A Set For All Seasons

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1374504914' post='7513172']
Seeing the level of discussion in this thread, I have been ruminating over the "Bag for all seasons" question over the weekend. And I hope to have done it some justice below. Why ponder what you read on a web board over a weekend? I think that this question (thanks Kirasdad) isn't fundamentally about golf equipment. It is about who you are as a person (touched on very well by Smitty), and what does the bag you take to the course reflect about you, and what you believe.

Interesting that in the one day short of five years I have been a member of GolfWRX, I am now posting my [u][b]1,000th [/b][/u]post. Fairly stable average of 200 posts per year. And when I started connecting with other golfers five years ago, it was as I came back to the game seriously after a 20 year hiatus of no more than a few rounds annually. I think my first post was in the golf ball forum, and I believe most of my posts are still in said forum. Maybe for a kid that grew up a bit hand-to-mouth, a golf ball held so much promise for improving your game, but it was at least affordable and attainable.




And five years later, and 999 posts later, I find my 1,000th post being placed in a forum that I thought I was too young for, and in a forum that talks about the clubs I tried to escape. As I now had more means then before, it was finally time for ME to buy some game, and get the magical set of clubs that would make me scratch. Because, when younger, I knew, yes, I KNEW that if only I had better clubs, I could have been great. Maybe got a scholarship? Maybe had a ticket out of the grinding poverty of my childhood?

As we do learn later in life, "Maybe" and a $1 will get you a cup of coffee, and that's about it. Like the thread about "Benefits of Getting older", life gives us such a healthy perspective on what we thought and didn't think in our youth.

And five years later, and numerous iron sets later (Dunlop Quattro, Nickent 3dx Hybrid, Nickent ARC Blades, Cleveland TA6, Ping Eye 2, Staff FG-17), and numerous drivers later (Dunlop Deep Distance, Staff Spine, Speedline Draw, G10, Speedline Fast 10, G10 Draw), I have come full circle, and find myself back playing the same clubs I so desperately wanted to escape. Every new set I bought held the promise of something better. Every new set I bought was supposed to deliver some magic thing that the one before it would not.

And as I tore up my shoulder, and wrenched my rapidly ageing back as I started a blindingly agonizing quest to beat 80 two years ago, as I stretched and exercised and popped pills to combat the pain, as golf ceased being fun, and started becoming work, I was ready to quit. I got my swing speed from ~85 up to ~100. I was playing urethane balls, and had developed some excellent technique around the greens. I developed an in to out driver swing. And finally, yes finally, I broke 80. And this happened only after I ditched the heavy clubs, and moved all the way back to the featherweight Ping Eye 2 irons and a vintage Ping Pal putter.

This was the crack in the marketing. This was the proof, yes [u]proof[/u] that the manufacturers, despite promising the "hottest this", "longest this" and "most forgiving that" could not deliver an iron or putter that played any better than a club that had been made almost 30 years ago. And it was also an eye-opener personally for me as well. To break 80, what did I gain, and what did I give up? Hours with my family? Obsessing over golf clubs and gear and balls on the Internet instead of spending time researching ways to help my youngest with a learning disability? Time spent pouring over golf marketing material instead of reading the books I used to love reading, like Dickens? Anger, stress, and frustration every time a double bogey snuck onto a score card due to one momentary loss of focus? Hollow victory, in many ways. So much of life had passed by, all for a piece of paper with a number written on it.

So to be able to write a number on my scorecard that started with a "7", I:
- Tore up my back and shoulder
- Spent time that would have been better spent on other pursuits obsessing over golf
- Wasted time and money researching and purchasing gear that did nothing to help my game
- Learned to hate golf (on certain days and at certain times)

But everything in life does have some balance. And there were good lessons to be learned here too. I really had it reinforced that a good swing is the most important part of scoring. I had my eyes opened to the marketing machine, and how much it promised, and how little it truly delivered to someone who doesn't need the help of forgiving clubs (i.e. a beginner). I learned it's not about forgiveness - it is about a golfer having the right set of clubs for them, and the confidence to play any shot they need with them.

And it reminded me that as much as my family eschews materialism, and we made serious decisions around this (my wife stayed home with the kids because that was more important to us than fancier cars, or a house larger than we need), that we can all still become victims to our consumer society. When we buy things to impress others, where is the value? When we buy things to please ourselves, that is better. But when you can't find satisfaction in these "things", and you continue to replace these things with more things, or other things, or bigger things, and yet each feels as hollow as the item that preceded it, then where do you go?

That is officially time to hit the reset button. That is officially the time to bag a $20 set of blades and woods you bought off a classified ad, and a $4 putter you bought in a thrift store, because that is simply the only way to truly reset.

I believe this is a very roundabout way for me to get back to the OP, and Kirasdad, that is a fantastic story about how you gamed in your tournament. Sure you kept the "basketball on a stick" in the bag, and I do not think anyone would criticise you for not being "true to your beliefs" as Smitty stated, especially in tournament play. However, for some people, especially how they're wired, there is no "soft" reset. There is no other option than a "hard reset".

And this is true for me.

So, scores be damned, partner be damned, society be damned, I am officially off the train, the hard reset has been done, and the metal woods will be going on hiatus for a while. They may come back at some point - I have a Cobra being picked up today I'd like to try as an experiment. I do like my G10 Draw quite a bit as well - I hit it very pure, and very straight, and it forces me to put a good swing on it.

So what.

Because ultimately I will play these clubs because I want to score. And when I want to score, I will again begin to obsess over breaking par. And irons. And gear. And putters. And golf balls. And yet again, I will find the game that I played as a kid, the game that composed some of the best and most vivid memories of my childhood, the game that has taught me so much about sportsmanship, etiquette, and history will become what it should never become again.

Work.

We've discussed the paradoxes inherent in trying to match old and new clubs under specific circumstances; almost as if scoring and enjoyment and aesthetic beauty are mutually exclusive. And in many ways, I think all of us in this forum know this isn't a paradox - it is about "How can I justify keeping a non-vintage driver in my vintage bag" even though we know there is a mutual exclusivity here. We want to keep the modern driver, because if things go wrong, it keeps things from being as horrific as they could be. It is a way to sneak some element of "score" into to what we have determined is to be "fun".

So maybe there is a bag for all seasons. I still haven't found the right wood driver yet. This may take some time. But I'm already feeling really good about the 3 and 5 woods I have in my bag, and know that if I keep my eyes open, this "right wood" will eventually fall into my lap. Maybe the Hogan 2W laminate with the Apex 4 sitting in my shed is the answer. I don't know yet.

But the point is, with all the things I've been through in my life, and the fights I've had against (what seems to be) the universe in all its glory aligned against me, it is time to reset, and remember the things that are most important. Spending a few hours communing with nature, hitting a golf ball, and appreciating that this is even possible due to the wealth of our society is one of these things. Enjoying a beautiful shot that worked out exactly as you had planned is one of these things. Golfing with a senior, or a child, and learning or teaching about the game is one of these things.

Focus on your journey on the golf course, not the destination (score). Like a car trip from the 50's, the enjoyment is in the distance between home and the destination. Even if the destination wasn't great, enjoy getting there. If the destination was great, view it as an added bonus. And keeping that coffee can on a stick in the bag will always be a reminder that I am looking at the destination, and failing to enjoy the journey.

Everyone has a bag for all seasons. I'm working on mine. How about you guys?

Whew, wanted to save something special for my 1,000 post, and hope I have.

Scooter



Wow. I'm blown away. I'd say special.
No time to write now. I'll post later.
Thank you for this really thoughtful post.
[/quote]

[ScooterMcTavish]

Thanks Kirasdad,

And I really mean thank you. I have not felt so good about golfing in years, and would not have had this opportunity had you not asked the question.

And Smitty, I know we live in different parts of North America, but playing a round with you is now on my bucket list.

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks for sharing. Nice to know there are kindred spirits in the golfing universe.

[ScooterMcTavish]

And OSR, I'd love to play a round with you too. Never been to SC, and maybe one day I'll come down in the winter. And if I do, you'll be the first guy I'll PM.

Best part is you can thank me for the FG Tour tip by buying me a scotch.

And I hope surgery goes well for you, and you're back swinging in no time.

[Kirasdad]

"Because ultimately I will play these clubs because I want to score. And when I want to score, I will again begin to obsess over breaking par. And irons. And gear. And putters. And golf balls. And yet again, I will find the game that I played as a kid, the game that composed some of the best and most vivid memories of my childhood, the game that has taught me so much about sportsmanship, etiquette, and history will become what it should never become again.
Work."


Oh yeah, this so resonates with me.

Do I want to play golf, or do I want golf to play me.

Second day of my local little Ryder Cup was not as successful in one way. I lost. On the last hole. A match I could have easily won. Closing hole is an uphill par five. My opponent hits his tee shot in into the woods. I hit my drive into,the right rough, not great but playable. I decide to go for the jugular, I pull out my persimmon 3 wood (yes, you read that correctly, I was on such a high that I snuck it into the bag for day 2) and proceeded to hit it into the woods. My opponent lucks out and has an opening and hits a fairly normal shot up wedge distance and beats me as I chop it out of trees and make a bunch.

So what.

I believe this day was successful by another, far more important measure. I DIDN'T BLAME THE CLUB. The club being wooden had nothing to do with my decision to employ it. I could have hit my 4 iron to 8 iron distance, knocked it up there and perhaps still be playing, but I gambled and lost. So be it. No need to run to the garage, or worse yet the the golf shop to buy another mini basketball on a stick because I lost a match. "I" lost the match. Not my persimmon three wood. My brain, my thought process lost the match. I won Sat. because I hit a really nice shot under pressure,. I lost yesterday for the opposite reason. I earned them both, and I feel just a good about the experience now as I did with my last post. And...

I'm going to do it again. Playing in another similar event in my home town in Illinois this coming weekend. Just a fluke that it worked out that way, we are going home on vacation, and as a result I get to tee it up again with my irons, putter and sand wedge about as old as me.

That's how I want to play. I'll earn my good ones, thank you very much, and live with the rest.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1374549940' post='7519206']
And OSR, I'd love to play a round with you too. Never been to SC, and maybe one day I'll come down in the winter. And if I do, you'll be the first guy I'll PM.

Best part is you can thank me for the FG Tour tip by buying me a scotch.

And I hope surgery goes well for you, and you're back swinging in no time.
[/quote]

Hold on a minute, I want in on this. I know I'm a new guy, but I'll tee it up anywhere with this group. Name the course and day.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Boy, that would be quite the foursome. OSR in SC, Smitty in Kansas, me in Canada, and Kirasdad in California.

Guess we'll meet at Smitty's place?

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1374563349' post='7519962']

I believe this day was successful by another, far more important measure. I DIDN'T BLAME THE CLUB. The club being wooden had nothing to do with my decision to employ it. I could have hit my 4 iron to 8 iron distance, knocked it up there and perhaps still be playing, but I gambled and lost. So be it. No need to run to the garage, or worse yet the the golf shop to buy another mini basketball on a stick because I lost a match. "I" lost the match. Not my persimmon three wood. My brain, my thought process lost the match. I won Sat. because I hit a really nice shot under pressure,. I lost yesterday for the opposite reason. I earned them both, and I feel just a good about the experience now as I did with my last post. And...

I'm going to do it again. Playing in another similar event in my home town in Illinois this coming weekend. Just a fluke that it worked out that way, we are going home on vacation, and as a result I get to tee it up again with my irons, putter and sand wedge about as old as me.

That's how I want to play. I'll earn my good ones, thank you very much, and live with the rest.
[/quote]

Another excellent report from your gaming. And great that you broke it down to not being the club's fault. My league partner always refers to things like this as a "strategic error", and I agree. It's not the club's fault if you don't execute, or put yourself in a position where your odds of messing up the shot are higher. And yes, pressure can do funny things, sometimes keeping you focused, and sometimes making your sphincter clench so hard you can't even blink!

And regardless of if I do eventually need to put the coffee can on a stick back into the bag at some point, I think the wood woods are staying for good. The sound, the feel, and the [u]straightness[/u] are so much better than the fairly modern fairways I already had (MacGregor 2008 MT Cupface 3W, Wilson Fat Boy II Strong 5W). They may go 10 yards less, but 10 less isn't farther away when the wood was 20 yds offline.

[oldschoolrocker]

Another well thought and penned post. Good point of not chasing the next angry fix by blaming the club. Toto, we are still in Kansas and have everything we need.

[profsmitty]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1374583677' post='7520606']
Boy, that would be quite the foursome. OSR in SC, Smitty in Kansas, me in Canada, and Kirasdad in California.

Guess we'll meet at Smitty's place?
[/quote]Let me get home first. But after next Monday . . . I'm good. Got just the course.

[dbuck47]

Wow, I have been staring at a blinking cursor for several minutes. This thread has inspired so many thoughts, memories, and stories, that I don't believe I can condense them to one manageable post. I am trying to reconcile the several aspects of what I enjoy about golf, what I consider to be "classic", and the theme of kirasdad's original post, "A Bag for All Seasons". I am not sure where to start, but I have decided to break it up into more than one post in an attempt to avoid boring anyone. I think I will start with what I consider the parameters of a "classic" or "vintage" bag to be, and some of what it is not. I am submitting in the spirit of the open discussion we have begun here, and I hope no one will be offended as I am not offended if your opinions differ from mine. Certainly we are talking about things that bring us enjoyment, and we will have some common and some differing opinions which makes this all the more enjoyable.

[oldschoolrocker]

d buck,

The thread of commonality that is woven loosely among us is by its very design both inspirational and challenging. Not so unlike the hidden gems of courses, some great, some small, that we find, or better yet, find us, as we tack our way across the fairways of the world.

The diversity of the game, the various tools of armament to be employed on the battlefield, where the solitary golfer must be scout, soldier, and general, by it's very nature gives way to the spirit of understanding.

I, for one, welcome a good discussion.

[ScooterMcTavish]

dbuck,

This isn't a blades vs. GI thread in the equipment forum. I think you're pretty safe in joining our discussion with whatever opinion you'd like to share.

Saw another one pop up today, some nonsense like "Will playing blades make me better?".

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1374616511' post='7524782']
dbuck,

This isn't a blades vs. GI thread in the equipment forum. I think you're pretty safe in joining our discussion with whatever opinion you'd like to share.

Saw another one pop up today, some nonsense like "Will playing blades make me better?".
[/quote]

Sure, if you practice with them, otherwise as Pacino would say "fagetaboudit".

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1374638851' post='7527372']
[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1374616511' post='7524782']
dbuck,

This isn't a blades vs. GI thread in the equipment forum. I think you're pretty safe in joining our discussion with whatever opinion you'd like to share.

Saw another one pop up today, some nonsense like "Will playing blades make me better?".
[/quote]

Sure, if you practice with them, otherwise as Pacino would say "fagetaboudit".
[/quote]

You hit the key word, practice. Practice makes you better, and blades require you to practice more. Besides, what is"better" anyways? Is it always a lower number, or is it learning to work the ball, or is it the feel of a pured blade hit?

So enveloped by the marketing machine, I think some people are realizing they have only so much game they can buy, and so they ask these questions. Maybe the question they should ask is, "What is important to me about golf?". Once they answer that, then can better find the answers they need as to what they should play.

[dbuck47]

Well, after some inner struggle, I have gotten over myself and realized that I am not deciding everyone's idea of a traditional bag, but just mine. I agree with Smitty that to determine a bag for all seasons and if that bag can be "classic only", we have to define "classic" or "traditional", etc. means to us. Classic, as Smitty noted, is somewhat ambiguous. Few would argue that PING Eye2's are "classic" or "iconic", but as Smitty and Scooter described, they represent a paradigm. They are definitely "players clubs", as they have been in the bags of great players, and in the day it was common to see a PING 1 iron riding in a bag otherwise full of blades.

To me, a traditional bag is blades and lumber. The blades are some form of muscle back, preferably forged, shafts are steel, and the woods are made of --wood. To me, it involves club types and reproductions from the start of the steel era, up to roughly 1990. In 1992, Fred Couples won The Masters with I believe a wooden driver, but his irons were cavities and his 3 wood metal. I am not saying stop at 1990, but that was near the end of woods. I think a lot of current and recent irons qualify; MP-14's and MP-29's don't look much different from my old Wilsons. I would include the traditional offerings from Louisville and Joe Powell. I haven't quite made up my mind about the advanced wooden designs. As to putters, I would not limit it to Bullseye types or flanged blades ( although that is what I prefer). The Ray Cook mallet has been around forever, and yes I would include PING Anser types and copies without polymer inserts. I would say no inserts, but I seem to remember old aluminum head mallets with brass inserts. Anser or blade style Scotty's without inserts or adjustable weights might be ok--I would defer to the group regarding milled faces. No hybrids, but wooden, Stan Thompson Ginty style clubs might be allowable. Even back in the hickory days there were similar clubs--at least high lofted woods. Wedges represent another issue--there are many current wedges that are very traditional in style, but have milled faces. What say ye?

Also, as Scooter said, I am not about blades vs GI--I play both and enjoy both for different reasons. I am a 15 handicap, so no blade snobbery from me, I just enjoy them!

[ScooterMcTavish]

Dbuck,

 

Yours was an enjoyable post, and one that I think highlights the discrepancies between my idea of a classic bag and Smitty's.

 

My perspective on it is temporal. As a 60 year old soul in a mid-40s body, I have been a keen lover of history, and have felt nostalgia for everything from golf clubs to meat packing plants (long story). To me, a classic bag is an opportunity to embrace some of the feelings of my youth, and is by nature locked to a certain time-based frame of reference .

 

In contrast, yours and Smiity's perspective is form based. Forged MBs, wood woods, and no insert putters. Which is an equally valid perspective on the discussion.

 

However, I believe there is a bit of a slippery slope in choosing form as the sole arbiter as well. Because as we all know, form is temporal.

 

Let's move this discussion back to 1980, just as the Eye 2s are starting to come out. Our board (or newsletter as it will) will be composed of members who started golfing in the 1930's (if 60), likely up to the 1950's (if in their 40's).

 

Let's compare clubs from the eras:

 

1935:

 

1955:

 

To a golfer in these eras, what is a classic club would be different, as the form changes over time. Form is temporal.

 

Imagine a player from the 1930's discussing clubs....

 

"Those MacGregors aren't classic! Look how tall the heads are, and all that weight behind the ball. A classic club doesn't have all that muscle - it made it way too easy for you guys to hit the ball far. And look how giant the face is on that club - it's almost a shovel compared to the butter knives we had to work with. And steel shafts are cheating - imagine how much more consistent they are versus the hickory we played with. Every club was different, even in a set of irons.

 

And don't get me started on the grooves. How the heck are you supposed to get any backspin using something that looks like polka dots? It wasn't until they figured out that horizontal grooves put spin on the ball - now that's when the game got easy.

 

Not to mention the woods. When we hit the ball with wood, it was hit with wood, and all the inconsistencies each block of wood brought to the club. You guys have aluminum or plastic inserts in your woods which made contact so much more consistent and predictable between shots.

 

I'm not even going to begin discussing the ball......."

 

So if we had a member in our forum who was 90 (bless our hearts if we did), he might disagree with Smitty's, mine, and dbuck's idea of what a classic club is. Because form changes over time. That's where we come back to what someone "personally" believes is a classic for them. As dbuck stated:

 

I have gotten over myself and realized that I am not deciding everyone's idea of a traditional bag, but just mine.

 

I think this is one of the truest statements in this thread. To be true to ourselves and our beliefs, we have no choice but to also be a slave to the time we have lived in. I'm one of the younger guys in here - you can tell because I think a Ping Eye 2 is classic (and have said so in another thread). However, in my 40s, I see no way that I would ever consider an AMP set of irons, or anything with blades spelt "bladez" or balls spelt "ballz" a classic anything. However, to a 15 year old dude right now, my Apex IIs may one day look to him like a hickory shafted Wright and Ditson club (an antique, not a classic), and his classics may say "ballz" on them. Lord knows what monstrosities the industry can cook up over the next 20-30 years.

 

Very much enjoying this discussion. Wife also found me a Wright and Ditson "Straight Play" solid persimmon driver at a thrift store (no insert) that had all its finish worn off, with a waffle grip. It's neck is cracked (though still solidly mounted to the shaft), the shaft is rusted, and the windings are gone. Hit it a few times, and love the unique feel and distance I got out of it. Think this will be a good one to refinish, and I'm planning on staining, lacquering and rewinding this bad boy to actually game. Now that's classic!

[Blade Junkie]

I find it amusing that Phil Mickelson has just won The Open with no driver and just a 3 wood, and that the 3-Wood spec is 43.25" long 185cc head ... so basically a driver from 25 years ago lol.

The youngsters in the Equipment forum are all having orgasms and predicting all the OEMs will come out with smaller headed clubs now.

Anyway, I am now minded to think that the Callaway 3Deep 3-wood would be a good addition to the "Tweener" set in the opening post

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1374682465' post='7529902']
The youngsters in the Equipment forum are all having orgasms and predicting all the OEMs will come out with smaller headed clubs now.
[/quote]

This one actually made me laugh out loud.

[dbuck47]

I am putting this post in this thread because it is part of my journey to "a bag for all seasons".

In my closet, mostly gathering dust, is a very nice set of Titleist DCI's ca. 1992. I bought them new, 1-PW. I have often regretted not buying the LW and SW, but just didn't get around to it before they changed models. I went to the golf shop to purchase some Tommy Armour 845s, but they were out. I waited for the UPS delivery, but it brought no Tommy Armours, and I bought 3-PW DCIs, and had them order a 1 and 2 iron.

In 1979, while I was in college, my dad bought for me a set of Wilson Staff Tour Blades. I had taken a lesson or two, and learned to hit these fairly well, if not quite getting the distance I thought I should. That summer I believe was the first time I broke 90, and
got to where I was staying regularly in the 80's, with an occasional 39. I did not have an official handicap, but considered myself a little better than bogey. Over the years, depending on my playing time, I would have periods in the low 80's and an occasional but rare round in the 70's. Generally, I was satisified with those irons, if I did my part they did theirs, and I never really thought of changing.

In 1992, I had a little extra change in my pocket, realized I was not a scratch golfer,-HA!-, and decided I needed a little help in the forgiveness department. I went to local golf shop and asked for suggestions. The guys I usually talked to were out that day, and I talked to a kid who worked there part time. (I am not knocking kids--I was one a century or two ago- and we all learn hopefully). He asked me what I currently played. I said Wilson Staffs.
"the most traded clubs in the game", he opined with a discerning look.
"Why?", I asked.
"They are just so hard to hit," he replied.
I just smiled and nodded. I had never considered them "hard to hit", but yeah, you did have to make contact.
"What do you play?" I asked.
"Tommy Armour 845's" he replied proudly. He also said they were out of stock because they were so poplular they were hard to keep on the shelf.
A few days later, I was back in and talked to one of the guys I usually worked with. He told me about the 845s and how that yeah they were "hot" but that it was mostly because they stepped up the lofts and lengths so that a 5 iron was now close to a 4 iron and so on. He also showed me the DCIs, which were basically on the same principle.

I put the DCIs in the bag and was happy as a clam. I did get more distance per club, and was more consistent over all. I played them exclusively for about 6 months, but kept the old Wilson wedge and putter that is still in my bag today. I liked them, but my score did not improve that much--maybe a stroke or two- but I felt I was more consistent. Later that summer I changed out the rest of my bag, with a Lynx Boom Boom driver, and a Titleist Pro Trajectory 13* fairway. A year or two before, I had replaced a Hogan persimmon 5 wood that cracked with a 16* Taylor Raylor that I still use.

After about 6 months or so of playing the DCI's I pulled out my old Wilson Staff 5 iron which had always been my "go to" club. It was what I practiced with the most, and all the other clubs were relative to this one. I couldn't hit it-couldn't get it off the ground, couldn't hit it straight or crooked. That was a disheartnin' moment right there, fellers! Well it was what it was, and I didn't do anything about it right then, but some time after that, I started practicing occasionally with my old Staffs, and after we got reaquainted, I would put them in play occasionally. I vowed to never lose touch with them again. The DCI's continued to be my most used clubs and certainly in any competition, but the Staffs were no longer neglected either, getting some practice and play.

A couple of couple of years or so later, I did a crude experiment, hitting ten golf balls each with my Staff and DCI 5 irons. The "group size" of the DCI was about twice as tight as with my Staff, and the center of the group was a little longer. The best of the best, however, was with the Staff.

[NRJyzr]

The youngsters in the Equipment forum are all having orgasms and predicting all the OEMs will come out with smaller headed clubs now.

 

And, they all claim they'll buy them.

 

I'm with Scooter

 

As a mild side note, I have had some interest lately in playing what I'd call "90s retro golf." It's possible this is partly due to my having started the game in 1999, so I spent little time in the sub-300cc driver world. And, maybe because I have a fair number of sub-300cc driver heads, both stainless steel as well as Ti.

 

And I have a healthy stash of wound balls.

 

Might be interesting.

 

Last thought for the post... anyone remember the Dynacraft Grand Limited?

[dbuck47]

As I mentioned earlier, about 3 years ago I ran across a Joe Powell DSP J1 driver and 3 wood, along with a Ram Tom Watson persimmon 5 wood in a used barrel at a pawn shop. I bought the 3 of them for $24. The Joe Powells were in fair shape but well used, but the Ram was pristene, still having the original Ram marked GP green Victory grip. The grip is a little hard due to age, but the head appears unused-it may have been unhit. It has a graphite insert. I have only hit this club a couple of times. The wood on the toe side next to the insert is a little proud, either due to age or moisture, so I have not put it in play for fear of marring the face. I am thinking of sending it to Joe Powell or Louisville, but may just keep it and not play it.

The Joe Powells, though with a few dings, look good and play good. I put them in the bag with my Wilson Staffs, and practiced with them a good bit. The following spring, I played in a little charity scramble. Since I had been going to the range almost exclusively with my vintage clubs for the previous couple of months, I used them in the scramble. My experience was not quite as successful and Kirasdad. It was a 4-man scramble and the other 3 members were on the local high school team and decent players, so I was the least skilled in the group. We did use a few of my shots however. I don't think we used any of my drives, but came close a couple of times. At least one of them was usually able to bomb a Volkswagon on a stick twenty yards or so past me.

While this experience didn't completely discourage me, in fact I had a pretty good ball striking day for me, I have since generally reverted to more modern stuff when playing in a scramble in a effort to make a better contribution to the effort. I have continued to play my vintage bag frequently, when playing "for me".

[dbuck47]

A couple of years ago, I embarked on an experiment of sorts. I had a few goals/questions in mind. First, I wanted to put together a "car trunk set", that I would keep in the trunk for an impromtu range session or 9 holes now and then. Second, I wanted to see if a few randomly and inexpensively aquired clubs could be monkeyed with enough to be something I could get around the course in bogey or better. I also wanted to have fewer than 14 clubs that would get the job done, and thus be a lighter burden to start walking some.

I went to a local pawn shop, and found a Wilson Staff FG-17 9 iron, a Ram Golden Ram 5 iron, and a Hogan Director 9 iron, all in various stages of disrepair and bought all 3 for $5. The Hogan has been named my Frankennine, both for the the state it was in, and for what it became. There was no ferrule, and the head was fastened to the shaft with a bolt and nut through the hosel, looking just like Shelley's creation. I took these to a local guy who does club work, a fellow worthy of his own post some day. He is in his 60's, a retired industrial engineer, and an interesting guy. He fitted these heads with True Temper "Utility" shafts and bent them to my requests. The FG-17 9 iron was bent to 42* and 36 inches long. The 5 iron was bent to 26* and 38 inches long. He removed the bolt from the Hogan's neck, filled the holes with epoxy, bent the loft to 34*, and installed a ferrule and installed the shaft to 37 inches. My Frankennine is really a Frankenseven and if I do my part, is a sweet feeling 149 yard club.

I stuck these in an old Dunlop lightweight bag along with my old Lynx Boom Boom driver and 16* Taylor Raylor. As always, my old Wilson JP pitching wedge went in the bag as well.

I only have 4 putters. One of course is my Wilson Geo Low Original 600 from 1980. This is a replica of the Low Wizard 600, similar to the one used by Nicklaus on so many momentus occasions. I have a Bridgestone Mallet, a mag/brnz Anser 3, and a Ray Cook Classic II flanged blade. One of these goes in the bag, most often the Wilson or the PING.

After I while, I was wanting more distance (of course-even I fall victim occasionally) and pulled out an old Taylormade Ti 360 that I had liked some. This of course was a $300-400 club new, but I had picked it up at a pawn shop for $25. I took it to my club guy, and we picked out a UST/Mamiya ProForce V2 shaft that Golfsmith was closing out for $20, and he installed it.

You can see this little experiment getting out of hand, LOL!

At my course there is a par 3 that plays about 180-190 from the regular tees. I couldn't quite get enough out of the Ram 5 iron to get there, and I couldn't take enough off the Raylor to stay on the green. I was in my club guy's shop, and he had upgraded his hybrids, and had his old ones for sale. They were Callaway Heavenwoods, 23* 4H and 20* 3H with Callaway RCH firm shafts. He sold me the pair for $50. The 4H is perfect for the aforementioned par 3, just line up and go. Choke down an inch for 180, full swing for 190.

Another pawn shop excursion yielded a PING ZING 5 iron, and a future addition may be a matching 4 iron. Whether or not that would replace the Ram 5 iron is an undecided issue;a recent knockdown shot may keep the old Ram in the bag even if I add the ZING 4.

So for those of you who have not yet dozed off, this is my current "bag for all seasons". It has some things in common with Kirasdad's "tweener" bag-a mix of low tech and high tech and spans from the late 70's to the mid 2000's. Also in my closet is a Titleist 905T driver that sometimes replaces the Taylor 360, and also an older Orlimar 14*+ with an EI-70 shaft that may replace both in a tribute to Phil's victory for a round or two. This bag started as a knock-around bag, but has become my main bag and is what I use in the rare scramble or whatever in which I participate. Lately though, I am playing my vintage bag about 60% of the time, and I see that increasing.

[jmck]

Great thread everyone, just lovely. A few thoughts:

As someone with way, way, way more golf clubs than I could ever possibly need, the question of "what to play" is one with which I struggle. One the one hand, It's pretty rare that I play the same exact 14 clubs in consecutive rounds. On the other hand, despite having enough clubs to build probably around 50 complete bags, I've got things down to just a handful of Hoofer bags that stay pretty close to constant while everything else gathers dust.

I suspect that "vintage" is pretty heavily influenced by how old one is and/or when one took up the game. For some folks, vintage is going to be an all Hogan bag from the late 50s, for some an all Wilson bag from the mid 80s, while over in the equipment forum the occasional thread pops up expressing sincere surprise and delight at how pleasant a round was with "vintage" TA 845s and steel headed Warbirds.

I've tried to come up with a bag for all seasons, and I really can't. I think the answer is two bags for all seasons--one that's got wooden woods and blades, and one that's got metal (smallish titanium allowed) woods and whatever irons you want. You could call them "semi-vintage" and "semi-modern." Obviously there's such a huge spectrum of golf clubs available--100+ years worth of designs--that it's really impossible to pin "vintage" and "modern" down definitively. You could go full on vintage with a set of brand new Tad Moore hickories, or you could go full on modern with tour issue 2014 gear which plays a lot like 30 year old Eye2s. For a bag (or two!) for all seasons, I think something in between is best.

With all that said, my "semi-vintage" bag is:
[indent=1]Mac T945 (early 80s) with 12* loft and a Dynamic shaft--very playable[/indent]
[indent=1]Hogan Apex 4w (mid 80s)--can hit it 160-240[/indent]
[indent=1]Wilson '76 Staffs, 4-W--don't bother with the 3i since the 4w is so versatile[/indent]
[indent=1]Hogan Apex 56* SW[/indent]
[indent=1]Ping Anser, late 70s[/indent]

My "semi-modern" bag is:
[indent=1]983K with DGS300[/indent]
[indent=1]904F with DGS300[/indent]
[indent=1]Mizzy Fli-Hi 2i DGS300--it's like cheating![/indent]
[indent=1]MacGregor PCB Tours, Apex 4 shafts[/indent]
[indent=1]Hogan Special 53*[/indent]
[indent=1]Vokey 258*08[/indent]
[indent=1]Ping MyDay, mid 80s[/indent]

If I feel like making the semi-vintage bag a little more full on vintage I'll switch over to Hogan Precision woods and irons and a Bullseye. If I feel like making the semi-modern bag a little less old fashioned I'll swap the woods out for a 905T and a 906F4 with graphite shafts (Blueboard and YS-6 respectively).

So those are my two sets for all seasons. If I'm playing by myself, or on my home course (a very old fashioned thing in its own right), it's almost always the semi-vintage bag. If I'm playing competitively, or with folks who I know play the tips, or with folks who bag the latest and greatest, or traveling to new courses, then the semi-modern bag gets the call.

There are many joys to this game. The amazing variety--and beauty--of the equipment used is surely one of them.

[dbuck47]

Good post JMCK-you are very close to my problem and solution. I don't have as many choices as you,but I have close to the same decisions. As you expressed, it is a fun problem to ponder and try to solve.

[ScooterMcTavish]

.....and I think I got it.

Although not becoming orgasmic over Phil's win with a small-headed 3w, at league last night, I bagged my coffee can on a stick (security blanket), my Hogan 3 and 5 persimmons, and my Apex II 1-W.

I made a decision on the first tee to only pull out the coffee can if my getting in touch with my roots was dragging our foursome down. Or making the day agonizing for my partners (cover your face when Scooter is on the tee agonizing).

The persimmons performed admirably, and the 3 was great off the tee. On the 4 holes I used it, I was 10-20 yards behind my partner (who hits a similar distance), either on the fairway, or in the first cut. At our course, being in the first cut is occasionally preferable to the fairway. Loved the looks I got pulling the persimmon out of the bag. One partner even tried hitting a ball into a lagoon while we were waiting, and he liked it.

Mind you, he duffed a coffee can drive, so I drove longer than him 25% of the time. All were good, usable balls. With an Apex PRO 5 shaft.

On my first hole, my pin high tee 5w on a 205 yd par 3 did not play back in the wind as expected, and nestled nicely against a tree trunk. After 2 more shots to get on the green, my putter chose that exact moment to turn on me. First triple I can remember having in a very long time.

So second hole, a par 3, I put my 8i on the green, uphill side-breaker 20' for birdie. 4 putts later, and I'm 5 over after the first 2 holes.

And in the bizarro golf world we live, on the third hole, a part 4, I hit a nice 3w about 220 to the middle of the fairway to 125 yds, then hit a 9i to the right side of the green, then sink a 25' putt for birdie. Seriously. Net result of the round was +9 for 9, and the best part is I didn't give a rip.

The Apex IIs are nice, but the light weight meant I kept pulling them inside, and toe hits were the order of the day. Something to work on, but like a good marriage, this requires commitment and hard work. And I did hit the 1i. A pretty solid strike, but the ball runs so low, it doesn't have a chance in hairy rough.

Think the guys who we were playing with their Rocketballz and R7 drivers were starting to get irritated that I was outhitting them with my persimmon 3w. And they have now nicknamed my 3w "the silencer" for the beautiful muted cracks it made while I was striping yet another 3w.

Bag for all seasons is here. And if I can find the right driver that gets me 20 more yards, I'll have given nothing up on my coffee can.

....which never left the bag.

Edit: Forgot to mention I rocked the flat cap totally last night. I hope Mr. Hogan was proud.

Edit again: If you didn't know it was a newer ball, you'd swear the Wilson Staff FG Tour was balata; it feels like balata, sounds like balata, and flies like balata off a well hit persimmon

[dbuck47]

Thanks Scooter.

I usually play 9 after work on Thursday, but a late meeting may keep me from it. I was planning on using my crazy bag, but if I make it to the course today, this post has pushed my vintage bag in play!

[dbuck47]

Well, I did make it to the course yesterday, and inspired by Scooter's post, again took my vintage bag. I put in a Tony Penna driver, but kept the Joe Powell 3 wood. I wish I had a decent score to post, but alas, I don't. After the 4th hole, I stopped counting. I did have a fair ball stiking day, but not a good scoring day. I used the Tony Penna on 4 holes, and two were great. One was maybe 230 and the other maybe 250-260, both split the fairway. The other two holes would have been bad with any driver. I also hit one of the best 1 irons I have ever hit, about 230-240 down the middle. My main problem was the wedge and putter. Just an off day with the wedge. With the putter, I was hitting where I was looking, but looking in the wrong places! I am a 15, so I don't hit a lot of greens; but I wouldn't have hit any more with other clubs.

So, is my vintage bag moving closer to being my "set for all seasons"? It will definitely get more play, but I don't think I will swear off titanium, graphite, and hybrids completely. There are still a couple of places and opponents where I will want a little margin of error. For day to day play on my home course, though, we are flirting with an arrangement.

[profsmitty]

After the wonderful discussion on this topic, can we start describing and defining a base line - in other words, except for the possible exceptions of a modern set of forged MB irons are there any modern (within last 5 years) that would be acceptable to this particular group?

I have no problem in particular with steel shafted, forged irons of any vintage. I prefer MB irons. I would have no issue with a forged CB set in general but I am not sure about some [u]very[/u] popular forged CBs with what I think is an insert that may be designed to mitigate the effect of a poorly struck shot. In fact, this may come close to defining what is my bottom line with all clubs. Engineering should not lesson the effect of a poorly struck shot. [u]Outcome should be determined by the quality of input only[/u]. Players should not be able to buy a better game by buying equipment.

I have no problem at all with modern wooden "woods" - as long as they have steel shafts. Forged wedges with conforming grooves and steel shafts of any vintage are acceptable, I think. Conforming putters with traditional length shafts and without face inserts are OK. I am not sure that hybrid clubs are acceptable in classically consistent bag.

What are your thoughts?

[oldschoolrocker]

By the letter of the law, as per one persimmon tourney website, the classic bag is defined with forged blades only and require them to be pre 1980.
Myself, I see very little difference between a classic style forged blade of today, other than stronger lofts and shaft length, and the pre 80s models.
They also make mention of limiting the wedge loft to not to exceed 56*.