How hard do you hit it?

[birly-shirly]

Hoping for the usual candour in this BS-free corner of the internet.

 

Just curious - not so much about your actual yardage, but about how much, if at all, you reign yourself in when you swing?

 

Let's say your average, still conditions, 5 iron distance is 160 yards. [Though for these purposes, it could just as easily be 130] Do you KNOW how much you have in reserve, or how much further you could hit it?

 

You used to hear pros talking about never swinging at more than 85%. Well, if 160 yards is 85%, could you hit it 28 yards further if required? I very much doubt whether I could. Then again, I think Hogan said in 5 Lessons that he hit most shots pretty well full out. Maybe I'm more of a Hogan than a Snead...

 

Of course, I'm curious - if the absolute furthest I can skelp a 5 iron is 170, would I hit it much better if I consistently clubbed up a couple of irons and swung easier?

 

"Easier" would take a bit of practice though. You've heard the stories of the guys like Trevino who could hit every club in their bag 140 yards and hold the green? If I tried that tomorrow I'd chunk and duck hook so many long irons it'd make me ill.

 

The funny think is - psychologically, it gets harder to throttle back the longer the club gets. But I have a hunch that the longer clubs are where you would actually lose the least yardage because of [hopefully] better contact.

[Jarri]

I feel very strongly that when pro's say 85% it's more what they feel

Honestly, when I swing the right way (not accelerating too much from the top), I feel I swung at less than my max... while actually I generate more swing speed than if I tried to hit it really hard.

So 'feeling' I swung at 80% is actually a faster swing and goes farther than if I gave it a HARD max I could do hit.

[birly-shirly]

That seems fair. Johnny Miller is another who has said very clearly that he swung at close to 100% and didn't throttle back much at all - and he believed that the other top pros he played with did the same.

Part of the problem is surely that pro swings are so much better co-ordinated that everything seems effortless, whilst actually operating at near maximum efficiency.

I saw some research recently that claimed that a study of amateur and professional swings showed that the hackers actually produced HIGHER peak forces within the torso during their downswing than the much-longer-hitting pros.

[Texsport]

[i]I think that amateurs frequently misinterpretation of what pros say.[/i]

[i]Pros swing with totally relaxed arms and use their legs and bodies for speed.[/i]

[i]Amateurs generally dramatically overuse their arms, and interpret the pros' 85% comment relative to arm effort - a huge mistake![/i]

[i]Last night's "Full Swing" show with Paul Azinger was one of the best instructionals I've seen, as he talked about a backswing, thru swing, and follow through concentrating on keeping his left elbow down, with no effort to keep the arm straight, coupled with a big downswing weight shift and body turn, past facing the target with the body.[/i]

[i]He said the only current great player who doesn't turn past the target with his body is Stenson.[/i]

[i]Fantastic condensation of a good golf swing by a guy who lead the Tour in ball striking for several years in a row![/i]

[i]Texsport[/i]

[kellygreen]

Body/one-plane swinger.

I got at the golf ball as hard as I can, while still remaining in balance....and maintaining a comfortable grip on the golf club.

I have some "in reserve"---in that I can swing even harder if I sacrifice balance or start to strangle the grip---but that doesn't translate into extra dstance for my game.

So, in that sense, I'm probably like Hogan as well.

[HoldenCornfield]

I've found for me that max effort <> max distance, but it does effect my ball striking adversely.

85-90% effort for me (or what it seems to feel like) keeps me from tensing up and, according to the swing speed radar, results in an equal if not greater distance/speed.

But, its much easier said than done. Its a constant struggle, especially with the driver. Lately, I've been working on just making a 9 o'clock swing with the driver because I know I'll actually swing past that, but thinking 9:00 keeps me from exceeding 10:00-10:30.

I received the Ben Hogan Collection on dvd for Christmas, and there is a video from 1967 showing Hogan swinging the driver and getting it to parallel while only taking his arm swing back to 10:00. And he was 55 at the time. I think that's pretty cool. And if I'm not mistaken, in the Shell's video vs Sam Snead he rarely takes his irons past 9:00. And that's on a 7000 yard course. There's probably a really good lesson in there.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Aside from my driver, I am probably 80%, which is too slow. Have a tendency to decelerate. Trying to steer instead of swing. Relaxing the muscles is hard to do without quitting on the shot. But when it works, it really works. When I pure it and it felt like I could have hit it twice as far...I think it is a function of staying relaxed in the right places. It allows the body to do everything in the proper sequence.

My driver, however is another story altogether. I have found that, the bigger the club head on the driver, the harder I swing. Like I am pretending I am Lizzie Borden or Lash LaRue. Yet another reason to revert back to persimmon.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1389200515' post='8422401']
Hoping for the usual candour in this BS-free corner of the internet.

Just curious - not so much about your actual yardage, but about how much, if at all, you reign yourself in when you swing?

Let's say your average, still conditions, 5 iron distance is 160 yards. [Though for these purposes, it could just as easily be 130] Do you KNOW how much you have in reserve, or how much further you could hit it?

You used to hear pros talking about never swinging at more than 85%. Well, if 160 yards is 85%, could you hit it 28 yards further if required? I very much doubt whether I could. Then again, I think Hogan said in 5 Lessons that he hit most shots pretty well full out. Maybe I'm more of a Hogan than a Snead...

Of course, I'm curious - if the absolute furthest I can skelp a 5 iron is 170, would I hit it much better if I consistently clubbed up a couple of irons and swung easier?

"Easier" would take a bit of practice though. You've heard the stories of the guys like Trevino who could hit every club in their bag 140 yards and hold the green? If I tried that tomorrow I'd chunk and duck hook so many long irons it'd make me ill.

The funny think is - psychologically, it gets harder to throttle back the longer the club gets. But I have a hunch that the longer clubs are where you would actually lose the least yardage because of [hopefully] better contact.
[/quote]

The ability to throttle your tempo reliably and consistently is very difficult thing to do for most people. Very few practice it with any kind of intensity and it takes that as much as any other part of one's game.

My "Normal" swing is not throttled back, it is what has become a very comfortable easily repeatable tempo that has been grooved over decades. This results, for me, in something 'less than' 100% but I certainly can not give you a specific percentage. Holding back is not at all a word I would use to describe it fwiw.

As much of 'stepping on one' has to do with trajectory as it does swing speed. While I will try and put a little extra turn and release to gain some distance, I will also change trajectory and ideally, spin rate, to gain some as well. The combinatio0n of all these things is determined by "why" I am trying to hit a particular club farther than normal. For what it's worth, my normal 9i carry is 154yrds, I can get it out to probably 170-ish maxed. A 6i would be 198yrds and could be made to roll out into the 220s maxed. There would have to be a trade off well in my favor in order to choose to do so.

[Sean2]

Actually I don't try to hit the ball, I'm working on swinging through the ball. If you look at Rory or Tiger, they don't much look like they hold anything back. If you can maintain your balance throughout the swing I would suggest you aren't swinging too hard. A lot of folks accelerate/lung from the top and actually end up decelerating through the impact zone, instead of "gradually" transitioning and accelerating through the impact zone.

[theothertomjones]

We talking about golf, or ... ?????

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='ItsNotTheClubs' timestamp='1389211444' post='8423589']
We talking about golf, or ... ?????
[/quote]

seriously now...who goes at 3/4 power in that? You try to dribble one in there? Really?

[tembolo1284]

BANG! No half swings ever.

[cardoustie]

I go pretty much 95% percent at everything, stock 9i is 155. I can go harder but this is usually reserved for going for par 5's in two, the need for a really high shot and from flier lies where I am taking advantage of conditions

I hit clubs shorter by utilizing knockdowns or punches that fly lower ... I love playing in the wind

My instructor, who plays with me a bunch socially, told me (after observation) that I should always go with an 8 vs a 7 and swing hard. My attempts at "feathering" shots leads to all kind of disasters

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1389212461' post='8423725']
[quote name='ItsNotTheClubs' timestamp='1389211444' post='8423589']
We talking about golf, or ... ?????
[/quote]

seriously now...who goes at 3/4 power in that? You try to dribble one in there? Really?
[/quote]

You gotta pace yourself if your the only guy in a foursome.

[Texsport]

Every professional I've every discussed it with says they'd rather be straight than long.

You can always take more club!

BTW - who just won on the Tour this week, on a "bombers" course?

Here's a hint - he finished #177 in driving distance on Tour in 2013!


Texsport

[GWD]

I hit it as hard as I can hit it until it is hard to hit it.

[theothertomjones]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1389212461' post='8423725']
[quote name='ItsNotTheClubs' timestamp='1389211444' post='8423589']
We talking about golf, or ... ?????
[/quote]

seriously now...who goes at 3/4 power in that? You try to dribble one in there? Really?
[/quote]

I'm more like Happy Gilmore. I hit it on the course much differently. No running start

[theothertomjones]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1389232369' post='8425497']
Every professional I've every discussed it with says they'd rather be straight than long.


Texsport
[/quote]

I LOL'd

[HoldenCornfield]

In Power Golf, Ben Hogan lists his club distances:

Club-Regular (min-max)
1w - 265 (235-300)
2w - 250 (220-270)
3w - 235 (210-250)
4w - 220 (200-230)
1i - 195 (185-220)
2i - 185 (175-210)
3i - 175 (165-200)
4i - 165 (155-190)
5i - 155 (145-180)
6i - 145 (135-170)
7i - 135 (125-160)
8i - 125 (115-150)
9i - 115 (105-140)
pw - 50 (0-105)
sw - 25 (0-40)

So it seems as though he kept anywhere from 10-25 yards in reserve with most clubs. And in Jody Vazquez' book Afternoons With Mr. Hogan, he says Hogan believed in hitting full irons to front pin placements and 3/4 iron shots to back pins, which I found interesting.

Keeping in mind that he was hitting balatas with persimmon, the fact that his average drive was 265 blows my mind, especially considering his 5'8", 140 lb stature. I can't come close to most of his wood averages even with a modern distance ball. On the other hand, I hit most of my irons about 10 yards further (42 degree 9 iron approx 125 yards). So that makes me think that he backed off his irons quite a bit in normal circumstances.

BTW Birly-Shirly, I went out for a round yesterday afternoon and all I could think about when swinging an iron was how hard (%) I was swinging, thanks a lot! Haha

[birly-shirly]

Good man Holden - I'm glad to hear it!

I took a swing speed radar to the range. For various clubs, I found my max speed, then practiced trying to take 5 - 10mph off. Not as easy as it sounds, and it certainly didn't yield instantly better ballflight. I did find it made me more conscious of my swing, and especially my balance - and in the long run, that might be a good thing.

[okesa]

[size=5]Don't you think it depends on swing philosophy?Modern swing thoughts focus more on the role of the body with a passivity in the hands and arms creating a more mechanical swing that means that you hit almost every shot the same but just change the club to allow for distance whereas the older schools of thought allowed players more flexibility with hands and arms for more creative shotmaking and the ability to hit harder and softer shots with the same club.[/size]
[size=5]Especially true in the short game where a lot of modern players have a ' 8 o'clock,9 o'clock,10 o'clock' position for each wedge for different yardages whereas the old school was based on vision,feel and the ability to play a 105 yard shot with anything from a 4-iron down.[/size]
[size=5]I guess that's why so many players carry multiple wedges and also why so many have such a crap short game having learned mechanical theory to the exclusion of imagination and creativity.[/size]
[size=5]So the answer to the question is;"As hard as I need to."[/size]

[size=5]Do you dream up your contentious issues at work when somebody's peed you off? LOL[/size]

[golfdude300]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1389208764' post='8423265']
I've found for me that max effort <> max distance, but it does effect my ball striking adversely.

85-90% effort for me (or what it seems to feel like) keeps me from tensing up and, according to the swing speed radar, results in an equal if not greater distance/speed.

But, its much easier said than done. Its a constant struggle, especially with the driver. Lately, I've been working on just making a 9 o'clock swing with the driver because I know I'll actually swing past that, but thinking 9:00 keeps me from exceeding 10:00-10:30.

I received the Ben Hogan Collection on dvd for Christmas, and there is a video from 1967 showing Hogan swinging the driver and getting it to parallel while only taking his arm swing back to 10:00. And he was 55 at the time. I think that's pretty cool. And if I'm not mistaken, in the Shell's video vs Sam Snead he rarely takes his irons past 9:00. And that's on a 7000 yard course. There's probably a really good lesson in there.
[/quote]

Sure it's a good lesson. A tighter swing means better contact through the ball. Anything more is an overswing which usually reduces both distance and accuracy.

The yardages you posted for Hogans swing probably accounted for elevation changes. Obviously, someone who averages 250 yards off the tee can hit a ball 300+ yards if the conditions are right. Elevation, hard pan, wind direction, etc.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='okesa' timestamp='1389302956' post='8430261']
[size=5]Don't you think it depends on swing philosophy?Modern swing thoughts focus more on the role of the body with a passivity in the hands and arms creating a more mechanical swing that means that you hit almost every shot the same but just change the club to allow for distance whereas the older schools of thought allowed players more flexibility with hands and arms for more creative shotmaking and the ability to hit harder and softer shots with the same club.[/size]
[size=5]Especially true in the short game where a lot of modern players have a ' 8 o'clock,9 o'clock,10 o'clock' position for each wedge for different yardages whereas the old school was based on vision,feel and the ability to play a 105 yard shot with anything from a 4-iron down.[/size]
[size=5]I guess that's why so many players carry multiple wedges and also why so many have such a crap short game having learned mechanical theory to the exclusion of imagination and creativity.[/size]
[size=5]So the answer to the question is;"As hard as I need to."[/size]

[size=5]Do you dream up your contentious issues at work when somebody's peed you off? LOL[/size]
[/quote]

Ah, no. Golf p1sses me off more than anyone at work!

The planets lined up last year and I spent more time at the range than I've done in donkeys. I also took a few lessons from a couple of teachers - from which the ultimate conclusion seemed to be that "it looks better than it goes!"

So here I am, rummaging around in the bargain bin of golf's crank ideas (clubfitting, not hitting it as hard as you can, physical fitness...) looking for something that might bring a bit of consistency to my game and get me into single figures. The one thing I won't stoop to is modern clubs, though if I do manage to improve my flexibility, who knows how low I might sink?

[okesa]

[size=5]Is consistency the problem?There must be a specific area of your game that's giving you difficulty.I don't have much faith in teaching pro's in general,the standard of people accepted by the PGA is as low as it's ever been and the whole thing has turned into a profit-making exercise for the boys in their sinecures at the Belfry.[/size]
[size=5]The old school club pro who could put you right with a 30 minute session on the practice ground have virtually disappeared as far as I can tell,now it's all video camera,emailed lessons and technical jargon,the absolute representation of the old phrase;"bullxxxx baffles brains".[/size]
[size=5]Find a good teaching pro via the telephone,ask them at the outset if they follow a school of thought,Leadbetter,Pugh,Harmon,Foley and if they mention any of those names,hang up![/size]
[size=5]I would imagine that in your neck of the woods there must be some old boy who could put you right in no time and failing that,do it yourself by going back to basics (GASP-grip,aim,stance,posture) and a big enough window to be able to check your position at the top with your reflection and plenty of meaningful practice sessions to develop golf muscle memory and an intense familiarity with your clubs so that they become a natural extension of yourself.[/size]
[size=5]What are you playing off at the moment?[/size]

[Nspiel58]

I'm of the opinion that my swing should always be under control and in-balance. I try to keep in mind that my swing arc will be greater if I'm able to achieve maximum extension. I can only do this if I'm relaxed (the 2 waggle helps immensely). As soon as I start thinking about "hitting it hard" I'm going to tighten up. If I tighten up, I don't finish my swing in a balanced way. Distance has never been an issue with me being 6 feet tall, long arms, athletic and very good extension. My goal is always to be in control of the whole swing. If I do that, the ball will go pretty much where it's supposed to. Hitting it hard - I try not to go there.

[guisician]

Agree with Nspiel58 that balance is key; it's no accident Hogan was reputed to be a fine dancer.

[scottishpedro]

I actually tested this out recently on a flightscope. My average 'normal' driver swing is 105mph. I then hit a few at my absolute max which were 116mph average, therefore I'm swinging at 90%.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389211321' post='8423577']
Actually I don't try to hit the ball, I'm working on swinging through the ball. If you look at Rory or Tiger, they don't much look like they hold anything back. If you can maintain your balance throughout the swing I would suggest you aren't swinging too hard. A lot of folks accelerate/lung from the top and actually end up decelerating through the impact zone, instead of "gradually" transitioning and accelerating through the impact zone.
[/quote]

As usual, Sean makes a great point. On full shots I'm going to swing as "hard" as possible as long as I can maintain 100% balance.

[birly-shirly]

@Okesa - isn't consistency the problem for almost everyone? I'd say so in my case, with the caveat that I seem to be more consistent in my scoring than other players at a similar handicap level. I'm a 13, and I almost always shoot low to mid 80s. I've met several guys at my club who routinely dip into the 70s but can just as easily come home in the 90s.

I've been to a local pro who has a very good reputation and a lesson diary full of much more accomplished players than me. If anything, I'd guess that what I really need is more time on the course learning to put the ball in the fairway in different wind conditions and fairway shapes - but work and family commitments make that kind of time, especially during daylight hours, hard to come by. Range time fixes are going to be so much easier for me to implement than on-the-course practice or getting in more competitive rounds.

[okesa]

[size=5]Yep,no question that golf is time consuming and a precious commodity when you have family commitments and the temptation is always to play nine holes rather than spend an hour or so hitting balls.[/size]
[size=5]I honestly think that practice is the key,both in building a repeating swing and also in creating an excellent short game and having a reliable putter,in my mind if you know you can get up and down from almost anywhere round the green or from 30/40 yards in it takes a lot of pressure off the rest of your game.[/size]