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Manual de la Torre Method

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  • WILDTHINGWILDTHING  621WRX Points: 1Handicap: 15Banned Posts: 621
    Joined:  edited Jun 24, 2018 #962
    juststeve wrote:


    To be complete, while Manny taught that the weight remained equal on each foot right and left, he would agree that the distribution changes on each foot individually. At address the weight is flat on each foot, in the manner [it would be if you were just standing erect. As the back swing progresses the weight on the front foot moves toward the ball of the foot, the weight on the rear foot toward the heel. You may be able to see that in the picture above, but I have seen it illustrated better. Mind you there is nothing deliberate about this shift, it is just a natural response.



    Steve




    If I've interpreted this correctly , is MDLT advocating that your COM stay centred (as much as you can) as you pivot but there won't be much COP changes from one leg to the other but only across each foot (heel to toe from backswing to impact) ?



    What did MDLT say about ball position ? It might be correct to stay balanced at address by ensuring the clubface is placed opposite your midline and square to the target line but normally (and dynamically) at impact, the bottom of the swing is closer to your lead armpit than under the sternum notch. Shawn Clement also advocates the same, that the bottom of the swing is under the sternum notch but that's one of his opinions that I don't wholly agree with . I think at address, certainly have the COG of the clubhead opposite your midline (ie. sternum notch) , but dynamically, when you do 'perpetual motion type' practice swings, one can see/feel where the club is brushing the grass and you would use that to judge ball position at address.
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  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
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    Wild Thing:



    Controversially, Manny taught us to address every regular shot, with every club, with the CLUBHEAD in the center of our stance and the ball just on the target side of the cub head. Although he got some3 push back from some knowledgeable teachers this remained his preference throughout.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • SirFuegoSirFuego  259WRX Points: 111Members Posts: 259
    Joined:  edited Jun 25, 2018 #964
    juststeve wrote:

    SirFuego wrote:

    Owly wrote:
    The 'hands takeaway' is still something I'm not sure if i have 100% right...but I feel like I don't have to worry about it to make solid contact. Even if I don't have the perfect position on the takeaway, the results are always good.




    I have no idea if this is a "MDLT-approved" visual, but I think of the hands takeaway as if you are throwing a bag of laundry (or a bindle -- the bag on a stick you typically associate with a hobo) as high as you can over your trail shoulder. You can probably experiment on the location over your shoulder you try to "throw" to (anywhere in between the trail side of your neck to the outer shoulder), I get the best results as if I'm "throwing" the club as close to the side of my neck as possible. Of course that's just a feel, so I might actually be throwing it over my armpit or somewhere similar, so YMMV.




    Not a bad image since the sense of throwing the club will provide you with enough momentum to elicit a proper response from the body. I do worry however about the idea of throwing the club "as high as you can" over the trail shoulder. Doing that creates the risk of expanding your swing radius which is bound to lead to inconsistency. You want the radius of your swing to remain as constant as possible.



    Steve




    Thanks for the feedback. I think I just didn't describe what I meant correctly and could definitely understand how it could be mis-interpreted.



    That said, I have been doing some experimenting and found that I now can get better results "placing" the club above my right shoulder (which is from my understanding the actual thing that MDLT taught) as opposed to throwing it. I have battled with too much tension in my swing and the thought of "throwing" the club really helped me to loosen my swing up. That said, I think it was an overcorrection because it made my swing too loose, very dependent on the "throw" being perfect, and the downswing transition happening at the right time. "Placing" seems to give me a much more easily repeatable swing, but the "throwing" motion (for me at least) ended up being a good exaggeration move to better understand a tension-free swing as well as how the wrists work.
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  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
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    Words can be confusing. Do I swing the club over my trail shoulder or do I place it there? A bit of each I would say. I place the club over my trail shoulder but I don't do it by lifting or levering the club, I do it by swinging the club. Does that make sense



    Steve
    Posted:
  • Santiago GolfSantiago Golf I Strive to make you Better  5093WRX Points: 197Handicap: ???Members Posts: 5,093
    Joined:  #966
    juststeve wrote:


    Wild Thing:



    Controversially, Manny taught us to address every regular shot, with every club, with the CLUBHEAD in the center of our stance and the ball just on the target side of the cub head. Although he got some3 push back from some knowledgeable teachers this remained his preference throughout.



    Steve




    This is correct. The only club I have my golfers play "up" in their stance is a driver. I may have a better player hit their wedges slight back and their longer clubs slightly forward, but this is only for players who don't struggle with consistent solid contact; otherwise leave it in center
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  • SirFuegoSirFuego  259WRX Points: 111Members Posts: 259
    Joined:  #967
    juststeve wrote:


    Words can be confusing. Do I swing the club over my trail shoulder or do I place it there? A bit of each I would say. I place the club over my trail shoulder but I don't do it by lifting or levering the club, I do it by swinging the club. Does that make sense



    Steve


    Yes I'd say that makes sense. I think that also describes well why he is so adamant about using the hands in the backswing as that's the only way it seems I can get that feeling of placing the club over my shoulder with a swinging motion.
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  • baudibaudi  684WRX Points: 111Members Posts: 684
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    Unfortunately Mr De la Torre writes (virtually) nothing about ball position in his book.
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  • SirFuegoSirFuego  259WRX Points: 111Members Posts: 259
    Joined:  edited Jun 25, 2018 #969
    baudi wrote:


    Unfortunately Mr De la Torre writes (virtually) nothing about ball position in his book.




    It's probably because he just advocates the same ball position for all clubs, so there really isn't a lot more for him to discuss?



    At the beginning of chapter 2, he says, "Place the clubhead behind the golf ball such that...the clubhead, not the ball, is in center between your feet. This is the same for all clubs and for all normal shots (those that have normal height and are directed straight to the target)" He then describes what he means by the "center of your feet" (midpoint between shoulders and the ground).



    In chapter 5, he talks about the potential effects if the ball is too far forward (pull, high trajectory) or too far back in the stance (push, low trajectory).



    In chapter 9, he talks about two ways to vary trajectory. While he prefers just taking a higher or lower lofted club for the desired trajectory when possible, it is acceptable to play the ball forward (for a high shot) or backward (for a low shot). If the ball is played, for example, 2 inches forward, the clubhead should still be in the center of your stance, but 2 inches behind the ball at address.
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  • LedgerLedger  1WRX Points: 0Handicap: 18Members Posts: 1
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    I want to thank juststeve for his suggestion about swinging with your feet together. I actually have learned from this forum in the past but never joined. Juststeve's comments and suggestions are spot on IMO. Years ago I read Manuel's book and played the best golf of my life for a year. Then some unhelpful bystander mentioned my swing was all arms and I went off on many different methods. In trying to get back to this method, swinging with my feet together really helped me to retain balance and a good circle for my swing..........the proof is how far the ball goes, toward the target.........even with my feet together - thanks juststeve ! In addition to rereading the book and watching the videos etc. I am going to Heartland Golf school to get some coaching from Ed.
    Posted:
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee  1777WRX Points: 170Members Posts: 1,777
    Joined:  edited Jul 5, 2018 #971
    Index dropped from 8.6 to 5.5 in the last six weeks and trending further downwards. Only offline shots seem to appear when focus is not fully on target (usually a block to the right).
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  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  edited Jul 5, 2018 #972
    Ledger and Golfbeat:



    Glad you guys are having success. Now words of wisdom almost as Manny would impart them: Now that you know what to do, and you know that when you do it it works, just keep working to do it better and more consistently. Nothing more needs to be added.



    The danger you face is information overload which will tempt you to try something else, some new method, some tip. Surely it can't be as simple as Manny said it was. If fact it isn't simple, it is profound. Focus on moving the club as you should and your body will move to accommodate the motion.



    Continued better golf.



    Steve
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  • PreppySlapCutPreppySlapCut This is just babytown frolics...  6555WRX Points: 241Members Posts: 6,555
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    juststeve wrote:


    Ledger and Golfbeat:



    Glad you guys are having success. Now words of wisdom almost as Manny would impart them: Now that you know what to do, and you know that when you do it it works, just keep working to do it better and more consistently. Nothing more needs to be added.



    The danger you face is information overload which will tempt you to try something else, some new method, some tip. Surely it can't be as simple as Manny said it was. If fact it isn't simple, it is profound. Focus on moving the club as you should and your body will move to accommodate the motion.



    Continued better golf.



    Steve


    As brilliant a teacher as he was, this may have been his most valuable statement. If I remember correctly, his father gave him that advice while he was competing at Northwestern.
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  • Swingman420Swingman420  173WRX Points: 0Banned Posts: 173
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    I’m an EJ dude. MDLT is top notch also. My fave quote of his is “It’s amazing what you can do in this game if you just do simple things!”

    After you commit to being a swinger of the club and commit to it you find just how enjoyable the game really is.

    Been doing the same thing for years now and love it.

    I love the other quote as well “What is it that you’re trying to do?”

    It’s very strange to me that people tend to write this off. The I need to know the biomechanics exactly to the minutiae folks. All one can say is good luck with that concept. Look around and see the utter confusion.

    Thank you, JustSteve for sharing firsthand experience from a Hall of Fame instructor.
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  #975


    I'm an EJ dude. MDLT is top notch also. My fave quote of his is "It's amazing what you can do in this game if you just do simple things!"

    After you commit to being a swinger of the club and commit to it you find just how enjoyable the game really is.

    Been doing the same thing for years now and love it.

    I love the other quote as well "What is it that you're trying to do?"

    It's very strange to me that people tend to write this off. The I need to know the biomechanics exactly to the minutiae folks. All one can say is good luck with that concept. Look around and see the utter confusion.

    Thank you, JustSteve for sharing firsthand experience from a Hall of Fame instructor.




    From time to time I have fellow members approach me on the practice tee and ask for a bit of help. I ask them the same question, what are you trying to do? Invariably the answer will have something to do with their body motion, never the motion of the club. That's why they need help. I recommend the book. Some read it and improve, most just keep trying to hit the ball with their bodies.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • Boomer3Boomer3  61WRX Points: 0Handicap: 5Members Posts: 61
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    juststeve wrote:


    From time to time I have fellow members approach me on the practice tee and ask for a bit of help. I ask them the same question, what are you trying to do? Invariably the answer will have something to do with their body motion, never the motion of the club. That's why they need help. I recommend the book. Some read it and improve, most just keep trying to hit the ball with their bodies.



    Steve




    Steve do you know any MDLT method instructors in Wisconsin that you would recommend?
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  #977
    Boomer3 wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    From time to time I have fellow members approach me on the practice tee and ask for a bit of help. I ask them the same question, what are you trying to do? Invariably the answer will have something to do with their body motion, never the motion of the club. That's why they need help. I recommend the book. Some read it and improve, most just keep trying to hit the ball with their bodies.



    Steve




    Steve do you know any MDLT method instructors in Wisconsin that you would recommend?




    A couple of guys in Fond Du Lac called Greg Guenther and Jeremiah Hoffman. All I know about them is they try to teach what Manny taught, how well I don't know.



    Steve
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  • baudibaudi  684WRX Points: 111Members Posts: 684
    Joined:  edited Jul 10, 2018 #978
    There is a book by John Hayes I have been tempting to read for a long time. Who recommends it and why?
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  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  #979
    John Hayes is a good guy who knows what Manny taught and does a good job of teaching the same concepts. I've never read his book.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • TheTigerBuckTheTigerBuck  2WRX Points: 52Members Posts: 2
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    juststeve, I want to extend a huge "thank you" for your many insights into Manuel de la Torre and his teachings. I'm in my 50s and I wish I would've discovered Mr. de la Torre 30 years ago.



    Anyway, I have a question. In one of the threads you said you have a few go-to "feels" that you use, and depending on the day, you use one of them as you start your round. I'm wondering if you can describe what those feels are?
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  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  #981


    juststeve, I want to extend a huge "thank you" for your many insights into Manuel de la Torre and his teachings. I'm in my 50s and I wish I would've discovered Mr. de la Torre 30 years ago.



    Anyway, I have a question. In one of the threads you said you have a few go-to "feels" that you use, and depending on the day, you use one of them as you start your round. I'm wondering if you can describe what those feels are?




    Manny NEVER taught feels. He would tell you what to do with the club but if you asked him what that felt like he would say "I have no idea what that will feel like to you". Having told the student what to do he left it to the student to discover what it felt like to them. Therefore when I tell you what a proper swinging motion feels like to me it is not so you can chase the feels. Capturing my feels might do you more harm that good. That said my four primary feels are:



    1. That the club reaches maximum speed after impact. Not true but it is a prophylactic against slowing down prior to impact.



    2. That I am swinging the club past my body in both directions. The back swing is away from the target and past my body. The forward swing is toward the target and past me body. Keeps my center steady.



    3. That I return the club to the address position at impact. Not true but the feeling of doing so produces center face contact even though the handle of the club is in reality well left or its address position. Sam Snead employed the same feeling when his swing got off, or so he wrote.



    4. That I am swinging up on the ball. True in a limited sense. In any good swing there is a point when the hands have begun to swing up and the club head is still moving down into the ball. I want that point to coincide with impact but like a lot of folks have the tendency to swing my hands down at the ball, not the club head. Manny would point out that that is a violation of the swing principle. I cure it by feeling that I am swinging up through the ball.



    Beware. There are feels which work for me. No reason to think they will work for someone else.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • chippa13chippa13  2510WRX Points: 268Members Posts: 2,510
    Joined:  #982
    After a couple scuffling rounds I put the "clubhead over the back shoulder" thought back into my practice swing and was back down to an 85 yesterday. Actual swing was just (for me) smooth, target focused fun.
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  • The PearlThe Pearl  1987WRX Points: 124Members Posts: 1,987
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    Steve,



    I am running into an occasional "across the line" with my longer clubs. I can't find anywhere where Manny addresses this issue. Any thoughts?
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  #984
    The Pearl wrote:


    Steve,



    I am running into an occasional "across the line" with my longer clubs. I can't find anywhere where Manny addresses this issue. Any thoughts?




    I assume you mean at the end of your back swing.



    In that position, if your club reaches parallel to the ground, the goal is to have the shaft also be parallel to the target line. If you swing past parallel you will be a bit across the line.



    I don't know of a way to achieve the parallel other than rehearsing using both hands to swing it back to that position. I wouldn't obsess about getting that position perfect unless you have some ball flight problem to correct.



    The really important parallels are those just before and just after impact. Those I work on.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl  1987WRX Points: 124Members Posts: 1,987
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    Thank You, Steve.
    Posted:
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee  1777WRX Points: 170Members Posts: 1,777
    Joined:  #986
    juststeve wrote:



    juststeve, I want to extend a huge "thank you" for your many insights into Manuel de la Torre and his teachings. I'm in my 50s and I wish I would've discovered Mr. de la Torre 30 years ago.



    Anyway, I have a question. In one of the threads you said you have a few go-to "feels" that you use, and depending on the day, you use one of them as you start your round. I'm wondering if you can describe what those feels are?




    Manny NEVER taught feels. He would tell you what to do with the club but if you asked him what that felt like he would say "I have no idea what that will feel like to you". Having told the student what to do he left it to the student to discover what it felt like to them. Therefore when I tell you what a proper swinging motion feels like to me it is not so you can chase the feels. Capturing my feels might do you more harm that good. That said my four primary feels are:



    1. That the club reaches maximum speed after impact. Not true but it is a prophylactic against slowing down prior to impact.



    2. That I am swinging the club past my body in both directions. The back swing is away from the target and past my body. The forward swing is toward the target and past me body. Keeps my center steady.



    3. That I return the club to the address position at impact. Not true but the feeling of doing so produces center face contact even though the handle of the club is in reality well left or its address position. Sam Snead employed the same feeling when his swing got off, or so he wrote.



    4. That I am swinging up on the ball. True in a limited sense. In any good swing there is a point when the hands have begun to swing up and the club head is still moving down into the ball. I want that point to coincide with impact but like a lot of folks have the tendency to swing my hands down at the ball, not the club head. Manny would point out that that is a violation of the swing principle. I cure it by feeling that I am swinging up through the ball.



    Beware. There are feels which work for me. No reason to think they will work for someone else.



    Steve




    Can't believe how well the "swinging the arms past the body" works. Goes so much against what I have heard and believed before. Mike Bender, the coach of Zach Johnson also uses this as a swing concept. Turning much less with the body and letting rather the arms turn a passive/reactive body works so much better for me.
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
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    I saw Bender on a you tube. He was talking about starting the forward swing by swinging the club down rapidly with the arms. He said he never saw anyone do that whose hips didn't turn through the shot. Neither have I.



    Steve
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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee  1777WRX Points: 170Members Posts: 1,777
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    Steve,



    I wanted to send you a PM but probably your inbox is full? Anyhow my question is this.



    I understand that in the back swing Manuel wanted us to swing (or put?) the club over the right shoulder with both hands. I am not clear, however, on the direction that this swinging motion should take. Is it a swing vertically (hinging up) or is it more horizontally like moving it first to the east to where the club will be parallel to the ground and the target line. I understand that it has to hit this position whatever the intend is but is that more a result of the body reacting to a vertical hinge motion or an actual intent to put the club there first?



    Thanks for your help.
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  5004WRX Points: 430Members Posts: 5,004
    Joined:  #989
    Golfbeat:



    On a tilted circle.That means back, in and up right off the bail. A good checkpoint is the first time the shaft is parallel to the ground. It should also be parallel t the target line, toe upward, how much depends on your grip.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44  333WRX Points: 91Handicap: 9.2Members Posts: 333
    Joined:  #990
    Ledger wrote:


    I want to thank juststeve for his suggestion about swinging with your feet together. I actually have learned from this forum in the past but never joined. Juststeve's comments and suggestions are spot on IMO. Years ago I read Manuel's book and played the best golf of my life for a year. Then some unhelpful bystander mentioned my swing was all arms and I went off on many different methods. In trying to get back to this method, swinging with my feet together really helped me to retain balance and a good circle for my swing..........the proof is how far the ball goes, toward the target.........even with my feet together - thanks juststeve ! In addition to rereading the book and watching the videos etc. I am going to Heartland Golf school to get some coaching from Ed.




    How was your Heartland Golf School experience?

    I've been considering attending that school.
    Posted:
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  • Jersey golferJersey golfer  471WRX Points: 88Handicap: 14.9Members Posts: 471
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    BigEx44 wrote:

    Ledger wrote:


    I want to thank juststeve for his suggestion about swinging with your feet together. I actually have learned from this forum in the past but never joined. Juststeve's comments and suggestions are spot on IMO. Years ago I read Manuel's book and played the best golf of my life for a year. Then some unhelpful bystander mentioned my swing was all arms and I went off on many different methods. In trying to get back to this method, swinging with my feet together really helped me to retain balance and a good circle for my swing..........the proof is how far the ball goes, toward the target.........even with my feet together - thanks juststeve ! In addition to rereading the book and watching the videos etc. I am going to Heartland Golf school to get some coaching from Ed.




    How was your Heartland Golf School experience?

    I've been considering attending that school.




    I too would like to read about your experience there.
    Posted:
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