How hard do you hit it?

[HoldenCornfield]

I have most of my rounds from the last 2+ years in a spreadsheet, and looking them over it seems that fairways hit and putts taken correlate most strongly to my scoring. I would have guessed greens in regulation but it does not appear to be nearly as significant a factor. My best rounds (80 and below) all had 10+ fairways hit and 32 or fewer putts.

And I know that my improvement since converting to vintage clubs has come from these two areas: finding a persimmon driver that I can hit consistently straight, and making more putts from 4 - 10 feet.

All of which is fairly self evident, I suppose...

I tried 8-10 drivers before settling on a couple that suited me, and with the help of [url="http://www.amazon.com/SKLZ-Accelerator-Ball-Return-Putting/dp/B003D6FFXK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389443049&sr=8-1&keywords=sklz+putting"]this contraption[/url] I've discovered why the vintage blade has been such an improvement over the modern mallet I've employed since the last century: I consistently aim the mallet face to the right (btw, I wholeheartedly recommend the putting mat. I think most training aids are rubbish, but this one's a gem).

Hand-in-hand with finding a suitable driver has been an effort to improve my general ballstriking. The biggest gains in this regard have come from taking video of my swing, which is so easy these days with digital cameras and free apps, and 'shadowboxing' as I call it; practicing everyday for a few minutes at home with slow motion swings. The video has helped me objectively identify swing errors and the shadowboxing helps implement changes and ingrain them.

The greatest demons in my golf bag remain the temptation to overswing (relating back to the OP), and poor course management. My latest round I managed 3 birdies, fairly astounding for me, but I wiped them out and then some with 3 doubles.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1389203517' post='8422721']
[i]I think that amateurs frequently misinterpretation of what pros say.[/i]

[i]Pros swing with totally relaxed arms and use their legs and bodies for speed.[/i]

[i]Amateurs generally dramatically overuse their arms, and interpret the pros' 85% comment relative to arm effort - a huge mistake![/i]

[i]Last night's "Full Swing" show with Paul Azinger was one of the best instructionals I've seen, as he talked about a backswing, thru swing, and follow through concentrating on keeping his left elbow down, with no effort to keep the arm straight, coupled with a big downswing weight shift and body turn, past facing the target with the body.[/i]

[i]He said the only current great player who doesn't turn past the target with his body is Stenson.[/i]

[i]Fantastic condensation of a good golf swing by a guy who lead the Tour in ball striking for several years in a row![/i]

[i]Texsport[/i]
[/quote]I watched the segment with Zinger myself and I was impressed. Back to the OPs question. I have gotten older and don't swing as hard but I will honestly say I swing at about 85% of what I used to. With a 5 iron I carry it about 175 at sea level but have finally switched to a 24* hybrid that I hit higher with the same distance but can hit a high cut better with the hybrid. When it gets windy here I will put the 3 iron in the bag to hit what I call the quail high bullet ball with

[BIG STU]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1389444210' post='8440551']
I have most of my rounds from the last 2+ years in a spreadsheet, and looking them over it seems that fairways hit and putts taken correlate most strongly to my scoring. I would have guessed greens in regulation but it does not appear to be nearly as significant a factor. My best rounds (80 and below) all had 10+ fairways hit and 32 or fewer putts.

And I know that my improvement since converting to vintage clubs has come from these two areas: finding a persimmon driver that I can hit consistently straight, and making more putts from 4 - 10 feet.

All of which is fairly self evident, I suppose...

I tried 8-10 drivers before settling on a couple that suited me, and with the help of [url="http://www.amazon.com/SKLZ-Accelerator-Ball-Return-Putting/dp/B003D6FFXK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389443049&sr=8-1&keywords=sklz+putting"]this contraption[/url] I've discovered why the vintage blade has been such an improvement over the modern mallet I've employed since the last century: I consistently aim the mallet face to the right (btw, I wholeheartedly recommend the putting mat. I think most training aids are rubbish, but this one's a gem).

Hand-in-hand with finding a suitable driver has been an effort to improve my general ballstriking. The biggest gains in this regard have come from taking video of my swing, which is so easy these days with digital cameras and free apps, and 'shadowboxing' as I call it; practicing everyday for a few minutes at home with slow motion swings. The video has helped me objectively identify swing errors and the shadowboxing helps implement changes and ingrain them.

The greatest demons in my golf bag remain the temptation to overswing (relating back to the OP), and poor course management. My latest round I managed 3 birdies, fairly astounding for me, but I wiped them out and then some with 3 doubles.
[/quote]I did the spread sheet thing a couple of years ago and it ran me nuts trying to be too perfect. I went back to my old thing hit it find it and hit it again and started playing better. But it is ok if it works for you

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1389203517' post='8422721']
[i]I think that amateurs frequently misinterpretation of what pros say.[/i]

[i]Pros swing with totally relaxed arms and use their legs and bodies for speed.[/i]

[i]Amateurs generally dramatically overuse their arms, and interpret the pros' 85% comment relative to arm effort - a huge mistake![/i]

[i]Last night's "Full Swing" show with Paul Azinger was one of the best instructionals I've seen, as he talked about a backswing, thru swing, and follow through concentrating on keeping his left elbow down, with no effort to keep the arm straight, coupled with a big downswing weight shift and body turn, past facing the target with the body.[/i]

[i]He said the only current great player who doesn't turn past the target with his body is Stenson.[/i]

[i]Fantastic condensation of a good golf swing by a guy who lead the Tour in ball striking for several years in a row![/i]

[i]Texsport[/i]
[/quote]

I agree with you the Azinger show was great.

He talks about turning through the ball, but one thing that he didn't mention that makes it a lot easier is having that left foot turned out at address.

If you still have that show, watch that part again. He starts with it turned out maybe 30 degrees, and then as he starts his downswing he spins on his toe a bit and turns it out even more.

Furyk does something similar, except he starts with his left foot pretty straight and then spins it a bunch at the start of his downswing. His hips are almost facing the target at impact.

I always feel when I'm watching any instructional show that they aren't telling me everything. Don't know if that's intentional or not. Hardly anyone talks about the three things I consider very important, which are where the hands are in front of you at address, how high or low they are and having your eyes parallel to your target line. You'll hear these things occasionally, but not as often as other stuff that's not nearly as helpful. When I started focusing more on those three things, my day to day consistency went up several notches.

After watching the Azinger show, I went to my basement net and tried a strong grip (I've always had a weak grip) with a cupped wrist and having that left foot turned out a bunch. Hit it really solid. Can't wait to try it outside.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

When Zinger was in college, Florida State or South Florida(can't remember), his coach told him to never change his grip, regardless of what other teachers, coaches or players told him. With that really strong grip, he must use a major body turn on the forward swing in order to make the ball go straight. His club face is shut at the top of his swing. Consequently, he must hold the club square through impact. And he must be sure his body is out of the way at impact. Otherwise, the result is a coat hanger hook. Or a block- slice.
David Duvall, in his prime, had a very strong grip and did basically the same action. He turned so hard, he appeared to almost look off the ball before impact. Trevino had a similar action with a neutral grip, back in the day. All hit it left-to-right. They were great drivers of the ball. And all three were cosmic iron players, especially the short irons. I'd take Trevino against anybody in a wedge game.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1389471596' post='8442327']
When Zinger was in college, Florida State or South Florida(can't remember), his coach told him to never change his grip, regardless of what other teachers, coaches or players told him. With that really strong grip, he must use a major body turn on the forward swing in order to make the ball go straight. His club face is shut at the top of his swing. Consequently, he must hold the club square through impact. And he must be sure his body is out of the way at impact. Otherwise, the result is a coat hanger hook. Or a block- slice.
David Duvall, in his prime, had a very strong grip and did basically the same action. He turned so hard, he appeared to almost look off the ball before impact. Trevino had a similar action with a neutral grip, back in the day. All hit it left-to-right. They were great drivers of the ball. And all three were cosmic iron players, especially the short irons. I'd take Trevino against anybody in a wedge game.
[/quote]

All true. Trevino did say in his book (Groove Your Golf Swing My Way, a great read if you can find it) that he turned both hands into a slightly stronger position as he started his swing, but I don't think his grip was anywhere near as strong as Azinger's or Duval's.

But isn't it interesting how this method works (or doesn't) as the player ages.

Trevino and Duval both suffered back injuries, although Trevino's was first damaged by the lightning strike.

Judy Rankin, who had a strong grip and was the one that (unknowingly) influenced Azinger's choice of grip, was sent to the TV booth by a back injury (one of the best commentators of all time in addition to being one of the best LPGA players in history).

Azinger opted not to play the Champions Tour because he said he didn't want to put the work in it would take to be competitive. Does that mean his way doesn't work as well as it used to (and he only won once after the cancer battle. We'll never know what that took out of him both physically and mentally)?

Trevino was very successful on the Champions Tour, but he did it playing a draw.

Fred Couples is another one who tries to hit fades off a strong grip, and his back issues are a constant.

The method requires strong legs, which as the old saying goes "are the first to go."

It's a great way to play if you have the physical tools to do so. But it's a method that has its issues as a result of the aging process.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='okesa' timestamp='1389377911' post='8436047']
[size=5]Is consistency the problem?There must be a specific area of your game that's giving you difficulty.I don't have much faith in teaching pro's in general,the standard of people accepted by the PGA is as low as it's ever been and the whole thing has turned into a profit-making exercise for the boys in their sinecures at the Belfry.[/size]
[size=5]The old school club pro who could put you right with a 30 minute session on the practice ground have virtually disappeared as far as I can tell,now it's all video camera,emailed lessons and technical jargon,the absolute representation of the old phrase;"bullxxxx baffles brains".[/size]
[size=5]Find a good teaching pro via the telephone,ask them at the outset if they follow a school of thought,Leadbetter,Pugh,Harmon,Foley and if they mention any of those names,hang up![/size]
[size=5]I would imagine that in your neck of the woods there must be some old boy who could put you right in no time and failing that,do it yourself by going back to basics (GASP-grip,aim,stance,posture) and a big enough window to be able to check your position at the top with your reflection and plenty of meaningful practice sessions to develop golf muscle memory and an intense familiarity with your clubs so that they become a natural extension of yourself.[/size]

[/quote]

Good shout on the back-to-basics approach Okesa.

I made it out on the course today, and largely concentrating on alignment, hit it much better - especially off the tee. I have a definite tendency to set up with the clubface open. However, for years and until very recently, my problem shot has been a hook - so (twisted logic perhaps) I mostly left the open clubface alone.

I have to say, lining up today to a very definite marker on the ground ahead of my ball, I could not believe how closed my clubface looked - so this is something that has clearly got out of hand in my game.

On the other hand, I can't believe what you said about "intense familiarity with my clubs". Isn't that practically tantamount to choosing one set of sticks and showing them a bit of loyalty?

[okesa]

[size=5]Errrr,yes and no!What I meant was that whenever you pick up a club it should feel part of you and not something dangling off your wrist,I don't think it matters which model or brand of club as long as you do regular grip practice by handling and gripping a club correctly as often as possible,even when in the armchair at night!It's really just part of the muscle memory process along with a bit of finger strengthening which can also be accomplished by compressing a squash ball.[/size]
[size=5]As a right-handed golfer you are gripping with the weaker of your two hands and it's the last three fingers of that hand that need to be developed,I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the good players I remember from 30+ years ago had big hands,I laughed at that Snead thing about 'holding a bird' when he had hands like bunches of bananas,he could have throttled a rhino![/size]
[size=5]I think all you have wrong at the moment is a slight case of SAD (common in Salmonland I believe) and a minor confidence crisis (!) allied to the fact that you listen to the verbals spouted by Rich Hunt which have nothing to do with playing vintage or classic equipment,on the 'Jack' thread someone said about the ability to hit long irons in order to make birdies,well that may be ok in the pro game or with modern kit but playing persimmon and blades requires a different mindset in my view which is why I feel the short game is so vital.[/size]
[size=5]Not only does it give you an ability to score but I firmly believe that building a smooth swing with the short irons (especially 9-iron) extends backwards through the other clubs with a resulting growth in confidence.I mention the 9-iron specifically because it is usually overlooked as a scoring club,people invariably going to wedge or sand-iron for short approaches or shots round the green but with a little practice the 9 becomes the scoring club par-excellence,no flange to cause a mishit,enough loft to get the ball up but not so much that the club will slide underneath if it's a bit grassy.[/size]
[size=5]There can't be a lot wrong with you,in fact I would have a shilling that everything will improve when we see the old currant bun shining again![/size]
[size=5]Loyalty to one set?Amazingly I have played with the same clubs for an entire week!Mizuno persimmon driver,Daiwa persimmon 3-wood,5,7,9,sw Hogan Apex II and Tad putter [i]but[/i] today I sorted out my Letters Master Model irons (thanks for the reminder Blade!) a Goudie driver and Ben Sayers 3-wood,so a blue and white bag and it's [i]Scots Wha'hay![/i][/size]
[size=5][i]Nil desperandum![/i][/size]

[NRJyzr]

In terms of my actual swingspeed output, I'd guess I'm going 95% most every swing. In terms of how it feels with respect to the effort I'm putting into the shot, it's considerably less than that.

I've tested myself on assorted swingspeed devices and launch monitors over the years. When I swing at what I feel is normal, 85% or so, my swingspeed is X. When I try to ramp it up with more effort, I may get a couple mph more, but that's about it.

That which sticks with me the most from all the above [i]testing[/i]: I will occasionally get what I call the 110% or 120% swing, a swing in which my swingspeed jumps considerably, with no additional effort on my part. In the years I've been playing this game, I have yet to figure out what I'm doing during these moments, such that I could attempt to repeat it. It would be interesting to bottle that.

There was a season where I ramped up the effort considerably, and was hitting my "traditionally lofted" irons absurd-for-me distances ("traditionally lofted" refers to essentially FG17 lofts, 20/30/50 for 2/5/pw). For two or three months, I hit my irons some fairly silly distances. And just like the ending in The Usual Suspects, "poof" and it was gone.

Never bothered to chase that, since I was also fighting crazy hooks with those irons by doing that. I had to open the clubfaces quite a bit to keep the ball on the planet. LOL

Sorry, got off track a bit there...

[oldschoolrocker]

NRJ,
Perhaps with the opening and shutting of the club face you were using the little home run method of AJ Bonner adding another bit of acceleration. I find that method very timing driven, but also very effective when all systems are in sync.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

This is how I roll:

[attachment=2019227:002.JPG]

[birly-shirly]

NRJ - were you happy that the occasional "spikes" in speed were accurately measured? I have a little Beltronics radar unit - and it tells me a similar story, fairly consistent and then "Bang" an extra 5-10 mph. As it's hard on the driving range to correlate measured swing speed with actual driving distance, I've never been sure whether this was a timing issue to chase - or a measurement error to ignore.

Killedbyashankedwedge - is that a recommendation? Dunaway was Mike Austin's student, no?
[Either way, I'm imagine Mr Dunaway would be horrified by the angle at which you've captured his likeness. The foreshortening does his figure no favours, I'm sure!]

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1389619472' post='8451275']
NRJ - were you happy that the occasional "spikes" in speed were accurately measured? I have a little Beltronics radar unit - and it tells me a similar story, fairly consistent and then "Bang" an extra 5-10 mph. As it's hard on the driving range to correlate measured swing speed with actual driving distance, I've never been sure whether this was a timing issue to chase - or a measurement error to ignore.

Killedbyashankedwedge - is that a recommendation? Dunaway was Mike Austin's student, no?
[Either way, I'm imagine Mr Dunaway would be horrified by the angle at which you've captured his likeness. The foreshortening does his figure no favours, I'm sure!]
[/quote]

A hearty recommendation! Mike was done when he showed up in SansaBelts!

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1389619472' post='8451275']
NRJ - were you happy that the occasional "spikes" in speed were accurately measured? I have a little Beltronics radar unit - and it tells me a similar story, fairly consistent and then "Bang" an extra 5-10 mph. As it's hard on the driving range to correlate measured swing speed with actual driving distance, I've never been sure whether this was a timing issue to chase - or a measurement error to ignore.
[/quote]

Those 120% swings show up on the course from time to time, as well, so I would say yes. It's easy to just assume "flier" with irons, but not so much with driver or fairway wood.

OSR - It's possible, but it certainly wasn't a conscious effort on my part. The opening of the clubface at address, yes, but that was only to counter the crazy hooks I'd see.

I also thought the hooks could be from the shafts being a bit soft for the increased speed indicated by the added distance. Though, I didn't notice the feel I usually associate with overloaded shafts; could just be inattentiveness on my part, LOL.

[Kathy Marie]

I stole some swings while shopping with SWMNBN and the truth hurts...

7i before wheelchair: 100 yds 7i after: 60 yds

I've got serious work to do to get back & I'm getting loads of ideas here, so many many thanks to all of you.

Kathy Marie

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1389259712' post='8426887']
In Power Golf, Ben Hogan lists his club distances:

Club-Regular (min-max)
1w - 265 (235-300)
2w - 250 (220-270)
3w - 235 (210-250)
4w - 220 (200-230)
1i - 195 (185-220)
2i - 185 (175-210)
3i - 175 (165-200)
4i - 165 (155-190)
5i - 155 (145-180)
6i - 145 (135-170)
7i - 135 (125-160)
8i - 125 (115-150)
9i - 115 (105-140)
pw - 50 (0-105)
sw - 25 (0-40)

[/quote]

Does anyone know what irons he would have been playing at this time and what their standard lofts would have been? The book came out in 1948, probably written in 1946-1947 (?).

I was just assuming that his lofts then would have been the same as my irons from the 60's but I have no factual basis for assuming this. Perhaps 'loft creep' had already begun.

[NRJyzr]

Loft creep has always been going on

[okesa]

[size=5]It can also work in reverse,a friend of mine from years ago who was a Sunningdale member told me of a young pro he knew well who he encountered on the practice area one day,the young man was in a fairly depressed state and explained that even though he was swinging well he couldn't hit his 6-iron (which was the club he always practiced with) any further than his 7-iron,he just couldn't understand it and was becoming increasingly frustrated.[/size]
[size=5]My pal looked at him swinging and then looked at his 6-iron;"When did you last have the lofts checked on your irons?".[/size]
[size=5]A trip to the pro shop proved that his 6-iron was knocked back to the loft of a 7-iron which the young pro claimed must have been as a result of the hours he spent practicing with that particular club![/size]
[size=5]No guarantees as to the veracity of this tale![/size]