Manual de la Torre Method

[DaveLeeNC]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

As you say….essentially you were not doing what he taught.   You could warn against any swing idea that way.

I did not say that (the bolded stuff quoted). Maybe you have MDLT specific stuff that I don't have (I was mostly going from his book which I have loaned to a neighbor). But the essence that I took away (re: how I internalized his teaching) was that you learn how the arms work and the rest mostly follows naturally with a few tweaks discussed in his 'faults and fixes' section (although I don't think that is what he called it). In my case I remained very inconsistent and I did not find that section helpful to me. But there is no discussion at all about a detailed evaluation of what is going on at a relatively technical level. It isn't like I didn't turn at all, but I did not have a good pivot. It isn't like I didn't shift my weight, but my sequencing was off. It took some detailed work to fix all this that is (IMHO) the antithesis of what MDLT teaches. It was that simplicity that got my interest and that simplicity is what failed me (an experiment of one, so ....). 

 

dave

[Shilgy]

24 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I did not say that (the bolded stuff quoted). Maybe you have MDLT specific stuff that I don't have (I was mostly going from his book which I have loaned to a neighbor). But the essence that I took away (re: how I internalized his teaching) was that you learn how the arms work and the rest mostly follows naturally with a few tweaks discussed in his 'faults and fixes' section (although I don't think that is what he called it). In my case I remained very inconsistent and I did not find that section helpful to me. But there is no discussion at all about a detailed evaluation of what is going on at a relatively technical level. It isn't like I didn't turn at all, but I did not have a good pivot. It isn't like I didn't shift my weight, but my sequencing was off. It took some detailed work to fix all this that is (IMHO) the antithesis of what MDLT teaches. It was that simplicity that got my interest and that simplicity is what failed me (an experiment of one, so ....). 

 

dave

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly.  You were not doing it correctly if you had the issues stated.  Apparently you did not allow you’re body to react to the swinging of the arms.

 

The golf swing is a funny thing.  Players can choose to feel what they wish is “driving their swing” if all is moving correctly.  You have guys claiming the opposite of MDLT and that they just turn their body back and fro and the arms are along for the ride.  Yet, if they truly did that the arms would be miles behind the pivot and have no chance of hitting a decent shot.

 

It sounds to me like you skipped MLDT’s description comparing the swing to a column of soldiers marching.  The guy in front IS leading but they are all moving together.  He doesn’t take the first step…and the one behind is just a bit behind…and the next a bit later and so on.  It would be a disjointed mess.

The swing is the similar. If you felt your arms swiping weakly across your chest(previous page so I’m not going back but it was along that idea) then you did not allow the body to react/ essentially not doing the teaching.

 

It is a good example of why it’s so difficult for us to self learn a new pattern.

[Nels55]

31 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I did not say that (the bolded stuff quoted). Maybe you have MDLT specific stuff that I don't have (I was mostly going from his book which I have loaned to a neighbor). But the essence that I took away (re: how I internalized his teaching) was that you learn how the arms work and the rest mostly follows naturally with a few tweaks discussed in his 'faults and fixes' section (although I don't think that is what he called it). In my case I remained very inconsistent and I did not find that section helpful to me. But there is no discussion at all about a detailed evaluation of what is going on at a relatively technical level. It isn't like I didn't turn at all, but I did not have a good pivot. It isn't like I didn't shift my weight, but my sequencing was off. It took some detailed work to fix all this that is (IMHO) the antithesis of what MDLT teaches. It was that simplicity that got my interest and that simplicity is what failed me (an experiment of one, so ....). 

 

dave

I had the same experience with MDLT and also Earnest Jones, Frankel Brothers and Ron Sisson's teaching.  I found that no amount of swinging the arms or the clubhead or whatever would fix my mechanical flaws and the longer I tried the worse I got.  LOL unlike you I kept trying over and over again as the years went by.  Never worked for more then a round or two at the most for me. 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If you felt your arms swiping weakly across your chest

Just for clarification I did not "feel my arms swiping weakly across my chest". I was told that by my current instructor. 

 

dave

[OnRails]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:38 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

@OnRails Something to be cautious about here. I gave MDLT a serious pass last year. The results were basically mixed, but it sure was simple. After that  I decided to get serious about the state of my game. My first video review (with a teacher well respected here on WRX) would be summarized as "I had no turn or wrist set and I was just wiping my arms across my chest". That (apparently) is how I internalized MDLT's teaching. 

 

I am not saying that it cannot work. But (in my case) the phrase 'things should be made as simple as possible but not any simpler than that' certainly applied. 

 

dave

 

I think you are right in this respect.

 

My friend who has been playing forever watched a MDLT video with me before we played last week and it totally wrecked his game. He just couldn't get it. Didn't resonate with him at all and he got the wrong intent based on the words used. 

 

Did you ever get any in person instruction with a coach who teaches this way? 

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, OnRails said:

 

I think you are right in this respect.

 

My friend who has been playing forever watched a MDLT video with me before we played last week and it totally wrecked his game. He just couldn't get it. Didn't resonate with him at all and he got the wrong intent based on the words used. 

 

Did you ever get any in person instruction with a coach who teaches this way? 

 

 

No I did not and that might well have made a huge difference.  dave

[MoneyMan300]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:48 PM, Shilgy said:

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly.  You were not doing it correctly if you had the issues stated.  Apparently you did not allow you’re body to react to the swinging of the arms.

 

The golf swing is a funny thing.  Players can choose to feel what they wish is “driving their swing” if all is moving correctly.  You have guys claiming the opposite of MDLT and that they just turn their body back and fro and the arms are along for the ride.  Yet, if they truly did that the arms would be miles behind the pivot and have no chance of hitting a decent shot.

 

It sounds to me like you skipped MLDT’s description comparing the swing to a column of soldiers marching.  The guy in front IS leading but they are all moving together.  He doesn’t take the first step…and the one behind is just a bit behind…and the next a bit later and so on.  It would be a disjointed mess.

The swing is the similar. If you felt your arms swiping weakly across your chest(previous page so I’m not going back but it was along that idea) then you did not allow the body to react/ essentially not doing the teaching.

 

It is a good example of why it’s so difficult for us to self learn a new pattern.

I think some of the issue with the MDLT method is that it seems all by feel, and everyone feels things differently.  You tell 10 people to "swing the arms" and you are going to get 10 different feels and results.   What attracts people to this method is the perceived simplicity.   The problem is, the golf swing isn't that simple.

Edited March 30 by MoneyMan300

[mocokid]

On 3/29/2024 at 10:35 PM, OnRails said:

 

I think you are right in this respect.

 

My friend who has been playing forever watched a MDLT video with me before we played last week and it totally wrecked his game. He just couldn't get it. Didn't resonate with him at all and he got the wrong intent based on the words used. 

 

Did you ever get any in person instruction with a coach who teaches this way? 

 

 

One video ain't gonna do it.  John Hayes is a manny pga pro I work with in florida. Freebird is an on line resource.  Have to make the full commitment. Good luck 👍 

[OnRails]

9 hours ago, mocokid said:

One video ain't gonna do it.  John Hayes is a manny pga pro I work with in florida. Freebird is an on line resource.  Have to make the full commitment. Good luck 👍 

Thanks. I'm fully aware of this.  I think people just latch on to swing with the arms and are lead astray. 

 

My impression is this thread is a bit mistitled. It's more of a method of instruction than it is a method of how to swing a golf club. Although the book is a very good description of what happens in a golf swing. 

 

Freebird has been a good resource. Can't see anywhere if he does video lessons. I know John Hayes does. I've also looked into Trish down in Florida. Nobody in my area that I know of. 

 

Might be worth a trip down. A flight from Charlotte to Tampa is only around $80 round trip. 

[OnRails]

Just an update. I'd rather post here than start a new thread as what I have to say is said in the context of the entire thread. 

 

So far this is working very nicely for me. I can actually pick targets and get pretty close to hitting them 8/10 times. The instruction on alignment and set up are money for me. 

 

Hasn't translated to score improvements yet but that is to be expected. Hasn't made it worse either. 

 

I did reach out to Trish Beucher down in Florida as she teaches this way. That was very helpful and I will say she is very approachable and was generous with her time answering my questions even via email. I plan to make a trip down for an in-person lesson. 

 

As with anything, it takes practice and studying. I've found that the words used have very specific meanings and you can't leave any of them out. For example, it's hard  to hear "swing the whole club forward with the arms and let the body respond" and then not think "swing with the arms". There is nuance there that is often missed. You left out the "whole club" part. Not to mention the forward. And the body. It's all there, we just tend to be focused on a part and not the whole.

 

Anyway, long winded way to say I have put some time into it, seen the potential, and will continue to seek guidance and understanding. 

 

One last thing. I don't think I've seen this posted before, but Gary Sowinski was a student of Manuel and teaches in California. This video was interesting to me. The first part is basically selling the method of instruction, but the last bit where he teaches the lady is eye opening. Hope it helps anyone going down this road. 

 

 

Edited April 9 by OnRails

[BeTheBall_]

On 3/30/2024 at 1:33 PM, MoneyMan300 said:

I think some of the issue with the MDLT method is that it seems all by feel, and everyone feels things differently.  You tell 10 people to "swing the arms" and you are going to get 10 different feels and results.   What attracts people to this method is the perceived simplicity.   The problem is, the golf swing isn't that simple.

 

No-one attempting to follow MDLT's methods should be swinging their arms (this would certainly lead to different/poor results) - they should be swinging the club.

 

 

[tm3]

13 hours ago, OnRails said:

 

As with anything, it takes practice and studying. I've found that the words used have very specific meanings and you can't leave any of them out. For example, it's hard  to hear "swing the whole club forward with the arms and let the body respond" and then not think "swing with the arms". There is nuance there that is often missed. You left out the "whole club" part. Not to mention the forward. And the body. It's all there, we just tend to be focused on a part and not the whole.

 

Nice info, thanks for putting it out.  Please follow up with how the lesson with Trish goes.

 

You are for sure correct about the nuance.

[OnRails]

On 7/30/2014 at 7:06 AM, juststeve said:

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1406728028' post='9816247']
Barry, it's $10 for kindle on amazon: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Golf-Swing-Manuel-Torre/dp/1886346518/ref=la_B001JP0XBG_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406727868&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co...06727868&sr=1-1[/url]

Decided to re-do those videos...they were worthless. Anyway, I think I'm beginning to understand the feeling of back with the hands, forward with the arms. Finally beginning to feel comfortable hitting off the ground rather than teeing up, and my shots are becoming more consistent. What do you trained eyes see?

[media=]http://youtu.be/Eg8ewTtsQhs[/media]
[media=]http://youtu.be/6bNw590PbHU[/media]
[/quote]

Rondo01

Looking better. You might think about maintaining the radius of your swing better than you are doing. Manny would probably tell you top keep your hands away from your head at the top of the swing. Someone else might focus on keeping your right elbow a bit straighter, no less than a 90 degree angle at the top. If you let the radius get narrow in the back swing you have to restore it before impact and that's just one more complication.

Keep up the good work.

Steve

 

 

Just reading back through the thread, this quote from juststeve helped me today. I work from home and have a net in my backyard so I can experiment often. 

 

It wasn't the same issue or "fix" that Steve eluded to exactly, but here was my observation from today and I started generating a lot more speed and consistency without trying as hard. 

 

"Swing the clubhead back with both hands in the direction of the shoulder so that the CLUB ends up over the shoulder."

 

This does not mean that the clubhead itself will travel over the shoulder.  If it does, especially on longer clubs, I destroy the radius of the swing arc. 

 

The clubhead actually feels like it travels behind and around my shoulder which does result in the club over. 

 

And on the forward swing, the opposite is true.

 

Both things go together. 

 

For me, doing it this way gives me a nice wide arc on the backswing which sets me up nicely for the forward swing.

 

My symptom was topping or thinning the ball too often. I suspect this was a result of having to make adjustments on the forward swing. 

 

Just an idea as I continue to learn and implement. 

Edited April 11 by OnRails