Streamsong , allround the best golf destination I have visited in the US

[BamafaninKY]

[quote name='benkodi' timestamp='1391527770' post='8596287']
[quote name='matthewsiv' timestamp='1391228203' post='8576148']
I was at Streamsong this week and here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

It is very over priced, which they can do as there is no alternative for 40 miles !
[color=#FF0000]The price has little to do with the location. It has to do with where they are trying to position their golf course and resort in the marketplace.[/color]

If you have played golf in Scotland or Ireland you will not be impressed, you would not pay £50 to play this
course or drive 10 minutes.
[color=#FF0000]Scotland and Ireland are not 80 degrees November through April while a large portion of the Eastern time zone is covered under snow. [/color]

Caddies $80 + tip per person and caddie carries 2 bags !
[color=#FF0000]A majority of Streamsong guests are accustomed to walking only/caddy required clubs. This is only a big deal for people who are used to cartball. [/color]

The Crenshaw course is boring and the 17th hole is probably the only hole you will remember.
[color=#FF0000]Absolutely ridiculous assessment. There are a number of wonderful holes on the Red. [/color]

I did not get to play the other course as it was rained out.
[color=#FF0000]Probably just fine. I'm sure you would have found it "too easy." [/color]

I got a rain check for 36 holes for my foursome,no offer of a refund !

The best hole is the par 3 warm up hole or 19th hole whichever way you want to play it.
[color=#FF0000]This sums up your idea of golf architecture beautifully...?[/color]

I stayed at the Hotel and it is very expensive as is the food and the architecture is horrible, it looks like a glass
warehouse.
[color=#FF0000]Compared to a Holiday Inn Express, yes. The food is far from terrible. [/color]

The staff are very nice.
[color=#FF0000]The staff [s]are[/s] IS very nice [/color]

I would not want to go back .

If abandon Dunes is like that you can keep it.
[color=#FF0000]I'm thinking you'd be pretty disappointed in Bandon as well.[/color]

Go play Turnberry, St Andrews , Carnoustie , Troon and see the real thing.

Go to Orlando and play the New Course at Grand Cypress, more fun and more courses to play in the area
[color=#000000]and you will not be ripped off.[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Again, speaks to your knowledge of architecture. Playing the overseeded New Course is JUST like true links golf. [/color]
[/quote]
[/quote]

LOL

Nicely said.

Streamsong is certainly polarizing. I don't think there's any debate over the quality of the course (I only played the Red, and btw, I recall many of the holes too). I understand the arugument that it is too expensive. It certainly is expensive, but for me it was well worth it. For others, perhaps not. I hope to return one day and although I may play the New Course again one day, I'm not exactly planning to.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='benkodi' timestamp='1391527770' post='8596287']
[quote name='matthewsiv' timestamp='1391228203' post='8576148']
I was at Streamsong this week and here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

It is very over priced, which they can do as there is no alternative for 40 miles !
[color=#ff0000]The price has little to do with the location. It has to do with where they are trying to position their golf course and resort in the marketplace.[/color]

If you have played golf in Scotland or Ireland you will not be impressed, you would not pay £50 to play this
course or drive 10 minutes.
[color=#ff0000]Scotland and Ireland are not 80 degrees November through April while a large portion of the Eastern time zone is covered under snow. [/color]

Caddies $80 + tip per person and caddie carries 2 bags !
[color=#ff0000]A majority of Streamsong guests are accustomed to walking only/caddy required clubs. This is only a big deal for people who are used to cartball. [/color]

[/quote]
[/quote]

I don't think the fact that Streamsong is in a warm climate, improves the golf course nor the value.

As for Streamsong guests being accustomed to walking, that my be true, but when they play Streamsong, they all seem to take a cart. I've been there 3 times and I'd estimate that somewhere close to 80%-90% are riding carts.

As for the hotel and clubhouse architecture? It's awful in my opinion and in the opinion of everyone I've ever talked with, who's seen it. I'm in the hotel business and I've been told they're getting serious guest resistance to the pricing and the "look".

[BamafaninKY]

I played there on a fairly busy Saturday and I didn't see one golfer in a cart. Not one.

I also loved the style of the clubhouse. It's out of the ordinary though to be sure.

[jj270]

Being from a mining state myself( coal/ Kentucky) I say it's great they put a course on the land. Even if they did it because its more cost effective than traditional reclamation with potential future earnings. Obviously given the people involved the project I'd think the management group had a clear vision on price point and potential customer base. Some will always say "over priced" and others will claim "you get what you pay for" when an upscale product or service is in question.

[BamafaninKY]

[quote name='jj270' timestamp='1391609680' post='8602549']
Being from a mining state myself( coal/ Kentucky) I say it's great they put a course on the land. Even if they did it because its more cost effective than traditional reclamation with potential future earnings. Obviously given the people involved the project I'd think the management group had a clear vision on price point and potential customer base. Some will always say "over priced" and others will claim "you get what you pay for" when an upscale product or service is in question.
[/quote]

I'm a Kentuckian as well. Have you played Victoria Nat'l near Evansville, IN? Another fine example of using mined land for a spectacular golf course.

[jj270]

I'm in Owensboro. Very close to Victoria national. Been there for web.com tourney but haven't played it. And yes it is beautiful

[lumberman2462]

[quote name='BamafaninKY' timestamp='1391611161' post='8602661']
[quote name='jj270' timestamp='1391609680' post='8602549']
Being from a mining state myself( coal/ Kentucky) I say it's great they put a course on the land. Even if they did it because its more cost effective than traditional reclamation with potential future earnings. Obviously given the people involved the project I'd think the management group had a clear vision on price point and potential customer base. Some will always say "over priced" and others will claim "you get what you pay for" when an upscale product or service is in question.
[/quote]

I'm a Kentuckian as well. Have you played Victoria Nat'l near Evansville, IN? Another fine example of using mined land for a spectacular golf course.
[/quote]

Who would've guessed there were so many fellow Kentuckians on here. Hello fellas.

The Vic is nice. Other than the fact that that particular property can be the absolute hottest place on the planet in August. I think it has something to do with the shale base continuing to radiate heat through the grass. I've almost passed out while wandering around out there.

I love the fact that they have a lighted putting green next to the golf cottages.....

[jj270]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1391613475' post='8602869']
[quote name='BamafaninKY' timestamp='1391611161' post='8602661']
[quote name='jj270' timestamp='1391609680' post='8602549']
Being from a mining state myself( coal/ Kentucky) I say it's great they put a course on the land. Even if they did it because its more cost effective than traditional reclamation with potential future earnings. Obviously given the people involved the project I'd think the management group had a clear vision on price point and potential customer base. Some will always say "over priced" and others will claim "you get what you pay for" when an upscale product or service is in question.
[/quote]

I'm a Kentuckian as well. Have you played Victoria Nat'l near Evansville, IN? Another fine example of using mined land for a spectacular golf course.
[/quote]

Who would've guessed there were so many fellow Kentuckians on here. Hello fellas.

The Vic is nice. Other than the fact that that particular property can be the absolute hottest place on the planet in August. I think it has something to do with the shale base continuing to radiate heat through the grass. I've almost passed out while wandering around out there.

I love the fact that they have a lighted putting green next to the golf cottages.....
[/quote]
Actually the hottest place on the planet isn't vic national but its close. Its really the Alcoa plant just down the road. I did 6 years on the pot lines there. Now that's hot!!

[BamafaninKY]

[quote name='jj270' timestamp='1391613415' post='8602863']
I'm in Owensboro. Very close to Victoria national. Been there for web.com tourney but haven't played it. And yes it is beautiful
[/quote]

It's a small virtual world. I live in Owensboro too. I bet we know each other.

[av1084]

Not sure if is is true or not, but I'll pass on what I heard when I was there in October. I was the first one at the resort at the crack of dawn (walked 36) so I had a bunch of time and chatted everyone up. I specifically asked about the hotel opening and the pricing, and was absolutely in shock at the cost too. Even the employees had almost embarrassing, sheepish looks on their face too.

Anyways, they said the plan was the continue the high pricing and to build an airstrip and helipad in the very very near future on site. They want businessmen all over the world to come. They said they are beginning to aggressively market in the oil world (Dubai, etc) and possibly open one or two more courses there (not in the near future, but are in planning stages).

Again, can't confirm this, but this is what a number of people who worked there told me. Apologies if this was already known.

As for the golf, it was the best golfing experience of my life, but that being said, I haven't been fortunate enough to play at many high end courses (TPC sawgrass being the "best"). I can't believe that people say some of the holes are boring, but that's just me. It was so different having only played classic Florida courses. I felt like I was on Mars! Was a steal at the 75$ resident rate with 60$? replay rate. For me.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='av1084' timestamp='1391957634' post='8628735']

As for the golf, it was the best golfing experience of my life, but that being said, I haven't been fortunate enough to play at many high end courses (TPC sawgrass being the "best"). I can't believe that people say some of the holes are boring, but that's just me. It was so different having only played classic Florida courses. I felt like I was on Mars! Was a steal at the 75$ resident rate with 60$? replay rate. For me.

[/quote]

If you've spent most of your life playing Florida golf courses, Streamsong is indeed, Mars!

As for all the "stories" that are being bandied about, there's a zillion of them. Quite honestly, I don't think anyone really knows what's going to happen there, but they're trying out all sorts of trial balloons to see what flies.

I hope they have the Florida Resident deal in the summer, I'm in for $75.

[cristphoto]

Not familiar with Streamsong. Where is it located? Thanks.

[lumberman2462]

[quote name='av1084' timestamp='1391957634' post='8628735']
Not sure if is is true or not, but I'll pass on what I heard when I was there in October. I was the first one at the resort at the crack of dawn (walked 36) so I had a bunch of time and chatted everyone up. I specifically asked about the hotel opening and the pricing, and was absolutely in shock at the cost too. Even the employees had almost embarrassing, sheepish looks on their face too.

Anyways, they said the plan was the continue the high pricing and to build an airstrip and helipad in the very very near future on site. They want businessmen all over the world to come. They said they are beginning to aggressively market in the oil world (Dubai, etc) and possibly open one or two more courses there (not in the near future, but are in planning stages).

Again, can't confirm this, but this is what a number of people who worked there told me. Apologies if this was already known.

As for the golf, it was the best golfing experience of my life, but that being said, I haven't been fortunate enough to play at many high end courses (TPC sawgrass being the "best"). I can't believe that people say some of the holes are boring, but that's just me. It was so different having only played classic Florida courses. I felt like I was on Mars! Was a steal at the 75$ resident rate with 60$? replay rate. For me.
[/quote]

Hard to see an airstrip and helipad being a sound investment. I guess stranger things happen everyday.

[av1084]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1391961558' post='8629051']
[quote name='av1084' timestamp='1391957634' post='8628735']
Not sure if is is true or not, but I'll pass on what I heard when I was there in October. I was the first one at the resort at the crack of dawn (walked 36) so I had a bunch of time and chatted everyone up. I specifically asked about the hotel opening and the pricing, and was absolutely in shock at the cost too. Even the employees had almost embarrassing, sheepish looks on their face too.

Anyways, they said the plan was the continue the high pricing and to build an airstrip and helipad in the very very near future on site. They want businessmen all over the world to come. They said they are beginning to aggressively market in the oil world (Dubai, etc) and possibly open one or two more courses there (not in the near future, but are in planning stages).

Again, can't confirm this, but this is what a number of people who worked there told me. Apologies if this was already known.

As for the golf, it was the best golfing experience of my life, but that being said, I haven't been fortunate enough to play at many high end courses (TPC sawgrass being the "best"). I can't believe that people say some of the holes are boring, but that's just me. It was so different having only played classic Florida courses. I felt like I was on Mars! Was a steal at the 75$ resident rate with 60$? replay rate. For me.
[/quote]

Hard to see an airstrip and helipad being a sound investment. I guess stranger things happen everyday.
[/quote]

I was taken aback when I heard that. The guy actually pointed to where they would be. But yeah, who knows.

[philsRHman]

Why would someone from from the UAE to play golf in Florida? Not like they need a winter getaway. It seems like their market will be as a mega high-end trip while the rest of the similar resorts deal with weather - Kohler and Greenbrier probably have the longest winter, but I'd guess that Bandon has a few months where the weather is too iffy. Are Kiawah and Pinehurst both 12 months, or are they hit and miss Dec-Feb?

But look at this list of best resorts of North America and you see the glaring fact that you don't find a single Florida property until the third page. As for it being in the "middle of nowhere" I'm looking at this list and there are certainly more remote, harder to get to destinations. I just think the biggest obstacle is fighting the idea that Florida golf is solid and abundant but never spectacular. Notice the prices of these places. If you're Streamsong you have to realize that people will stand up and take notice if your prices are high, because you're announcing you're on that level, basically putting a bull's-eye on your chest.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-11/75-best-golf-resorts-in-us

[wdm50]

I have read and looked at most post about Streamsong, Destination golf is the hottest thing for golf people and investor's , how does Bandon Dunes make it or go to Streamsong and you look at each other and go, how does this work, it is destination golf courses that are making the money today. I have been to Bandon and Streamsong in the last 6 months, let's face it Streamsong does not have the" Ocean", that is a big deal, Kiawah, Pebble, list goes on and on, I am not saying there are not nice courses that do not have the Ocean but the Ocean brings that mystery in the equation. Streamsong Red was a very nice course I thought with really not a bad hole on it "I felt", Was it the best I ever played , I don't think so, but the experience was outstanding, I actually also had a great ex-PGA caddie that now loops on the LPGA, probably the best that I have ever had anywhere, this guy was the best "grain" green reader. As far as the nicest golf course Pacific Dunes is close to my heart as is The Ocean course at Kiawah, and Pinehurst 2 "I was there in 99 when Payne Stewart won then went back few years later and played "and one more East Lake in Atlanta" I aced number 2" and the Booby Jones thing blows me away.I have not played them all but Peeble Beach is special I hear, that's next for me, and also some of the Ireland Courses are special, I could go on and on. I think the price's will adjust some at Streamsong when they find there target golfer, but as long as the tee sheet is full everyday it will not change, when it is 30 degree's in the US and 60 degree's there, there are people who do not care how much it cost. I think Streamsong will be a interesting model of courses to come, Destination golf is on the map and that is where it is going.

[stringbean502001]

Streamsong will make it. In my opinion, it is not overpriced...in fact, in comparison to other "destination" golf locations, it is middle of the pack in my experience--and is therefore priced about right, as the courses do not YET carry the prestige of the top destinations.

C&C course the best, but both are outstanding. The service was outstanding in every respect when we visited. Caddies at $100/bag very comparable again to the best locations.

Kemper knows what they are doing, and will manage this exceptionally well. The ONLY thing that I believe is going to seriously test the ability to prosper is the Florida summer---the traditional corporate exec customer to a "destination" will not come in the heat of the Florida summer, and to start cutting prices during that period (as do all Florida courses) will potentially test their "branding" strategy. Time will tell how they choose to handle that.

[wdm50]

[quote name='stringbean502001' timestamp='1392156728' post='8646893']
Streamsong will make it. In my opinion, it is not overpriced...in fact, in comparison to other "destination" golf locations, it is middle of the pack in my experience--and is therefore priced about right, as the courses do not YET carry the prestige of the top destinations.

C&C course the best, but both are outstanding. The service was outstanding in every respect when we visited. Caddies at $100/bag very comparable again to the best locations.

Kemper knows what they are doing, and will manage this exceptionally well. The ONLY thing that I believe is going to seriously test the ability to prosper is the Florida summer---the traditional corporate exec customer to a "destination" will not come in the heat of the Florida summer, and to start cutting prices during that period (as do all Florida courses) will potentially test their "branding" strategy. Time will tell how they choose to handle that.
[/quote]Stringbean, I do agree with you on almost all your topics , Kemper is top shelf and I felt lke the golf was reasonable service you get, I am also with you on the Florida heat down there, it will be very interesting to check out what the tee sheet looks like in , July, August and Sept ,that is one hot area with humidly galore, but with that being said I wish them years of prosperity in the Golf Course industry. Hit 'em straight as String, Stringbean.

[Marrrk]

Recently back from a buddies trip to Streamsong, so figured I should chime in.

As far as golf, it's probably the closest thing on the East Coast to the type of golf offered in Bandon, Cabot, NE Sand Hills, etc. This is even more true during the winter months when options are limited. The Doak/C&C design elements and playability philosophies you come to expect from those destinations are present and the Bermuda 419 runs about as fast and firm as you could expect from a Florida public course. If you're a fan of that style, there's nothing else in Florida public golf that really compares. For my group, from a pure golf perspective, it's quite easily our new #1 down there.

If I had to be critical, I would agree with some other posters that the overall vibe of the place is actually a much bigger factor than I would have imagined. The facilities are urban and cold and don't quite jibe with the expected feel of an isolated, golf-only getaway. It'll be interesting to see how they continue to position themselves as a minimalist, walkable, hardcore golf mecca as well as a super-luxe option for older couples and spa junkies, for whom golf is just another available activity.

That said, everyone on staff was excellent and the ship was run as tightly as one could hope. Most importantly for our group, they are extremely prepared to deal with awkward arrival/departure times.

[Loodle]

I had a chance to play the Red course yesterday so I figured I would weigh in. First off, I went with some older guys that figured they needed a cart. With cart path only, the cart just becomes a hassle. Walking would have been a way better option.

As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

Facility wise, the design is certainly not for everyone, if that matters. Service was great, seemed a little overstaffed even with a lot of groups playing.

I thoroughly enjoyed the experience, although I felt like it was a place for people of far greater financial means than myself. In my perfect world, I would take those courses, throw up a trailer as a clubhouse, and get the price down where more people could enjoy it, but I realize this is not their intent.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']

As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
[/quote]

The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393101950' post='8723336']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
[/quote]

The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But it wasn't. ; )

[Chris_NH]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393103501' post='8723476']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393101950' post='8723336']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
[/quote]

The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But it wasn't. ; )
[/quote]

It was, inasmuch as it was a mining site. That means that the features and contours are man-made, not carved by nature.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='Chris_NH' timestamp='1393105344' post='8723648']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393103501' post='8723476']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393101950' post='8723336']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
[/quote]

The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But it wasn't. ; )
[/quote]

It was, inasmuch as it was a mining site. That means that the features and contours are man-made, not carved by nature.
[/quote]

True. But consider that the mining was not done with any aesthetic consideration. Doak and C&C found it how it was left and created the courses using their usual minimalist construction methods. Interestingly, they also had a choice of sites within the massive amount of property owned by Mosaic; sites left quite a bit different from the one they both eventually chose. Should be cool to see how any future courses on those alternate sites differ in style.

[Chris_NH]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393106296' post='8723736']
[quote name='Chris_NH' timestamp='1393105344' post='8723648']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393103501' post='8723476']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393101950' post='8723336']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
[/quote]

The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But it wasn't. ; )
[/quote]

It was, inasmuch as it was a mining site. That means that the features and contours are man-made, not carved by nature.
[/quote]

True. But consider that the mining was not done with any aesthetic consideration. Doak and C&C found it how it was left and created the courses using their usual minimalist construction methods. Interestingly, they also had a choice of sites within the massive amount of property owned by Mosaic; sites left quite a bit different from the one they both eventually chose. Should be cool to see how any future courses on those alternate sites differ in style.
[/quote]

I understand all that. But the original comment - and the one to which you seemingly took exception - is that it doesn't look "natural". It is, in fact, not natural. That's the point.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='Chris_NH' timestamp='1393107436' post='8723844']
I understand all that. But the original comment - and the one to which you seemingly took exception - is that it doesn't look "natural". It is, in fact, not natural. That's the point.
[/quote]

In fairness, I didn't completely take exception. I asked the OP for clarification, fully prepared to concede that the site itself was not natural to how it was left by time alone. I assumed that went without saying and that the ensuing conversations were about slightly more nuanced aspects.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393103501' post='8723476']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393101950' post='8723336']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

[/quote]

What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
[/quote]

The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But it wasn't. ; )
[/quote]

I don't know where you're getting your information, but they moved a huge amount of dirt to create those golf courses, particularly the Red. I've played there twice and there's just nothing "real" about the place ... it looks like a moonscape.


You can go here and read Tom Doaks own words:

[url="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54831.0/wap2.html"]http://www.golfcluba...831.0/wap2.html[/url]

[Marrrk]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393108330' post='8723958']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393103501' post='8723476']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1393101950' post='8723336']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393099381' post='8723140']
[quote name='aliedel' timestamp='1393065721' post='8721020']
As for the course, they have done a fantastic job of making it rough enough around the edges to appear natural, although every once in awhile you remember it isn't. Has the look of a links course and some of the playing characteristics, aside from the forced carries. Not all of the holes are remarkable, but they showed restraint from pushing it too far (possible exception for the swails on 16 and 18 green, a little much).

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What do you mean by it not being natural? Do you mean the prior mining was not natural or the design and implementation of the course? As I understand it, very little earth was moved to create the course and all the vegetation is indigenous.
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The course looks like it was entirely manufactured, in my opinion.
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Fair enough. But it wasn't. ; )
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I don't know where you're getting your information, but they moved a huge amount of dirt to create those golf courses, particularly the Red. I've played there twice and there's just nothing "real" about the place ... it looks like a moonscape.


You can go here and read Tom Doaks own words:

[url="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54831.0/wap2.html"]http://www.golfcluba...831.0/wap2.html[/url]
[/quote]

Brian, I humbly admit that I may have overstated the case, especially with regards to the Red course. I am far more familiar with what was done on Blue, including everything mentioned by Tom. I am actually a frequent contributor on GCA and enthusiastic student of golf architecture, and in that spirit, and when compared with the vast majority of major modern courses, Blue (and Red, for that matter) moved little earth beyond what was necessary to make it at all playable (like creating favorable drainage, and filling in the many ponds left behind by mining, which... thank god they did). The bulk of what creates the strategy of the holes, particularly the green sites, is extremely close to what was there and my only real interest. So I do apologize for conflating the two.

If you'll allow me to clarify a bit further. I suppose my original curiosity about the OP's statement was to determine if he was speaking about SS not looking natural in the sense that the courses were highly manicured to make them appear more natural (which i contend they were not), or if he was purely speaking about the site itself being completely tossed over by man (which I concede it was).

One thing we can agree on: Sergio is all right.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1393111607' post='8724278']

Brian, I humbly admit that I may have overstated the case, especially with regards to the Red course. I am far more familiar with what was done on Blue, including everything mentioned by Tom. I am actually a frequent contributor on GCA and enthusiastic student of golf architecture, and in that spirit, and when compared with the vast majority of major modern courses, Blue (and Red, for that matter) moved little earth beyond what was necessary to make it at all playable (like creating favorable drainage, and filling in the many ponds left behind by mining, which... thank god they did). The bulk of what creates the strategy of the holes, particularly the green sites, is extremely close to what was there and my only real interest. So I do apologize for conflating the two.

If you'll allow me to clarify a bit further. I suppose my original curiosity about the OP's statement was to determine if he was speaking about SS not looking natural in the sense that the courses were highly manicured to make them appear more natural (which i contend they were not), or if he was purely speaking about the site itself being completely tossed over by man (which I concede it was).

One thing we can agree on: Sergio is all right.
[/quote]

No need to be humble, most of the rest of us aren't

Have you played the courses? There's nothing "manicured" about them, in my opinion. They did a good job at recreating a "natural" (for lack of a better word) landscape. I believe most of the surrounding vegetation is reasonably native to the area, although not necessarily to that site. Then again, considering it was a "mine", it's hard to determine what was ever native at that site.

They did a fabulous job on the courses, with what they had to work with, in my opinion. I don't love either one of them, I think they're over-priced. I don't really like the architecture of the hotel or clubhouse, but I can't really fault the courses for what they are.

When I used the word "manufactured", I mean that it was "created", not sketched out of native topography as Donald Ross may have done. That doesn't make it bad or good ... it is what it is. I happen to know a lot about earth moving, so I look at a site and have some clue what it was in the recent past, others may not view it that way.

As for the current crop of golf courses, there doesn't seem to be as much earth moving as in the 80's & early 90's, it's simply too expensive.