Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

On the backswing, many of us struggle to differentiate between the trail arm bending and setting the wrists. We bend our trail elbows early without any/much wrist set. The club gets up (and behind us) because the trail elbow bends (and we lose width). The challenge on the backswing is to set the wrists without bending the trail elbow.

On the downswing, I wonder if it is much the same. Too many of us uncock the wrists early because we don't straighten the arm early or fast enough. We think we are straightening the arm but all we are doings oncocking the wrists. If we keep our trail elbow bent and do not uncock the wrists then we would likely miss the ball. The challenge on the downswing is to straighten the trail arm before fully uncocking the wrists. FWIW, this does not necessarily mean hold the lag. On the downswing, if the trail arm straightens at a faster rate than the wrists undock, then all will be good.

Straightening the right arm (but not necessarily making there arm completely straight) on the downswing is necessary to get the trail elbow in front of the trail hip.

Thoughts?

GeoffD,

I always at least try to listen and keep an open mind. I think this time I'm a touch lost. Am I understanding correctly you propose the trail elbow is typically bent too much and or early during the backswing and this sacrifices width and wrist setting? Then I got tripped up again when you suggest straightening the trail arm BEFORE the wrists unhinge. Would you have both arms extend before, during, or after impact? ...sorry....just trying to follow along with you here.

Thanks for giving me a second go...

Yes, for many, the trail arm bends very early in the BS, but the wrists do not. The trail elbow ends up very close the body Perhaps even glued to the body. Think of your elbow position when you start a lawn mower. Well that's what I don't want.

...and in the DS, the trail arm should straighten early to help push the lead arm off the chest...which makes the hands go faster and in front of lead leg at impact. Low point goes forward. Hello forward shaft lean.

...but if you uncock the wrists early in the DS, the club gets towards the ball, but the hands are late getting to the golf ball.

The thesis: your trail arm has to straighten faster than, and before, your wrists start uncocking.

Thanks!

I need to sit with this one for a bit.... I do NOT discount one word of what you're saying. For me personally (and I may be banished to WRX instruction hades for this...) I like maintaining the distance from the hands/handle and the sternum. I like for them to travel together as deeply as possible going back. So for ME at least there isn't a growing OR shrinking of that distance meaning the trail elbow is not (to your point) glued to the ribs.... nor is it flying away either. I do hope to land that trail elbow under the handle at the top. I also "try" getting the sternum/hands relationship to "feel" like they travel together during most of the down and through swing as well. Now where you have me head-scratching a bit is on the downswing. I personally do like for the trail elbow to pass in front of the hips as you point out. I don't "feel" like both arms FULLY extend until a little beyond impact.

You can probably imagine why I need to re-review your points... I can't argue what you're saying. Having looked at lots of the videos submitted, I would agree there is OFTEN a tendency to snatch the club up with an excessively bent trail elbow (and often a bent lead arm to boot) which would clearly sacrifice width of arc.

Question: Would you agree the trail elbow ideally should start off at address just a fraction bent and perhaps a little inside of the lead elbow as seen DTL? (for full swings)

I agree with everything you have said.

1. Elbow maintains its original distance from the body during the backswing. The magnitude of the body-elbow distance does not have to change if the arm bends or straightens.
2. The trail arm does not get completely straight until after impact.

I would also [color=#282828]agree the trail elbow at address can be just a fraction bent and perhaps a little inside of the lead elbow as seen DTL.[/color]

sooner you straighten the trailing arm the slower your clubhead will be. Look at video of the greats, I don't think your hypothesis is supported. Uncocking wrists too early is from other problems.

As a non-modern swinger, I use the right arm to throw. Like Ben Hogan, I wish I was Lord Vishnu and had two right hands.

[media=]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0AVhAlVgyg[/media]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1416137768' post='10454833']
As a non-modern swinger, I use the right arm to throw. Like Ben Hogan, I wish I was Lord Vishnu and had two right hands.

[media=]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0AVhAlVgyg[/media]
[/quote]i can't believe I watched that. Well played Sir! It was eerie how that video mimics my work day though!

[quote name='olink' timestamp='1416136170' post='10454815']
sooner you straighten the trailing arm the slower your clubhead will be.
[/quote]

Why would this be the case?...as soon as i straighten my right arm, my hand moves...and the faster I straighten my right arm, the faster/further my hands move.

From what I have seen on video DTL, the best strikers seem to maintain a degree of bend in right arm whereas the poorer ball strikers seem to have straighter right arms. Brian gay for example.

The right arm straightens but like anything it has to be well timed in relation to all the sequences occurring

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1416169376' post='10456535']
[quote name='olink' timestamp='1416136170' post='10454815']
sooner you straighten the trailing arm the slower your clubhead will be.
[/quote]

Why would this be the case?...as soon as i straighten my right arm, my hand moves...and the faster I straighten my right arm, the faster/further my hands move.
[/quote]

Yes.... but its right there where some will and some will and others may not agree 100%. You "could" move the handle, the hands, and both arms as a "unit" down from the top. This would mean the right elbow straightens -- but the question on the table becomes -- Does it straighten aggressively and with intent? or naturally? Its an interesting and deep question. It almost opens (for the millionth time) those cans of worms about all things related to swing philosophy. I thinks its a cool discussion, but then again I thought shoulder retraction was, too. LOL. So many things will never be 100% accepted by the masses. You could post that we should hold the skinny end of the club in our hands and swing the fat end at the ball... some would argue you've lost your mind. LOL.

Hi Geoff,

I would say that the early un cocking of the wrists would be more caused more by...


1) The upper body moving towards the target on the DS

or

2)The grip being too weak which causes the wrists to uncock to close the club face coming into impact

Maybe this helps the discussion?

Quote from Lag John Erickson:
"[color=#333333]This is one of O Grady’s big points,[b] straighten the right arm out quickly on the downswing[/b] as the torso rotates, as if you were dropping your hands into your right hip pocket, this keeps the hand on plane so you don’t come OTT … it is a very strange feeling, but once mastered, very powerful..[/color]

[color=#333333]The right arm straightens to about 120 degrees at the 3rd parallel [b]then stays frozen through the hitting area[/b] and all the way over to the 4rth parallel.. only from then does it try to straighten in sequence with the 5th accumulator."[/color]

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1416114349' post='10454317']
On the backswing, many of us struggle to differentiate between the trail arm bending and setting the wrists. We bend our trail elbows early without any/much wrist set. The club gets up (and behind us) because the trail elbow bends (and we lose width). The challenge on the backswing is to set the wrists without bending the trail elbow.

On the downswing, I wonder if it is much the same. Too many of us uncock the wrists early because we don't straighten the arm early or fast enough. We think we are straightening the arm but all we are doings oncocking the wrists. If we keep our trail elbow bent and do not uncock the wrists then we would likely miss the ball. The challenge on the downswing is to straighten the trail arm before fully uncocking the wrists. FWIW, this does not necessarily mean hold the lag. On the downswing, if the trail arm straightens at a faster rate than the wrists undock, then all will be good.

Straightening the right arm (but not necessarily making there arm completely straight) on the downswing is necessary to get the trail elbow in front of the trail hip.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Other factors at play. Shoulder angle and rotation play a part in how bent the trail arm can stay. Dan also talks about this in an article a few years back. I would also say the elbow bends too much in backswing when the pivot is lacking and/or late. Very common. If the pivot doesn't carry the more extended arms back, something has to get the club moving up and back.

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

Same for Elkington. Arms are slow to move away from right shoulder so right arm is too bent (90* at hip high) and the right shoulder stalls so that he can fire his right arm which results in straighter right arm at impact. Its the right arm straightening too late, too narrow and "maintaining angles" which forces the right shoulder to stall in order to unload those angles very late. The over bent right arm late also forces wrist to uncock in order to increase radius to reach the ball (over bent right arm shortens it) which is why handle is so high at impact.

Nice post Dan. I remember that article you wrote a while back about trail arm and shoulders. Excellent.

In the context of what the OP wrote regarding backswing, when rear elbow bends too much going back, would you agree a large part of the reason why is because most don't pivot correctly soon enough going back? Obviously there can be other issues, but what would you say is biggest reason?

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1416114349' post='10454317']
... Too many of us uncock the wrists early because we don't straighten the arm early or fast enough...If we keep our trail elbow bent and do not uncock the wrists then we would likely miss the ball.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Most who uncock too soon, do so precisely because they straighten the right arm too soon from the top, forcing the hands into a circle delivery path, which sends the club head backward away from the target. To the second statement, if you transport the bent elbow to the right hip with the pivot, centrifugal force will straighten the right arm, uncocking the left wrist, if you don't lock it up.

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

I thought you were TGM trained. Unless there is plane shift to one flatter than the Turned Shoulder Plane like Hogan does, any arm straightening is a power leak. Delivering the bent elbow to release point without straightening, guarantees max wrist c0ck power.

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

 

I thought you were TGM trained. Unless there is plane shift to one flatter than the Turned Shoulder Plane like Hogan does, any arm straightening is a power leak. Delivering the bent elbow to release point without straightening, guarantees max wrist c0ck power.

I am TGM trained. If you actually read what I wrote you would see exactly what I was describing. Most guys shift to a flatter plane angle coming down. The majority of the PGA tour is below the TSP especially for shots hit off the ground. I specifically brought up that guys that don't get hands away from the right shoulder early and keep right arm bent too long must uncock their wrist to make radius long enough to reach the ball and is the reason for the high handle at impact, aka TSP.

In fact it shows your lack of real world application, you're book smart without any actually experience doing practical application. This statement, "Most who uncock too soon, do so precisely because they straighten the right arm too soon from the top" shows this. Those who keep right arm bent and swing on TSP are the ones who must uncock their wrist and the club will take a wider delivery path coming down. The guys who get right arm straightening sooner by getting hands away from the right shoulder have there hands move forward sooner and at a faster rate resulting in MORE lag not less. Its the guys that shift down to lower plane angles that keep their wrist cocked longer which is the whole reason they end up on the lower plane angle. To be on the TSP at impact your left wrist will be UNCOCKED. In fact if the golfer uncocked their wrist early that means they would HAVE to be on a very upright plane angle at impact and do so with a bent right arm coming down.

Dan - so to fully dump #2 you have to be on TSP?

Is that the basis for saying EP is a less powerful... b/c the accumulator is not fully released?

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1416238443' post='10460347']
Dan - so to fully dump #2 you have to be on TSP?

Is that the basis for saying EP is a less powerful... b/c the accumulator is not fully released?
[/quote]

To go all the way from cocked to uncocked yes. TSP allows for bigger range of motion and larger release of PA2 but on the TSP you are zeroing out PA3 as there is no travel when wrist are uncocked. On elbow plane wrist go from cocked to level so less PA2 but you can use PA3. It's a give and take. If you max out one you can't use the other. Someone in between where you use a little of both (elbow plane or a touch higher with longer clubs) is a good middle ground. TSP will produce shallower AOAs which could benefit you with a driver.

Question for u dan if you were to "feel" this in a slow motion swing from the top would you feel the right arm try to straighten immediately from the top or after the initial lower body move?
To me if feels like hip rotation to get arms and club down in front then extention. Just wanted your view

Setup with a golf club so our step of left foot is against a wall. Make a backswing. From there drive the butt of the club forward and into the wall. Do you have a lot of lag? Are your wrist still cocked? Did hands move away from the shoulder and did right arm straighten?

Arms should move away from the rear shoulder, down and forward. This will extend the rear arm and despite what other say it won't cause you to uncock your wrist

[b]Hitting vs swinging[/b]

Before this thread devolves into a complete mish-mash of advice, people should realize that the motion the OP is describing is what is commonly called a "hitting" golf swing.

[quote name='Lime Shark' timestamp='1416240210' post='10460529']
[b]Hitting vs swinging[/b]

Before this thread devolves into a complete mish-mash of advice, people should realize that the motion the OP is describing is what is commonly called a "hitting" golf swing.
[/quote]

There is no mish mash. Hitting and swinging are feels not reality. There is constant pushing and pulling throughout the golf swing. What the OP is describing is exactly what Sergio and Hogan do and most TGM guys would call them the posterboys for swinging. In reality everyone does both in all full swings. Same bs goes for the level right wrist. Right wrist is cocked in all good swings.

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

 

I thought you were TGM trained. Unless there is plane shift to one flatter than the Turned Shoulder Plane like Hogan does, any arm straightening is a power leak. Delivering the bent elbow to release point without straightening, guarantees max wrist c0ck power.

 

I am TGM trained. If you actually read what I wrote you would see exactly what I was describing. Most guys shift to a flatter plane angle coming down. The majority of the PGA tour is below the TSP especially for shots hit off the ground. I specifically brought up that guys that don't get hands away from the right shoulder early and keep right arm bent too long must uncock their wrist to make radius long enough to reach the ball and is the reason for the high handle at impact, aka TSP.

 

In fact it shows your lack of real world application, you're book smart without any actually experience doing practical application. This statement, "Most who uncock too soon, do so precisely because they straighten the right arm too soon from the top" shows this. Those who keep right arm bent and swing on TSP are the ones who must uncock their wrist and the club will take a wider delivery path coming down. The guys who get right arm straightening sooner by getting hands away from the right shoulder have there hands move forward sooner and at a faster rate resulting in MORE lag not less. Its the guys that shift down to lower plane angles that keep their wrist cocked longer which is the whole reason they end up on the lower plane angle. To be on the TSP at impact your left wrist will be UNCOCKED. In fact if the golfer uncocked their wrist early that means they would HAVE to be on a very upright plane angle at impact and do so with a bent right arm coming down.

 

This whole response is painfully incorrect, just like your misunderstanding of hinge action, which Alex C corrected. I have no practical application experience??? And you know this how??? Apparently by this litany of one incorrect statement after another about hand paths and swing planes. Here's the problem, you don't seem to understand that in TGM, only the left wrist cocks, and only by bending the right arm, so the left wrist uncocks in direct proportion to the right arm straightening. This is true because the right wrist is bent and level. And then you make the statement that to be on the TSP, your left wrist will be UNCOCKED at impact, when in TGM, ALL proper swings are executed with the left wrist ALMOST uncocked, but not totally. There must be uncocking throughout the impact interval, with total uncocking ONLY after the ball leaves the face, no matter the swing plane. Impact wrist conditions are totally independent of swing plane.

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416240586' post='10460595']
[quote name='Lime Shark' timestamp='1416240210' post='10460529']
[b]Hitting vs swinging[/b]

Before this thread devolves into a complete mish-mash of advice, people should realize that the motion the OP is describing is what is commonly called a "hitting" golf swing.
[/quote]

There is no mish mash. Hitting and swinging are feels not reality. There is constant pushing and pulling throughout the golf swing. What the OP is describing is exactly what Sergio and Hogan do and most TGM guys would call them the posterboys for swinging. In reality everyone does both in all full swings. Same bs goes for the level right wrist. Right wrist is cocked in all good swings.

Now I understand - you have completely rewritten TGM.
[/quote]

I understand. What exactly am I wrong about when it comes to hinge actions. The right wrist is cocked in all swings. It's not level. I live in the real world and not lala land. Go ask Ted Fort how much his right wrist cocked when is was on 3D. Again I know exactly what TGM says. It's just not all correct. Please show me a tour level swing with a level right wrist at the top of the back swing. One that has zero wrist c0ck in it.

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416241651' post='10460673']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416240586' post='10460595']
[quote name='Lime Shark' timestamp='1416240210' post='10460529']
[b]Hitting vs swinging[/b]

Before this thread devolves into a complete mish-mash of advice, people should realize that the motion the OP is describing is what is commonly called a "hitting" golf swing.
[/quote]

There is no mish mash. Hitting and swinging are feels not reality. There is constant pushing and pulling throughout the golf swing. What the OP is describing is exactly what Sergio and Hogan do and most TGM guys would call them the posterboys for swinging. In reality everyone does both in all full swings. Same bs goes for the level right wrist. Right wrist is cocked in all good swings.

Now I understand - you have completely rewritten TGM.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Again I haven't rewritten anything. The book is simply wrong in some instances. Doesn't mean you burn the whole thing. Homer himself said you can only identify the player by asking him and that it's impossible to tell by looking. Which is a round about way to say exactly what I said. It's a feel. In reality both are happening at the same time. Again I don't live in lala land