A Set For All Seasons

[Kirasdad]

Forgive my stealing my topic title as this new post is not nearly as interesting or profound as Robt. Bolt's brilliant play about the exemplary character of Sir Thomas More and his resistance to granting Henry the VIII's divorce from his then wife (her only flaw being he was ready for a new one, making her the "old one", an unpardonable sin.

So here I sit in California, up when the rest of the country and probably most of California, is asleep. I am using this late hour ruminate on golf. As good a time as there is for this activity, since it's a time when I'm not required to do anything. I've been thinking a lot about Scooter's recent post "Moving Backwards in Time...why do you play vintage golf?". This topic has been responded to by many of us vintage/classic guys in a more thoughtful, contemplative way than most golfwrx topics. I've enjoyed reading all the posts and it has me thinking about the whys and wherefores of my trying to manage the various golf worlds in which I operate. Keeping myself happy and satisfied in these sometimes competing golf societies has been something of a challenge. I'm thinking others may have similar issues so I thought I would discuss a bit how I keep the plates spinning in the air, and invite others to share their experiences as well.

 

1. I play in tournaments

2. I play with highly skilled golf buddies

3. I like to,play as much vintage as I can

 

Aye, there's the rub as Master Will would say. Number 3 doesn't always fit with 1 and 2.

 

So...to make 1,2 and 3 work I essentially have three sets.

 

The HONEST set. This being the set in which every shot is honestly earned. It consists of:

 

Bob Toski persimmon driver

Power Bilt Citation fairway wood

Hogan Precision irons 3-Equalizer

Macgregor FCW12 sand wedge

Macgregor 8802 type putter ( it looks like an Ironmaster, but it doesn't say that on the putter)

 

The COMPETITIVE set:

 

Pinseeker10.5 degree titanium driver (bought it for 39 dollars American several years ago out of a bargain barrel, best contemporary driver I have ever hit, go figure)

Pinseeker strong 5 wood

Cobra 23 degree hybrid

Pinseeker 25 degree hybrid

Ping Eye Two irons 5-PW

Macgregor FCW12 SW (I practically sleep with this thing)

PIng Zing 2 putter

 

The TWEENER set:

This is the "have my cake and eat it too" bag

Titanium driver, 5 wood, and hybrids

Hogan Precisions

Macgregor SW (my wife is jealous of this club)

Macgregor putter

 

Deciding what clubs play is something of a mind bender for me, or was for awhile. II like to play vintage, i.e. the HONEST bag, more often than not and three years ago I did on most occasions, everything else be damned, but I found I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. I played an all vintage bag in the club championship three years ago, the same event I had finished third the year before, and I played miserably, way out of the running. I was pissed off at golf and the runaway technology, white drivers, etc. "I'll show you, I'll play vintage and beat you anyway." I wan't playing to enjoy myself, I was playing to prove something, an ego thing, my grand statement about the state of the game. In fact while a couple of guys thought it was cool, most people didn't give a rip what I thought about the state of anything, they beat my head in, and were happy to do so. I felt like a fool, and as a matter of fact, I was one.

 

The fact is, most of the time golf is a social game, and when playing with my buddies (no.2) I again played vintage all time at first and it soon became an issue for me. I play with 6 or 7 guys regularly, all single digits and we've played together for years, wagering modestly in good fun, but a fairly competitive game. All,of a sudden I was an outlier, all be it a welcomed one. Everyone was supportive, "wow, neat clubs" "cool" and so on, but now I'm on the whites, they are on the blues. Do we play for money, what about strokes, which had never entered the occasion before. It just wasn't the same.

 

So...what to do. I solved this problem by coming up with the three sets. When I'm playing in a tournament, out come the Pings, with my buddies I go with the TWEENER set. I get the satisfaction of the old school irons without being out driven by 40 yards on every hole. By myself, or with my daughter, vintage only, and I don't even keep score, just hit shots, as creatively as I can, great fun. This system has worked out really well for me, and I feel much more comfortable with my golf life.

 

Anyone else have these issues, and how do you/did you deal with it?

 

 

 

 

[oldschoolrocker]

I think most of us certainly do struggle with these issues.
I find myself in a variety of golf situations.
I try to play in 3 to 5 tournaments a year depending upon my schedule.
There is a weekly "money" game at the local muni that I play when I can.
I belong to a seniors group that plays 3 times a week. I try to play at least once a month with them.
Once a week with my sons, 30 and 32, if we can schedule it.
Pick up rounds with friends, age 20 to 70 depending.
Pot luck of getting paired with whoever as a single.

Like you, I wish it were a perfect world, and woods, blades, and a classic style putter were the only options, but, the Golf gods did not die, and therefore I am not King, so I labor with my decisions with respect to club selection.

So, here's how I am handling it for now.

Tournaments - 975d driver, 975f 18*, Adams 4 hybrid, 690.mbs 3-pw, Volkey 54 & 60* wedges and one of 2 bullseye putters(depending on the greens.) looking into either Cleveland cg4 tour, or some older Pings for this setup.

Money - TEE driver, Ping eye2 3 wood, Golfsmith Square Toe Blades 2-sw and one of the bullseyes.

Senior group - 1953 Macs M85s throughout the bag, 1, 4 wood, 2-sw with matching Mac putter.

All others - Wood driver, pick one from Louisville Smart, Ping Zing, or one of the old Macs, SEOM, or EOM. Pick em fw woods. Irons- Wilson Staff Bullet Backs, Wilson Staff Goosenecks, Aussie Blades, Golfcraft Contientials, Golfsmith Square Toe Blades, Bullseye putter.

I really don't see a big difference in overall performance with the irons, only about a 20% distance increase with the modern drivers. Maybe 30% with the TEE, but it's not always fairway friendly. If I am swinging well, I never expect to miss a fairway with the real woods.

I have been talking to Mike Just at Louisville golf about doing a custom driver for me with respect to the lie angle. When the wife gives me permission to pull the trigger on it I suspect I will be playing it most of the time even in the Tournaments and money games.

[fluffy265]

Firstly I always play vintage blades, so there's no dilemma or disadvantage there!
I find that I'm always trying to "tame" the modern driver and that I have to consciously adapt my swing to suit them off the tee.
Traditional woods let me keep my natural swing and consequently I'm much more confident and reliable playing them.
There's less of a dilemma with the fairway woods, I think the only real advance technology has brought us over time is better turf interaction, I'll play whatever takes my fancy on the day.

So for me it's going something like this. On tight course's I'll happily play all traditional gear, and also if I'm playing with old timers (regardless of course length). The modern gear comes out if I'm playing a lengthy track.

J

[dbuck47]

I have 3 bags as well that could be somewhat categorized like Kirasdad. I don't play much competitive golf and when I do it is usually in a scramble. I have at least once used my vintage bag in a scramble, at it was ok, but I get a little benefit on some shots with more modern stuff. The group I play with most often ranges in age from 22-70, but we all play off the whites (regular men's tees-not the tips)and we are all around bogey golfers; some a little better. If I am careful, I can stay around my 14.9 hcp with my vintage clubs on my home course. So no problem there. last time I played with the group with my vintage stuff, I think I had low score, but one of the better guys was a little off that day. In another post, I detailed what I called my "main bag", but these days I play my vintage bag almost 3 times to 1 over my "main bag". I am also attached to an old Wilson wedge that is usually in whatever bag i am using, as well as my Wilson Geo Low Original 600 putter.

[Froth]

The longer/more years I hit the old stuff, the more comfort I find in it. My play bag is "Modern" Metal's with my FG-17's, I swap out the Wedges and Metals for Wilson Staff Wedges and Wilson 1/3/5 Persimmon's for my 80's bag and the FG-17's stay put. When it really matters and I need the clean shot/best contact...I couldn't imagine approaching my ball without the FG-17's in the bag.

[profsmitty]

Fg-17s are in the bag. I keep going back to them gratefully after I've tried the newest "age appropriate" set that comes my way. More about this soon, I promise.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Profsmitty - that's teaser #2 - surely they should be done editing your article by now!

Great discussion Kirasdad, and an interesting challenge I have been specifically struggling with since I bought my FG-17s. Other than when my gamers were Nickent ARC Blades (really almost a player's CB), I hadn't gamed blades since 2002 when I bought my first decent set of clubs. I did pick up some 62-63 Staff Fluid Feel Turfriders a couple of years ago, but played them three times, and found them virtually unplayable.

But then I get these FG-17 thingies, and go play them, and find them way more forgiving than people give them credit for. Then I go hang out on WRX, and find other like-minded individuals who convince me I should be hitting wooden woods. And here I am.

And I do enjoy going 100% vintage, and the challenge of hitting the small woods, and the focus your blades demand from you. I do miss the size of the soup can, and I do miss having wedge options above my PW. But, it puts a challenge back in the game that was sadly missing once I broke 80. In short, it is fun. But it does not necessarily lead directly to lower scores. And I think this is the dichotomy most of us get caught in.

We've been conditioned to want to shoot lower scores, and to study and dissect everything we do on a course, all with the aim of getting a lower score. Chasing a lower score can be fun. Chasing a milestone lower score (i.e. 80) can become a painful grind. Regardless, when someone asks you "How was golf today" after a round, they're not asking about how smooth your swing was, or how nice the weather is. They want to know your score, baby, because score is the one method everybody understands for determining if you had a "good" or "bad" day.

And we know this, because we have days where we're a little off, scramble all over the course, then pencil up that we're only 6 over for the round. We felt bad about our round until we saw the number, and now we feel good. Or, we have a day where we're swinging sweet, making crisp contact, and are just missing better scores by a lipped putt here, a short pitch there, etc. We add up our card thinking we had a good day, and one of our best "feeling" days has no lower a score than an average round. Then we feel bad.

So when we want to grab that vintage bag, and go beat some laminated woods and blades, we know it will be fun. But we also know we are increasing the room for error - that although we can shoot a score as good as we can with our modern clubs, the margin for error is much narrower, with results that are much more painful. So although we feel good about the clubs, we know we may end up feeling bad about our score, which then makes one wonder what set they should play, or if they should even play vintage at all.

Since I'm a bit new to the vintage scene, I don't quite have this dichotomy figured out yet. I only will get so many rounds a year, I will only get so many times to beat my course best score, and for fun I'm going to go play clubs that are harder to hit, and punish my mishits more? What? But I think I'm starting to get a plan.......

#1 - Turn the vintage blades into everyday gamers. This one takes a bit of a leap of faith, but I really do like my FG-17, as I'm sure I'll like my Apex IIs. And it is not as if the Eye2s are the be all-end all when it comes to forgiveness. By today's standards, an Eye2 is almost a player's CB, and that massive amount of offset seems to screw up my direction on approach irons (the single biggest weakness in my game). Possibly what I give up in forgiveness with blades, I gain back with better directional control. So maybe this isn't a big leap; going to blades from the Eye2s isn't that big a deal.

#2 - For league or competitive play, I'll game the blades, but keep my modern woods and wedges. As much as it is a fun experiment to hit wooden woods, modern metal woods and fairways (no hybrids in my bag!) are simply way more forgiving on mishits than the old wood ones. Though a wooden 3W or 5W may make it into this rotation at some point too. The FW give up less to modern clubs than the drivers do.

#3 - For fun, I will play an all vintage bag (either my Wilson Staff bag or a Ben Hogan bag) with only period-correct clubs in it. This round is done for fun, I may or may not keep score, and these will be the days I use to recapture some of that magic golf had for me when I was 16. There is no expectation for this round other than hitting a ball, enjoying nature, and maybe even pushing a cart. If I score well, great! If not, I will not let my score ruin a beautiful day. Have to do this at least once every two weeks.

In other words, my putter and irons will always be vintage, and the only thing that will change out are the woods and wedges for competitive play. And really this gets even more fundamental - when I am playing with others, we use the competitive bag. Playing by myself? Vintage works wonderfully. Though if I could find someone else who'd like to play vintage, that would be a treat, too.

Playing vintage against my alpha male friends (we travel in packs) would be like throwing a steak to a pack of hungry Rottweilers.

[Kirasdad]

Nice post, as usual Scooter, I really like your style.

Yes, my golf buddies definitely fall into the Rottweiler camp. When I pull the persimmon out of the sack I see the "hungry shark" look come over their faces. The look that means I'm going to end up buying the Sierra Nevadas after the round as well as coughing up the Nassau money.

You know, the more I think about it, this really boils down to the driver. My Power Bilt fwy wood isn't that much harder to hit than a steel one, the head size isn't a drawback ( it may be an advantage). The distance is a little shorter with the PB, but nothing dramatic. The difference between the Precisions and the PINGs are...uh, well, Precision. The Hogans are more accurate but more demanding, but not dramatically so, as you so aptly put it, the Eye 2s are not exactly pie plates. They are commonly referred to as "players irons" by the Pingites ( Pingites, in my glossary, are the guys who literally won't play with anything else) and when I play them, I believe I've sort of convinced myself that they are super forgiving to justify my use of them to score.

Aaaah! I'm starting to talk myself out of my own post! Oh...crap, maybe I should only have 2 sets instead of 3?

I need a drink.

Back now.

Anyway...the driver is the big difference maker. When I play my HONEST bag, I certainly hit a lot of fairways, 235 down the middle, but my buddies are good players, they're hitting fwys too, about 265, 270. On a 420 plus par 4, or a longer par 5 I'm at a major disadvantage. Simply because of that one club. Forget the belly putter, and do something with the ball, and cap driver size at 240ccs.

Now, we're talking soda crackers, with that I'm down to one set.

Nirvana.

Will never happen.

Need another drink.

[Froth]

I'm all for going back to liquid core rubber wound Balata balls. Incredible shot shaping ability, I will always miss my Tour Balata 100's.

[okesa]

[size=5]"Aye,there's the rub" as my old homie Will said,I also said it the other day when reaching into the bathroom cabinet for the Voltarol gel![/size]
[size=5]Unless you can be very single minded and focus on only one aspect of club choice and if you have no competitive spirit,it's not a problem and play for 'fun' is the order of the day.Sadly even at 60 I'm still a combative and competitive type who gets really pissed off at seeing golfers with worse swings launch it past me because of technology and Kirasdad is absolutely right in saying that most people don't give a toss about what you're playing with,golfers,indeed people in general have little or no perception of quality,a mindset brought on by the 'disposable' society that we live in and also not helped by the fact that manufactures now insist on churning out two new models a year when in the 'old days' it would probably have been every 18 months to 2 years.[/size]
[size=5]I would be happy to wager that most new golfers would have no idea about Apex II's,FG17's,Ram TG or Mac blades,they simply don't understand them and that applies across the board to quality tailoring,shoes,shotguns,rifles,motorcycles really anything that took skill,craftsmanship and experience to produce.[/size]
[size=5]Now it's a trip to China and an order to 'make something that looks like this',doesn't matter if it's crap because the people that buy it have no sense or pride of ownership,they don't care as long as it has a shiny badge glued on the back and it's going on to ebay along with all the rest when a new model comes out.[/size]
[size=5]I digress;for friendly knocks when scores aren't kept I play a half set of blades and have returned to a Mac driver and 4-wood in persimmon.[/size]
[size=5]For competition the timber comes out and is replaced with a 9.5 983K driver and that's it,no fairway wood as at the moment my course is much like Muirfield,very dry,hard bounces and knee-high rough,the grass is so tall and thick we found a tribe of pygmies living just off the 16th![/size]
[size=5]I guess at heart I would like to go all vintage but still want the bit extra from the Ti![/size]
[size=5]You boys,Kirasdad and Scooter have written some really nice stuff,far,far better than the tripe churned out by the so-called 'staff writers' who appear to be clueless,it's always a pleasure to read your posts,thank you and may they long continue.[/size]

[profsmitty]

OK, Kirasdad, Scooter, et al - is it possible to construct a bag with modern or even near modern clubs that would be consistent with the spirit of the classic golf that we love? If we leave the driver question for a minute, would a bag consisting of:

A modern (post Fg-17 - MB 712ish) set of forged blades (1-PW w/stiff or xstiff shafts) (8 clubs or more up to 10)
Sand Wedge with conforming grooves (1)
Any putter of classic length without insert face (1)
Any combination of fairway woods (2-5 inclusive) of any age with [u]steel shaft[/u] (3 or fewer depending on irons)

be considered a classically-consistent "set for all seasons"?

Would we consider a small headed iron set (Ping Eye 2, Titleist CB, forged Mizzies, etc) "classically consistent?

Even assuming all of the preceding, we would be left to deal with the driver. Is there any modern-ish alternative to a wooden driver? Of course, Louisville, Tad Moore (I think) do make a modern wooden headed driver that is available with a steel shaft. But sans one of these, a classically-consistent bag would almost have to be a historic club. If this is true, we must be honest that there would be a distance penalty off the tee to some degree.

Could the distance penalty be eliminated by the tee selection? If we play even a modern-ish non-driver bag and classic, steel shafted wooden driver from a forward tee, wouldn't we be both consistent with our classic golf mores and competitive with modern equipped players?

Pardon the stream of conscience rant. I want to find a set that I could play that would not violate my principles but I don't want to place an un-solveable penalty on myself or listen to the non-classic community b**** that we are crazies.

Is the problem solved for us by being willing to play equipment appropriate tees?

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1374235293' post='7489670']
I want to find a set that I could play that would not violate my principles but I don't want to place an un-solveable penalty on myself or listen to the non-classic community b**** that we are crazies.

Is the problem solved for us by being willing to play equipment appropriate tees?
[/quote]


The only real difference I find is with the driver off the tee.

As I see it you have a few options:

1. Play a modern driver, with everything else classic in intent (irons = blades, putter = blade or Bullseye) off the normal Mens back tees
2. As above but play a persimmon driver - and accept that you will be playing alot of fairway woods and long irons (or move tee forwards)
3. Play a nearly modern driver, but with a steel shaft. I have a "classic shape" Titleist 983K with 43" steel S/300 in it that feels ok to me in a "classic" set up. A 975D or 983E would also work.

I've tried all of these combos in club competitions. It's surprising how well you can compete!

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1374225299' post='7489006']
I believe I've sort of convinced myself that they are super forgiving to justify my use of them to score.
[/quote]

Thanks Kirasdad, and appreciate the compliment. But I think this response highlights the brainwashing we've all been through. We're convinced we have to score well, so we use whatever club we think will allow us to score well. And since virtually everyone says "blades are harder and less forgiving", we are now convinced that we'll never achieve our best score unless we use our Eye 2s. I think I'm just about ready to throw off the schackles of this type of mindset.

Do an experiment. Grab one of your Precisions (let's say the 7i), and hold it at address. Immediately then grab your Eye 2 7i, hold it at address, and look down at it.



Bet you threw up in your mouth a little.....

We know the Eye2 was really a watershed moment in the word of golf irons. Although it revolutionized the concepts of forgiveness and playability for golfers, maybe this was the moment when aesthetics took a backseat to functionality. And subsequent to this, we have been cursed with an amazingly horrible group of hideous irons that purport functionality and eschew aesthetics.


[quote name='okesa' timestamp='1374234483' post='7489592']
[size=5]...[/size][size=5]Sadly even at 60 I'm still a combative and competitive type who gets really pissed off at seeing golfers with worse swings launch it past me because of technology...[/size]

[size=5]... people in general have little or no perception of quality,a mindset brought on by the 'disposable' society that we live in and also not helped by the fact that manufactures now insist on churning out two new models a year when in the 'old days' it would probably have been every 18 months to 2 years...[/size]

[size=5]...I would be happy to wager that most new golfers would have no idea about Apex II's,FG17's,Ram TG or Mac blades,they simply don't understand them and that applies across the board to quality tailoring,shoes,shotguns,rifles,motorcycles really anything that took skill,craftsmanship and experience to produce...[/size]

[size=5]...I guess at heart I would like to go all vintage but still want the bit extra from the Ti!...[/size]
[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words as well Okesa, and it sounds like you have the exact same issues I do with going to an all classic bag. And yes, people are now obsessed with either quantity, appearance, or brand, and are less concerned with craftsmanship. I still use a toaster from the 1960s because it works properly. Toast brown on the outside, soft in the middle, and only possible with a properly built toaster with adequate heating elements. And yes, I use real butter on my toast.

Unfortunately, in our consumer-driven society, people simply [u]wouldn't pay [/u]for the type of quality we see any more. Imagine how much a set of FG-17s, Hogans, or Mac blades would cost to make today? Made in the USA, forged in the USA, with the same attention to care and detail that went into the ones we own and game.

I'd suggest such a set would likely cost in the $2,000 range, and whichever company that made them would likely have to close it's doors within the 1st year.

And maybe this is also a product of our instant gratification the younger generation has as well. When I was young, I beat the varnish off my borrowed ladies 3W hitting ball after ball in the park for hours on end, all in an attempt to improve my game. I putted on the carpet at home for hours, took my putter to the mini-golf range to practice, the went to the driving range to hit a bucket with the blade irons I learned on. The clubs were not forgiving, and the only way to not embarrass yourself on the course was to practice, practice, then, you guessed it, practice.

But who has time for practice these days? I just want to go to the course, hit my drives 280, take a poke at the ball with an iron that has the head of a frying pan, then use my 80 lb mallet putter to putt. Why have to work at golfing better? Let's buy some game. And I disagree with any person who says you can't buy a game. Give a noob a 3h and a 3i blade and see how well they do with both. Or a Bullseye vs. an Odyssey mallet. Or a 460cc behemoth vs. a 200cc wood. Right or not, advances in club size and technology have brought us to the point where strokes can be bought through gear.

And the manufacturers know this, and now have enough experience selling game that they know constant product introductions, each promising something even better than what came before works. So they do it. And the mindless mass of consumers buy it.

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1374235293' post='7489670']
OK, Kirasdad, Scooter, et al - is it possible to construct a bag with modern or even near modern clubs that would be consistent with the spirit of the classic golf that we love? If we leave the driver question for a minute, would a bag consisting of:

A modern (post Fg-17 - MB 712ish) set of forged blades (1-PW w/stiff or xstiff shafts) (8 clubs or more up to 10)
Sand Wedge with conforming grooves (1)
Any putter of classic length without insert face (1)
Any combination of fairway woods (2-5 inclusive) of any age with [u]steel shaft[/u] (3 or fewer depending on irons)

be considered a classically-consistent "set for all seasons"?

Would we consider a small headed iron set (Ping Eye 2, Titleist CB, forged Mizzies, etc) "classically consistent?

Even assuming all of the preceding, we would be left to deal with the driver. Is there any modern-ish alternative to a wooden driver? Of course, Louisville, Tad Moore (I think) do make a modern wooden headed driver that is available with a steel shaft. But sans one of these, a classically-consistent bag would almost have to be a historic club. If this is true, we must be honest that there would be a distance penalty off the tee to some degree.

Could the distance penalty be eliminated by the tee selection? If we play even a modern-ish non-driver bag and classic, steel shafted wooden driver from a forward tee, wouldn't we be both consistent with our classic golf mores and competitive with modern equipped players?

Pardon the stream of conscience rant. I want to find a set that I could play that would not violate my principles but I don't want to place an un-solveable penalty on myself or listen to the non-classic community b**** that we are crazies.

Is the problem solved for us by being willing to play equipment appropriate tees?
[/quote]

First of all, the non-classic community already thinks we are crazies. That is, until it's betting time on the first hole. When they see Eye 2s, or blades, and a 2 or 1 iron, and a modern driver, it usually makes them a little more reluctant to throw out the bets. Besides us all liking classics, I think we're also all likely pretty decent golfers. Probably not a lot of regulars in this forum with double-digit handicaps (and not that there is anything wrong in wanting to play classics regardless of handicap). This isn't the equipment forum - no-one making fun of you here for playing what you want.

Back to topic, I think Ol_Pardner referenced this in another thread, where he stated he'll play with some older gentlemen who do not hit as far as he does. In his mind, the lesser difference from using wood compensates for the fact they all use the same teebox. Because, as much as we'd like to debate it, large titanium woods will give a golfer more distance on a well struck ball, and more distance on a mishit ball.

This being said, moving to a forward tee, to me, would depend on the length of the course you're playing. If it is a traditional shorter layout, then no, play from the whites's or the blues. On one of these newfangled monster layouts with 425yd Par 4s, moving up a tee makes more sense to me. For example, my home track is a fairly short 9, par 35 course where my second iron shots on Par 4s (assuming a good drive) are 7i, 9i, 8i, 9i. Playing vintage, these move to more traditional 5, 7, 6, 7. Not much point for me to move up to the red tees. Hitting 5i into a green completes the "vintage" experience.

However, if you can yank 220 out of a wood driver on a par 4, and are still hitting 3w into the green, that can become a painful and agonizing day.

And if playing vintage is to be fun, and is to be a throwback to remind us of our days as younger golfers, then hitting 5i into a green is fun. Dropping darts on the greens all day with 8i and up gets pretty tiring (heehee).

It also depends on who you're playing with as well. If you're playing with monster forearm, tour-issue, brand-emblazoned golf monsters, I'd pull out the modern driver, and few wedges. If you're out for a nice day with the kids, or some seniors, or even by yourself, do what others do, and move up tees if they do. And my experience has been that most seniors and kids don't like the monster courses anyways, and prefer (like I do) the old-growth timber, narrow winding courses, usually with a stream or river and lots of wildlife and peacefulness.

On a completely different note:

The whole term "classiscally consistent" is a bit troublesome for me, and I'd hate to say "No GI irons", or even "No Metal Woods". Why? In 30 years when those kids playing Amp and Rocketballz stuff become classic golfers, guess what? These are their classics. To us, a classic or vintage club is always something that means something to you at a certain time in your life, and the era from which you choose your classic bag will reflect this.

I think we also get into a bit of semantical argument here as well. There are a number of terms that get used interchangeably in this forum (i.e. classic, vintage, traditional), but these are subjective terms all based on where one is in their journey of life.

For example, I have now gotten rid of all my modern irons, and everything I have is early-1980's. This was a significant time for me (as detailed in my "Going backwards in time" thread), and my irons to choose from are all period appropriate. Eye 2s, Apex IIs, and FG-17. I have no issue in playing any of these in a "classic" bag - heck, they're all 30 years old already. So no, I do not think that the [u]type[/u] of club should automatically eliminate it from being gamed. But this is appropriate for [u]me and my "classics" due to my age[/u]. Are these "vintage"? Or does vintage refer more to age, while classic refers more to a "legendary" aspect about the club?

I'm not really sure about the answer to this, other than I think someone who has 20 years on me may disagree with my selection of "classics", as they are "modern clubs" to them. For them, a minor GI iron (like the Eye 2) may never hit their classic bag, simply as in their significant years, GI clubs didn't exist. This would not and would never be a classic or vintage club to them.

To me Mr. Moderator, your question about clubs that will make a bag that will not "violate your principles" can only be answered by yourself. If an Eye 2 is a classic for you, then game it. If the FG-17s are a classic for you, then game them. If you have some early issue metal woods that mix wood and metal, or are still the same size as traditional wooden FWs, and you like them, and they're period appropriate for your bag, then I'd game them. Anser putter? Sure. If you associate traditional with wood, then buy a new Louisville driver. Your bag is what is appropriate for you, your era, and where you find your golf muse.

And funny enough, even gaming traditional irons such as the Fg-17 gives a golfer no true disadvantage golfing against an iron player who is using modern blades. We just see the value in playing irons that cost us 1/8th of what they paid, that differ in no technologically material way from what they're playing.

Back to the main topic:

Regardless, I agree that the driver issue is unresolveable, so I don't really think one can have a "bag for all seasons". There really has to be two bags; one for scoring, and one for golfing. Maybe for many of us, we find ourselves with classic clubs and in this forum, as we've done too much of the former, and really need to do more of the latter. And something inside us knows this.

Boy talk about a stream of consciousness in response!

[profsmitty]

The moreihavestruggled with this topic, the more convinced I am that the problem is paradigmatic. As such, we have a very interesting task before us. How can we talk about classically-consistent clubs with enough specificity to be meaningful but with enough latitude to keep sincere folks from playing the relativism card?

The most obvious place to start (unless we want to end the discussion by throwing up our hands and/or resorting to a relativist stance) is to decide if we can define what "classical" means in relation to golf.

I propose that classical equipment was judged more for its aesthetic qualities than its performance characteristics.

What say ye?

[Kirasdad]

Now I know where Prof. Smitty gets his nom de plume. I have to give that a lot of thought, and I'll need a dictionary at hand as well. Until I can comment with some degree of lucidity on the proposal, which I think is fascinating, I just have this to say...

I am playing in two tournaments in a row, this weekend, and the next. Inspired by Scooter and his rumination on how we are so fixated on our SCORE and how we match up, I say screw it! I'm putting my battered ( but not beaten) Hogans in the bag with my basketball on a stick for length. Those are the irons I really want to play, so I'm playing them. I don't know whether I will be effective, or just aesthetic (thank you Prof. S) but it should be fun.

[okesa]

[size=5]Profsmitty,a fine proposal but with inherent dangers as there are many people 'out there' who view their modern,orange badged spanners as aesthetically pleasing,beauty "is in the eye of the beholder" n'est pas?[/size]
[size=5]Indeed,there is a manufacturer producing a tin monster with a brassy overlay on parts to give it a certain look and labelled it 'Classic'.[/size]
[size=5]The only question I have regarding that is "Classic what?" Mistake?Tackiness?I can't help but smile to think that the marketing boys hope we will favourably compare something that looks like a toy club Woolworths might have sold with a Macgregor or Penna persimmon.[/size]
[size=5]Ultimately I think it is for the individual to decide what constitutes 'classic' equipment,in my own case they have to be blades,preferably forged and hand finished although there are some cast clubs that would qualify.I would possibly include blades designed and made in the 1990's like the Mizuno TP-9 and TP-19 that Faldo used which really was about the end of 'proper' golf as far as I'm concerned and a period that offers great opportunity to buy top quality irons at low cost because they haven't reached the 'collectable' point yet.[/size]

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1374296270' post='7496726']
The moreihavestruggled with this topic, the more convinced I am that the problem is paradigmatic. As such, we have a very interesting task before us. How can we talk about classically-consistent clubs with enough specificity to be meaningful but with enough latitude to keep sincere folks from playing the relativism card?

The most obvious place to start (unless we want to end the discussion by throwing up our hands and/or resorting to a relativist stance) is to decide if we can define what "classical" means in relation to golf.

I propose that classical equipment was judged more for its aesthetic qualities than its performance characteristics.

What say ye?
[/quote]

Interesting thought, and one I mentioned in my post as well. The Eye 2s truly represent function over form, and seem like THE moment when it all changed.

And yes, paradigmatic is an apt term, especially if we do want to keep the discussion from sliding into full relativism. Unfortunately, the semantical issues here are equally difficult to resolve, as any term such as classic or vintage is period or generation specific.

One suggestion I would have is similar to what one of our members suggested in another thread - we can collect clubs and define them by decade. So classic clubs from the 1800s until the 1980s could be labeled as "70s classics" or "50s classics" et al. This now removes the subjectivity, as the 80s were the 80s no matter when you were born.

For example, I can now then say, "I play 80s classics".

Then in 15 more years, newer "classic clubs from the 90s can join the party.

Thoughts?

[profsmitty]

We all know what "classical music" encompasses without having to have a fixed temporal boundary. I wonder if we can't "define" classical golf equipment in a similar way. It is a genre'-based definition. Scooter - your identification of Eye2's is brilliant. They are a watershed in the history of golf equipment. When golf equipment began to be defined by performance characteristics instead of the inherent beauty is profound moment in golf time. After that, nothing was the same for "them". Golf became a sporting competition instead of a game, an art. Equipment that hasn't crossed that paradigmatic step is classical. Bladed irons are indescribable in the language of that other paradigm. We have no language to describe a Rocket BallZ thing in ours.

I have a thought that this conversation is one of the best I have read on this subject. Please keep the conversation going. Let's find the others out there that are lost in the "golf as sport" paradigm - Strangers in a strange land" if you will. We need to draw them home to a classic world view.

Please continue.

BTW - please don't refer to me as the Moderator guy. I'm just smitty here.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Hey Smitty (just Smitty from now on),

Thanks for the response, and I agree this is an excellent topic to be continuing. Oddly enough, we can almost use golf equipment as a barometer of society, and how it has become unrecogniseable from what it was even 25 years ago.

Though your description of "classic music" I do find amusing. Humans have a little to much hubris for their era they exist in, and so we feel confident in stating that we know what "classical" music is. Unfortunately, everything is temporal - 400 years ago golf didn't even exist, let alone computers! Not sure if you ever watched Futurama, but this is one of the most brilliant scenes ever in the show...it wasn't just funny, it also made me realize just how temporal everything is.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-1F_iIIuw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-1F_iIIuw[/url]

Really, since my "classic" period of the 1980's, we've seen so many good and bad things happen in the world. And although the standard of living for most people in North America has improved, the quality of our society continues to disintegrate. Celebrity culture, materialism, selfishness, a decline in civility, consumerism, and constant instant gratification have replaced so many of the traditional values we used to have. Kids run loose without parental care, all so the folks can work to make money to buy a house bigger than they need, and cars fancier than they need. Impressing others with one's wealth is now expected, when at one time it was considered vulgar.

Mind you, as a Generation X'er, I spent more time with my grandma who instilled me with her values, rather than my self-absorbed baby boomer parents who were too worried about themselves and their own indulgences to worry about the kids. And the roosters have certainly come home to roost in Generation Y, seen by the many young dudes in the other forums who think hitting a golf ball at others is justified if the other party has somehow done something to slow down or ruin their round of golf.

These days, I almost prefer to golf alone, rather than be paired up with people who don't understand the history and etiquette of the game - who cheat at score, and do everything to beat you. Golf isn't about doing your best and beating your best; it's a zero-sum game where I win, you lose. Ha ha!

Golf drops in popularity, while MMA increases. People don't fix ball marks, instead of when you fixed yours, and one other. And quality, North American built products are no longer popular, as how can people own homes, boats, quads, luxury cars, etc. and be able to afford it all if we don't exploit the cheap labor that exists in other parts of the world.

Maybe in a way, classic equipment (regardless of our era) takes us back to a simpler time (every time seems simpler these days), when all you knew about golf equipment was what you saw on TV or read in Golf Digest, when we still had the outstanding morals and strength of a generation that fought two World Wars, and when people treated each other respectfully and decently. Especially on a golf course.

Waxing poetic on a Saturday morning,

Scooter

[rileyj]

Wow there are some really well thought out offerings in this thread. Will need to re-read a few times to take it all in. I think this is the most important conversation for traditional golfers. Are we in it for nostalgia? Or do we care about bringing traditional ideas into the future, regardless of form?

My position has evolved. I try not to use the word "vintage" anymore... I use the word "traditional" and I think words matter. I define "traditional" clubs as clubs intended to maximize feel and thereby improve the performance of your very best shots. This converse to this idea is "modern" club design in which the primary purpose is to improve your worst shots i.e. game improvement.

Therefore I consider modern blades traditional because they are still designed with workability and feel as the primary goals. Cavity backs and huge driver heads are "modern" because they aim to minimize damage from mishits and poor swings at the cost of feel and workability.

[profsmitty]

I am at a poetry conference so I am naturally feeling poetic. The conference is in Taos, NM. If I wasn't feeling poetic, here, now - I have wasted on heck of a lot of money and and heck of a lot of time!!!

We do what we do to touch beauty. If we find nostalgia in that beauty, it is only to lament that we find so little of it in the present. It is almost like the collective we have found that we have no time or patience to find something that isn't flashing at us or indulging us.

When I look at a Hogan or Wood driver, I am seeing the reason I do what I do. I can't claim to drag my broken body along because I am good at what I do. That train has left the station.

I do what I do because looking down at the gleam of a set of forged irons, the swirls of grain, the mists across the fairway, the sweep of a green in the sunset has got to be the same reason that all of those who went before me, did what I do.

What I wonder is: when the muscles have loosened and the joints stiffened, will the collective we do what you and I and Scooter and the other do. Will they love the game as well as they claim to love the sport?

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1374347042' post='7499874']
If we find nostalgia in that beauty, it is only to lament that we find so little of it in the present.
[/quote]

This is officially the best thing I've ever read on Wrx. Thanks Smitty.

[okesa]

[size=5]A smacked botty and early bed for you Scooter because computers and golf both existed 400 years ago.......[/size]

[okesa]

[size=5]In Scotland in 1457 an edict was issued prohibiting 'gowf' as it distracted men from archery practice.[/size]

[size=5]Check out the 'Antikythera'.[/size]

[Kirasdad]

Wow, I play 18 holes and come back and Milton and Samuel Johnson have shown up on the thread. Fabulous posts folks.

Prof. S, Taos is a stunning place, and I agree, if you can't wax poetic there, you've left your rhyming couplets in your luggage. That part of NM is as atmospheric as it gets. The light, the feel of the countryside is really magical. Georgia O Keefe was no dummy. The paintings almost paint themselves...no offense to her obvious gifts as an artist.

I digress. Just got back from my first competitive round using traditional vintage classic blades ( I think that about covers the nomenclature) and it was a BIG SUCCESS! Not because my partner and I won our match, that was nice, but was secondary to my victory over myself. Started out a little shaky, more nervous than usual I think. Hit some squirrelly ones, the devil on the shoulder starts in on me, "you are going to screw this up for your partner using these clubs, they're not classic or vintage, they're OLD dude, OLD!" "You better get in the garage and get those Pings out for tomorrow, maybe you can salvage things on day two.". We are three down at this point. "Shut up, shut up" I said, to myself of course. Fighting the inner demons, this is what modern golf has done to me. Save face, look good, look the SAME as everyone else. Be safe. I start hitting some shots, an 8 iron to 4 feet for a birdie, we are two down. My partner birdies, one down. I get up and down from a nasty downhill lie in a bunker. Even. Five holes to go, our opponents start to collapse, and on the 17th I cut a 4 iron into a par three to 20 feet, where everyone else is hitting a GI six iron. They miss the green, I 2 putt. Done. Match over. This is, of course, not the real point for even if we had lost, it would have been ok. I think proved something to myself. I hung in there psychologically and hit some quality shots with clubs that were built in 1959, older than both the guys we were playing. I had a wonderful time.

Keep up the great word smithing on this thread. It is a pleasure to read.

[MrParr1Noid]

The thing that I miss most about the classical era stuff, clubs, balls, and such, is when I had the back of a dock worker, and the arms of a blacksmith...

A most enjoyable collection of thoughts here guys...Don't stop now...

[ScooterMcTavish]

Seeing the level of discussion in this thread, I have been ruminating over the "Bag for all seasons" question over the weekend. And I hope to have done it some justice below. Why ponder what you read on a web board over a weekend? I think that this question (thanks Kirasdad) isn't fundamentally about golf equipment. It is about who you are as a person (touched on very well by Smitty), and what does the bag you take to the course reflect about you, and what you believe.

Interesting that in the one day short of five years I have been a member of GolfWRX, I am now posting my [u][b]1,000th [/b][/u]post. Fairly stable average of 200 posts per year. And when I started connecting with other golfers five years ago, it was as I came back to the game seriously after a 20 year hiatus of no more than a few rounds annually. I think my first post was in the golf ball forum, and I believe most of my posts are still in said forum. Maybe for a kid that grew up a bit hand-to-mouth, a golf ball held so much promise for improving your game, but it was at least affordable and attainable.

And five years later, and 999 posts later, I find my 1,000th post being placed in a forum that I thought I was too young for, and in a forum that talks about the clubs I tried to escape. As I now had more means then before, it was finally time for ME to buy some game, and get the magical set of clubs that would make me scratch. Because, when younger, I knew, yes, I KNEW that if only I had better clubs, I could have been great. Maybe got a scholarship? Maybe had a ticket out of the grinding poverty of my childhood?

As we do learn later in life, "Maybe" and a $1 will get you a cup of coffee, and that's about it. Like the thread about "Benefits of Getting older", life gives us such a healthy perspective on what we thought and didn't think in our youth.

And five years later, and numerous iron sets later (Dunlop Quattro, Nickent 3dx Hybrid, Nickent ARC Blades, Cleveland TA6, Ping Eye 2, Staff FG-17), and numerous drivers later (Dunlop Deep Distance, Staff Spine, Speedline Draw, G10, Speedline Fast 10, G10 Draw), I have come full circle, and find myself back playing the same clubs I so desperately wanted to escape. Every new set I bought held the promise of something better. Every new set I bought was supposed to deliver some magic thing that the one before it would not.

And as I tore up my shoulder, and wrenched my rapidly ageing back as I started a blindingly agonizing quest to beat 80 two years ago, as I stretched and exercised and popped pills to combat the pain, as golf ceased being fun, and started becoming work, I was ready to quit. I got my swing speed from ~85 up to ~100. I was playing urethane balls, and had developed some excellent technique around the greens. I developed an in to out driver swing. And finally, yes finally, I broke 80. And this happened only after I ditched the heavy clubs, and moved all the way back to the featherweight Ping Eye 2 irons and a vintage Ping Pal putter.

This was the crack in the marketing. This was the proof, yes [u]proof[/u] that the manufacturers, despite promising the "hottest this", "longest this" and "most forgiving that" could not deliver an iron or putter that played any better than a club that had been made almost 30 years ago. And it was also an eye-opener personally for me as well. To break 80, what did I gain, and what did I give up? Hours with my family? Obsessing over golf clubs and gear and balls on the Internet instead of spending time researching ways to help my youngest with a learning disability? Time spent pouring over golf marketing material instead of reading the books I used to love reading, like Dickens? Anger, stress, and frustration every time a double bogey snuck onto a score card due to one momentary loss of focus? Hollow victory, in many ways. So much of life had passed by, all for a piece of paper with a number written on it.

So to be able to write a number on my scorecard that started with a "7", I:
- Tore up my back and shoulder
- Spent time that would have been better spent on other pursuits obsessing over golf
- Wasted time and money researching and purchasing gear that did nothing to help my game
- Learned to hate golf (on certain days and at certain times)

But everything in life does have some balance. And there were good lessons to be learned here too. I really had it reinforced that a good swing is the most important part of scoring. I had my eyes opened to the marketing machine, and how much it promised, and how little it truly delivered to someone who doesn't need the help of forgiving clubs (i.e. a beginner). I learned it's not about forgiveness - it is about a golfer having the right set of clubs for them, and the confidence to play any shot they need with them.

And it reminded me that as much as my family eschews materialism, and we made serious decisions around this (my wife stayed home with the kids because that was more important to us than fancier cars, or a house larger than we need), that we can all still become victims to our consumer society. When we buy things to impress others, where is the value? When we buy things to please ourselves, that is better. But when you can't find satisfaction in these "things", and you continue to replace these things with more things, or other things, or bigger things, and yet each feels as hollow as the item that preceded it, then where do you go?

That is officially time to hit the reset button. That is officially the time to bag a $20 set of blades and woods you bought off a classified ad, and a $4 putter you bought in a thrift store, because that is simply the only way to truly reset.

I believe this is a very roundabout way for me to get back to the OP, and Kirasdad, that is a fantastic story about how you gamed in your tournament. Sure you kept the "basketball on a stick" in the bag, and I do not think anyone would criticise you for not being "true to your beliefs" as Smitty stated, especially in tournament play. However, for some people, especially how they're wired, there is no "soft" reset. There is no other option than a "hard reset".

And this is true for me.

So, scores be damned, partner be damned, society be damned, I am officially off the train, the hard reset has been done, and the metal woods will be going on hiatus for a while. They may come back at some point - I have a Cobra being picked up today I'd like to try as an experiment. I do like my G10 Draw quite a bit as well - I hit it very pure, and very straight, and it forces me to put a good swing on it.

So what.

Because ultimately I will play these clubs because I want to score. And when I want to score, I will again begin to obsess over breaking par. And irons. And gear. And putters. And golf balls. And yet again, I will find the game that I played as a kid, the game that composed some of the best and most vivid memories of my childhood, the game that has taught me so much about sportsmanship, etiquette, and history will become what it should never become again.

Work.

We've discussed the paradoxes inherent in trying to match old and new clubs under specific circumstances; almost as if scoring and enjoyment and aesthetic beauty are mutually exclusive. And in many ways, I think all of us in this forum know this isn't a paradox - it is about "How can I justify keeping a non-vintage driver in my vintage bag" even though we know there is a mutual exclusivity here. We want to keep the modern driver, because if things go wrong, it keeps things from being as horrific as they could be. It is a way to sneak some element of "score" into to what we have determined is to be "fun".

So maybe there is a bag for all seasons. I still haven't found the right wood driver yet. This may take some time. But I'm already feeling really good about the 3 and 5 woods I have in my bag, and know that if I keep my eyes open, this "right wood" will eventually fall into my lap. Maybe the Hogan 2W laminate with the Apex 4 sitting in my shed is the answer. I don't know yet.

But the point is, with all the things I've been through in my life, and the fights I've had against (what seems to be) the universe in all its glory aligned against me, it is time to reset, and remember the things that are most important. Spending a few hours communing with nature, hitting a golf ball, and appreciating that this is even possible due to the wealth of our society is one of these things. Enjoying a beautiful shot that worked out exactly as you had planned is one of these things. Golfing with a senior, or a child, and learning or teaching about the game is one of these things.

Focus on your journey on the golf course, not the destination (score). Like a car trip from the 50's, the enjoyment is in the distance between home and the destination. Even if the destination wasn't great, enjoy getting there. If the destination was great, view it as an added bonus. And keeping that coffee can on a stick in the bag will always be a reminder that I am looking at the destination, and failing to enjoy the journey.

Everyone has a bag for all seasons. I'm working on mine. How about you guys?

Whew, wanted to save something special for my 1,000 post, and hope I have.

Scooter

[okesa]

[size=5]Indeed you have Scooter,well done!Equally to Kirasdad for the piece on your match,I enjoy reading well written 'reports' like this as it's all about real golf that we play as amateurs and reflects very well the mental turmoil that I'm sure we all experience at some point but what a great result too![/size]
[size=5]I have had a splendid day today,shot a gross 79 with 983k driver,Ram Tour Grind 4,6,8,pw.Staff JPII sw,TPM-10 putter,first time in a while that I've scored under 80 gross (used to be normal) and felt really comfortable with the irons even though they only arrived this morning.[/size]

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='okesa' timestamp='1374519713' post='7515356']
[size=5]I have had a splendid day today,shot a gross 79 with 983k driver,Ram Tour Grind 4,6,8,pw.Staff JPII sw,TPM-10 putter,first time in a while that I've scored under 80 gross (used to be normal) and felt really comfortable with the irons even though they only arrived this morning.[/size]
[/quote]

Well, you used Rams, so of course you played better.
(says the Ram Ho)

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='MrParr1Noid' timestamp='1374376972' post='7502514']
The thing that I miss most about the classical era stuff, clubs, balls, and such, is when I had the back of a dock worker, and the arms of a blacksmith...

A most enjoyable collection of thoughts here guys...Don't stop now...
[/quote]

I never used to even think about my back. Today it constantly reminds me that it is there.

Also, as we travel on the chronological express, many of us contract Furniture Disease. That occurs when your chest sinks into your drawers.