Manual de la Torre Method

[NoTalentLefty]

22 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I believe there are very few competent instructors, so a player may be best served by learning from a book. Either with lessons from an instructor,  or from a book, there is no reason teaching-learning good effective technique should ever be a time consuming or complicated thing. The teaching-learning component can be done in a few minutes; it is the practicing which takes hundreds to thousands of hours.

Not sure of that there are few competent instructors but MDLT pros are few and far between. Manuel’s book is easy to read and relate to as easy as any instruction book I ever read. Practice absolutely. 

[Hilts1969]

13 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Not so sure it can’t be taught by reading his book but anything is better with an instructor. 

 

I've read his book and seen most of the available videos. 

[bladehunter]

15 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Exactly what it says really

So literally an instructor is required ? 

[NoTalentLefty]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

So literally an instructor is required ? 

In my experience it’s a yes/no. I had an instructor who taught something very close to Mdlt about 30 years ago. Set up was the same , the only thing different was the mantra swing through the back inside quad of the golf ball by the instructor. Had a OTT he was trying to correct. So I had some foundation to build on. Now the OTT is gone don’t really need the mantra. Problem is getting back to MDLT type swing due to my dam experimenting the last 15 years due to hip replacements. Never should of left the method but thought I needed to for some lame excuse.

[Hilts1969]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

So literally an instructor is required ? 

 

For the overwhelming majority(always a chance of an outlier however unlikely) otherwise golf coaches would spend all their time signing books and not teaching. 

 

There is an endless list of faults that cannot be rectified by swing the club over your right shoulder using your hands. There is a good reason MDLT grabbed students in his lessons and actually showed them what that meant so they could feel it.

 

That student may have felt he was starting the club more inside than what he was used to. He wouldn't get that from the book. That's just one simple example of many I could list.

 

I wish I could have had a lesson from the man his swing was poetry.

[NoTalentLefty]

14 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

For the overwhelming majority(always a chance of an outlier however unlikely) otherwise golf coaches would spend all their time signing books and not teaching. 

 

There is an endless list of faults that cannot be rectified by swing the club over your right shoulder using your hands. There is a good reason MDLT grabbed students in his lessons and actually showed them what that meant so they could feel it.

 

That student may have felt he was starting the club more inside than what he was used to. He wouldn't get that from the book. That's just one simple example of many I could list.

 

I wish I could have had a lesson from the man his swing was poetry.

I’m seeing your point. Too bad so many instructors never listened to Manny. 

[bladehunter]

46 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

For the overwhelming majority(always a chance of an outlier however unlikely) otherwise golf coaches would spend all their time signing books and not teaching. 

 

There is an endless list of faults that cannot be rectified by swing the club over your right shoulder using your hands. There is a good reason MDLT grabbed students in his lessons and actually showed them what that meant so they could feel it.

 

That student may have felt he was starting the club more inside than what he was used to. He wouldn't get that from the book. That's just one simple example of many I could list.

 

I wish I could have had a lesson from the man his swing was poetry.

I’m not at all anti instructor….. I have a great mentor myself.  but. I was a 0-2 handicap player before I met him.  him and some others have got me over the 0 hump.  

 Those who take responsibility for their own swing , are very much prone to being the ones who are able to self correct both in round and out.  It’s a fine line.  But good swing is no more than 75-80 % of this game. There’s more.  And it’s between the ears.  
 

Id argue that this man is the instructor. One can listen and mimic him and get absolutely 99 % of the same thing his students would get.  We all have video capability and a mirror now.    

Edited August 16, 2021 by bladehunter

[Hilts1969]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I’m not at all anti instructor….. I have a great mentor myself.  but. I was a 0-2 handicap player before I met him.  him and some others have got me over the 0 hump.  

 Those who take responsibility for their own swing , are very much prone to being the ones who are able to self correct both in round and out.  It’s a fine line.  But good swing is no more than 75-80 % of this game. There’s more.  And it’s between the ears.  
 

Id argue that this man is the instructor. One can listen and mimic him and get absolutely 99 % of the same thing his students would get.  We all have video capability and a mirror now.    

 

This is what I’m saying though a video and mirror and self correction isn’t reading the book then having a sound swing, you need knowledge from other sources. Say I read the book and checked if I was getting the club over my right shoulder using my hands. Yep doing that am I swinging the the whole club to the target using my upper arms. Yep looks that way. Why am I not hitting it very well. 

 

Could be a flat shoulder turn, a big sway, not getting on the left side. Now if Manny had hold of me and showed me the correct moves as he intends those things would probably rectify themselves with work. Otherwise I’m wondering why it’s not working.

 

 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

This is what I’m saying though a video and mirror and self correction isn’t reading the book then having a sound swing, you need knowledge from other sources. Say I read the book and checked if I was getting the club over my right shoulder using my hands. Yep doing that am I swinging the the whole club to the target using my upper arms. Yep looks that way. Why am I not hitting it very well. 

 

Could be a flat shoulder turn, a big sway, not getting on the left side. Now if Manny had hold of me and showed me the correct moves as he intends those things would probably rectify themselves with work. Otherwise I’m wondering why it’s not working.

 

 

Sure.  We’re probably saying similar things from a different perspective.    
 

I agree it takes more pieces of the puzzle than a vague video on backswing. Etc. but still am one who doesn’t have and hasn’t had an instructor looking at him weekly , or monthly and yet progress continues.  Snd im one who started as a 34 year old and am +1 now at 41.  

 

I guess I read your initial comment as just as absolutist as the one I made.  Just at the other pole.  If that’s fair ?  Majority of the truth is probably in the middle.  But I still believe to a large degree that in the end you either can or can’t hit a golfball reasonably well.  An instructor is great for polishing that.  But i don’t believe they can work miracles . Much like an ophthalmologist can correct your eyes.  If you’re sighted at all. It’s very rare they cure blindness.  And at the same time. If you only struggle with up close. You can go buy readers at the drug store yourself. And cure it.  
 

I think most decent players are like those who need readers.  They can easily get smart and figure it out.  But we don’t like to do things like that.  It’s easier to have a instructor to blame .  Its easy to do that , but it’s hard to blame yourself , and it’s hard to lie to yourself about how much work you’ve put in.  
 

anyway.  I’ll shut up.   I’ll be accused by someone ( not you ) of being anti instructor yet.  Nothing could be further from fact. I play regularly with 3 longtime teaching pros.  And i don’t begrudge them one single client.  I just know that most don’t do the work , and  hop from teacher to teacher looking for the magic pill.  The magic pill is now and always will be 1000 ‘s of balls worth of work.  
 

 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

This is what I’m saying though a video and mirror and self correction isn’t reading the book then having a sound swing, you need knowledge from other sources. Say I read the book and checked if I was getting the club over my right shoulder using my hands. Yep doing that am I swinging the the whole club to the target using my upper arms. Yep looks that way. Why am I not hitting it very well. 

 

Could be a flat shoulder turn, a big sway, not getting on the left side. Now if Manny had hold of me and showed me the correct moves as he intends those things would probably rectify themselves with work. Otherwise I’m wondering why it’s not working.

 

 

The issues you pointed out would be corrected by allowing your body to react to the swinging club.  Does it take a MDLT instructor to help with that?  I would say no.

[Bocaji]

58 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

allowing your body to react to the swinging club

Honestly this is pretty damn difficult but once you know it you feel stupid for not knowing it sooner

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

The issues you pointed out would be corrected by allowing your body to react to the swinging club.  Does it take a MDLT instructor to help with that?  I would say no.

 

We shall have to agree to disagree 

[Jersey golfer]

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

We shall have to agree to disagree 

The difficulty with this philosophy without the use of an instructor is explained by Mr. de la Torre in the swing video where he states no one can tell someone how to do something only what and that his job is to swing the club in the students hand to give them the feeling. It is very hard to learn a feeling from a book or a video.

[Bob M]

Very interesting thread! Over the past few days I started reading MDLT's book and, based on what I have read so far in the book and in this thread, find similarities to Monte's No Turn, Cast method. 

 

Am I off base here, or are they in fact complementary approaches?

[NoTalentLefty]

Anyone ever look at Arnie and Ron Frankel’s approach? Just asking

[Jersey golfer]

2 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Anyone ever look at Arnie and Ron Frankel’s approach? Just asking

Pure Ernest Jones.

[Shilgy]

17 hours ago, Jersey golfer said:

The difficulty with this philosophy without the use of an instructor is explained by Mr. de la Torre in the swing video where he states no one can tell someone how to do something only what and that his job is to swing the club in the students hand to give them the feeling. It is very hard to learn a feeling from a book or a video.

I said you do not need a MDLT instructor.  Any instructor can help with the basics.  Let him or her know your goal and they can be the set of eyes necessary to get there.  
 

Who knows? They may covert to teaching that method or at the very least have that in their teaching repertoire.

[The Pearl]

I took 3 lessons with Manny over a 3 day period, several years ago.

 

There is no secret.   He never imparted any idea or concept that was not in the book.  

 

John Hayes's book is an excellent compliment for those interested in Manny's teachings.  John, like many of Manny's disciples, spent hours watching Manny teach.

 

http://www.learninggolfwithmanuel.com/

 

As JustSteve has often reminded us, the BIGGEST roadblock to adopting Manny's method is over analyzing and adding "things".  When he teaches, he uses the same "words" that he does in the book.  EVERY word he says has a purpose.  He is very specific with language in the book and on the lesson tee. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by The Pearl

[NoTalentLefty]

On 8/18/2021 at 7:24 AM, The Pearl said:

I took 3 lessons with Manny over a 3 day period, several years ago.

 

There is no secret.   He never imparted any idea or concept that was not in the book.  

 

John Hayes's book is an excellent compliment for those interested in Manny's teachings.  John, like many of Manny's disciples, spent hours watching Manny teach.

 

http://www.learninggolfwithmanuel.com/

 

As JustSteve has often reminded us, the BIGGEST roadblock to adopting Manny's method is over analyzing and adding "things".  When he teaches, he uses the same "words" that he does in the book.  EVERY word he says has a purpose.  He is very specific with language in the book and on the lesson tee. 

Well said. Big issue for me has been keeping the  body out of the beginning of the swing and letting them just let it react to the hands going back and arms going through . When you do get it right it’s an amazing swing. 

[Bocaji]

56 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Well said. Big issue for me has been keeping the  body out of the beginning of the swing and letting them just let it react to the hands going back and arms going through . When you do get it right it’s an amazing swing. 

I can relate to this. I believe I’m beginning to discover that the more I try to create rotation, the less connected I am in my swing. Ie if all I focus on is taking my hands back, I presume I get all the rotation I need and I hit it flush.. so weird, it feels unreal but it works

[chippa13]

On 8/16/2021 at 1:20 PM, Hilts1969 said:

 

This is what I’m saying though a video and mirror and self correction isn’t reading the book then having a sound swing, you need knowledge from other sources. Say I read the book and checked if I was getting the club over my right shoulder using my hands. Yep doing that am I swinging the the whole club to the target using my upper arms. Yep looks that way. Why am I not hitting it very well. 

 

Could be a flat shoulder turn, a big sway, not getting on the left side. Now if Manny had hold of me and showed me the correct moves as he intends those things would probably rectify themselves with work. Otherwise I’m wondering why it’s not working.

 

 

Go by this simple thought, arms turn the body. Any motion that isn't the body's response to the arms swinging the club to the target is unnecessary.

Edited August 19, 2021 by chippa13

[Hilts1969]

3 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Go by this simple thought, arms turn the body. Any motion that isn't the body's response to the arms swinging the club to the target is unnecessary.

 

Force plates would disagree strongly 

[chippa13]

Is the movement the body's response to the intention of swinging the club to the target? I'm not saying only the arms move, just that the rest of the body reacts to them.

[Hilts1969]

10 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Is the movement the body's response to the intention of swinging the club to the target? I'm not saying only the arms move, just that the rest of the body reacts to them.

 

If that was the case every good instructor who ever lived would just show an arm swing and the pivot would magically be very good. 

 

Golf isn't just an arm swing or a pivot its both. Some can fail at one or the other. Most fail at both.

 

That's without mentioning wrist angles and ground forces. It's a tough game and if anything sounds too simple to be true it usually isn't.

[chippa13]

5 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

If that was the case every good instructor who ever lived would just show an arm swing and the pivot would magically be very good. 

 

Golf isn't just an arm swing or a pivot its both. Some can fail at one or the other. Most fail at both.

 

That's without mentioning wrist angles and ground forces. It's a tough game and if anything sounds too simple to be true it usually isn't.

Some people just want things to be complicated. The intention is to swing the club to the target. My only practice swing thought (when I decide I need one) is club head over back shoulder. Otherwise, the only thought is target. Why clutter the mind with "wrist here, elbow there, when do the hips open, did I leave the stove on......."

[Hilts1969]

20 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Some people just want things to be complicated. The intention is to swing the club to the target. My only practice swing thought (when I decide I need one) is club head over back shoulder. Otherwise, the only thought is target. Why clutter the mind with "wrist here, elbow there, when do the hips open, did I leave the stove on......."

 

I don’t use any of those well except the stove one obviously

[Ajgaguy83]

I've very much enjoyed this thread. For those who disagree, why not just move on? There's no point in downplaying MDLT and his teachings. Let this be an area where those who are utilizing his teachings can come and discuss.

[Jersey golfer]

17 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

I've very much enjoyed this thread. For those who disagree, why not just move on? There's no point in downplaying MDLT and his teachings. Let this be an area where those who are utilizing his teachings can come and discuss.

Well said, unfortunately this is the internet and anonymity allows bravado. Hopefully your request will be honored.

[Ajgaguy83]

I’ve got an odd question:

 

For those of you who have adopted MDLT teachings, did you find it altered the fit of your clubs (I.e. more upright, more flat, etc.)?

 

[rwc356]

35 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

I’ve got an odd question:

 

For those of you who have adopted MDLT teachings, did you find it altered the fit of your clubs (I.e. more upright, more flat, etc.)?

 

I've used the MDLT swing concepts with hickories, vintage and modern clubs - haven't noticed any need to make changes to the clubs. Don't recall MDLT making any comments about the need to adjust clubs to utilize his swing concepts in his book or videos.