I'm not sure I could do that again, but I don't think 75, 76 is out of the question.

The day after my first round with the Apex IIs, I didn't need to be at the university until the afternoon. So I took the irons to the range, and got to work. For as someone famously once said, "it's in the dirt".

[NRJyzr]

My condolences on your three wood...

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1380734533' post='7942905']
#3 Blame. To paraphrase Mr. Dishonesty, Lance Armstrong, "It's not about the clubs". Too often (especially on other areas of golfwrx) people think if the rifle shafts on their irons was 5.9 instead of 5.7, then, THEN...they would finally be good, shoot under par, or whatever. This is, of course, not the case. When I was was scraping my new to me Apex IIs around the first seven holes it has little to do with the clubs. I'm not warmed up, I've never used them before, and I'm not always in good form, are three places to look instead. These irons are beautiful, well designed, and they fit my eye, which is more important IMO than anything else. When I put my "A" move on them they flat out perform. It's not about the clubs, it's about me.
[/quote]

C'mon, blame the clubs.

You're actually safe in doing so for a few more rounds.

One thing I found with the Apex IIs was that they were so light, my normal in to out swing pulled the club too far inside, causing a lot of toe hits. Thin was a bit of a thing for me as well at first, likely due to over-anticipating the shot and watching it before I hit it, or (again) the light weight messing with the low point of your swing.

[Kirasdad]

That's funny. I'll keep that in mind.

I am 5'8" 160 soaking wet so nothing feels light to me. One of the reasons I believe I get the thins at times, especially with vintage/traditional clubs, is I rush with my hands trying to hit it too hard. I know, for instance, that the five iron in my hand is really a six in a modern bag, or even a near seven in the stupid clubs that have come out recently, so I subconsciously try and goose it a little and come up and thin it. If I allow my swing to happen instead of making it happen, accepting what the club gives me, the Apexes work very well for me. I have had two range sessions since my first round and things are progressing nicely.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1380738830' post='7943237']
My condolences on your three wood...


[/quote]

I appreciate your sympathy. I'm thinking the back yard next to the dog for a final resting place. The cat ashes are in an urn in the closet, but I'd have to get a wood chipper pull that off.

[oldschoolrocker]

Ashes to ashes,
Dust to dust,
My trusty 3 wood,
She went bust.
The best I could do on short notice.
Now about that twilight round,
Good stuff!!!

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1380740054' post='7943335']
That's funny. I'll keep that in mind.

I am 5'8" 160 soaking wet so nothing feels light to me. One of the reasons I believe I get the thins at times, especially with vintage/traditional clubs, is I rush with my hands trying to hit it too hard. I know, for instance, that the five iron in my hand is really a six in a modern bag, or even a near seven in the stupid clubs that have come out recently, so I subconsciously try and goose it a little and come up and thin it. If I allow my swing to happen instead of making it happen, accepting what the club gives me, the Apexes work very well for me. I have had two range sessions since my first round and things are progressing nicely.
[/quote]

Very good,

And as well know with these vintage clubs, it's tempo, tempo, tempo.

Mind you, the Radials are almost begging me to get down after the ball.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1380734533' post='7942905']
[...]

#3 Blame. To paraphrase Mr. Dishonesty, Lance Armstrong, "It's not about the clubs". Too often (especially on other areas of golfwrx) people think if the rifle shafts on their irons was 5.9 instead of 5.7, then, THEN...they would finally be good, shoot under par, or whatever. This is, of course, not the case. When I was was scraping my new to me Apex IIs around the first seven holes it has little to do with the clubs. I'm not warmed up, I've never used them before, and I'm not always in good form, are three places to look instead. These irons are beautiful, well designed, and they fit my eye, which is more important IMO than anything else. When I put my "A" move on them they flat out perform. It's not about the clubs, it's about me.

#4 Golf is not easy, I don't care if your using the biggest shovel Callaway ever designed and a Rocketballz "to the moon, Alice" driver, it's a tough game. There are no shortcuts, it's a struggle, you have to work at it. I mean, that's the biggest reason most of us care so much about this. Especially our "devoted to the roots of the game" gang here on the Classic forum. We use equipment that was played for the first 450 years of the game, as opposed to the last thirty, because we appreciate craftsmanship in our tools, enjoy the challenge of the game, and have a sense of history and so on. And it can be done, you know, from time to time, by mere mortals. Back in the mid 70's, just before the dawn of the investment cast era, I had a run of well below 80 play in tournaments, as well as friendly golf, that included a 68 with a set of Arnold Palmer blades, a black Palmer laminated driver, and a bullseye. I played everyday in those days, so I'm not sure I could do that again, but I don't think 75, 76 is out of the question.

The day after my first round with the Apex IIs, I didn't need to be at the university until the afternoon. So I took the irons to the range, and got to work. For as someone famously once said, "it's in the dirt".
[/quote]

Very elegantly stated. And I completely agree.

[Kirasdad]

Thought I would try the photo thingy.

Here is my "Set For Some Seasons"

The 3 wood (alas) is no longer with us, well, as a player, anyway.

[oldschoolrocker]

An update on my never ending quest.
This season, with my surgery, layoff from anything physical, tinkering around, then return to play has been the most bizarre 6 months of my golfing life.
Have always played vintage irons on and off mixed in with the moderns, but had also always chased the next angry fix of driver madness. Higher loft, weaker flexes, bigger heads... Then 2 summers ago experimented with a lower lofted head and heavier stiffer shaft and found the combo really suited my transition. Well, I must have found a time machine because I am now down to a 7.5 degree, 350cc
head with stiff shaft at 44 inches and hitting it better than I ever imagined I would be able to. The only explanation I can think of is that all I have done workout wise in the last 6 months is work on flexibility. I do a golf specific 15 minute routine 2 x a day with a weighted club and stretch bands and the results have been astounding.
At 59 with a history of lower back and hip issues and coming off major surgery I feel 15 years younger.
Moral to the story, ditch the heavy weight lifting and concentrate on FLEXIBILITY. It doesn't happen overnight, have patience and the rewards will amaze you in your overall health benefits.
Sorry for the rambling, I was just feeling blessed with my physical state and wanted to pass on what is working for me.

Randy

[super20dan]

i like the ironmaster. my choice for playing vintage also.i just got apex 2 irons and if the cameo starts talking to me -should i be suprized?-very funny post and well said.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Randy is 100% on.

My game really started improving when I started doing a stretching routine over the winter a few years ago. I had my kids video tape my swing, and saw how much I was bending my elbows due to a failure to shoulder turn appropriately, or get my left arm across my chest.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1382994025' post='8070245']
i like the ironmaster. my choice for playing vintage also.i just got apex 2 irons and if the cameo starts talking to me -should i be suprized?-very funny post and well said.
[/quote]

Oh..wouldn't be surprised at all. The Cameo talks to me all the time. I just don't write about it anymore don't want people thinking I'm nuts. Funny though, it's always on the range, never on the course. I figure that's because the Hawk was the original range rat. I'm sure this is all my imagination...
Pretty sure...