side saddle putters - what putter are you using?

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Comments

  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,383 ✭✭
    Rohlio wrote:


    Wow, I just found this thread... Feels like an AA meeting...





    "I'm Rohlio. I have been sidesaddling for 5 years now."



    I use a 47" directed Force Reno 2 putter at 80* lie angle. Top hand one inch in front of my chest... bottom hand pencil grip.



    I switched mid round in a tournament with a conventional putter. I had hit all 9 greens on the front and was 4 over par

    I had just had it. I was so sick of missing 3 and 4 footers it made me sick. I switched on the back 9 with a conventional putter and no idea what I wad doing and was -2 on the back. I never looked back.



    I am now absolute money from about 8'. If I miss it was simply a poor read. Wish I would have found this sooner.



    Cheers to all you fellow liberated minds!




    Great post; thanks!



    You sound like you were where a buddy of mine was when he started side saddle. He had played golf all his life, including playing college golf, and was still hitting the ball Tour distances well into his 50's. But his putting had become a train wreck; one round looking at the hole, one round with the long putter, one round with the claw, and so on. The last round before he switched to side saddle, it was so bad that you absolutely couldn't watch for fear that it would bleed into your own stroke; I think he shot 85 or so with well over 40 putts. For him, it was either try side saddle or quit the game, literally. He practiced twice, and the first round he played shot 76; it was amazing, and he didn't even really know what he was doing at that point.



    And that pushed me off the end of the high dive, too. I had been on the fence for awhile, just to see if I could make more putts. I wasn't a bad putter at all conventionally, but I was over 60 and KNEW I wasn't going to hit it farther, which meant I wasn't going to hit it closer, either, plus I was sure that my peripheral vision was declining gradually as well. I'd read the Dave Pelz story about testing the old guy at one of his schools, I'd read a Johnny Miller piece about it, read "Seven Days in Utopia" and watched videos about side saddle, but just had never made the leap. But it REALLY appealed to me in part because I'd been a HS basketball coach and it looked EXACTLY like shooting a free throw with the plane flipped.



    And now here I am nearly four years later at an AA meeting, putting better than I've ever putted in my life. Part of me wishes I'd done it earlier, but part of me knows that there is a readiness for learning that wasn't there, plus there is excitement in the feeling of improvement.



    And here I am
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    What in the new rules makes you think you can't continue to putt SS the way you do?
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭
    Watching them in Hawaii got me looking at clubs again. I did notice Bobby Grace changed the finish on the F22 to a black with lime green accents. Not sure if I need a back up yet or not....
    G400 8.5* - G400 14.5* - Baffler 19.5* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Gorge Stealth 56* (@55*), 60* - BG F22
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,383 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    *** The following was taken directly from the new rulebook...



    The Equipment Rules - Effective January 1, 2019



    Part 2 – Conformance of Clubs



    1.) CLUBS



    d. Alignment

    - When the club is in its normal address position the shaft must be

    so aligned that:



    The projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane

    through the toe and heel must diverge from the vertical by at least 10

    degrees. If the overall design of the club is such that the player

    can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the

    shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical in this plane by as much

    as 25 degrees;



    - For most putters, the “normal address position” is determined by the

    geometry of the head. The head would be placed on a horizontal flat

    surface, with the sole touching that surface at a point directly below the

    center of the face. The shaft angle would then be measured with the head

    in this position.



    - This provision is particularly relevant to putters and it exists mainly

    as a means for disallowing croquet style putters (with vertical shafts).

    It also seeks to limit the potential for more standard putters from being used

    effectively in a vertical or near-vertical position using a pendulum-style motion.



    - If the putter head shape or weight distribution is very asymmetric, it may

    be necessary to make a subjective judgment as to where the effective

    center of the face is and then to sole the club directly below that point.

    The position of the head in this instance might not always be the position

    that was intended when the club was designed, but in some cases a

    judgment has to be made based on how the club could feasibly and

    effectively be used.



    - The same subjectivity may also be needed when confronted with a putter

    which has a very curved sole. As before, the conformance

    evaluation would take into account not only the manner in which the putter

    is designed to be used, but also the way it could feasibly and effectively be

    used, given the geometry of the head as well as other unique characteristics

    of the overall design. This interpretation is particularly relevant to long-shafted putters with very curved or multi-planed soles.



    It should be noted that all putters can usually be positioned in such a way

    that the shaft diverges from the vertical by less than 10° or even to a

    position where the shaft itself is vertical. Also, it is unusual for the sole of

    a putter to be completely flat all the way from heel to toe. When faced

    with a ruling of this kind, the decision should not be based on whether

    a player uses the putter with the shaft in a position less than 10° –

    but whether the putter design facilitates this.



    * If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively

    with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled

    contrary to Part 2, Section 1d (Alignment), even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”.



    The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as

    much as 25 degrees.





    *** Am I reading / interpreting this incorrectly? - It all seems pretty clear to me!
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,324 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:


    *** The following was taken directly from the new rulebook...



    The Equipment Rules - Effective January 1, 2019



    Part 2 – Conformance of Clubs



    1.) CLUBS



    d. Alignment

    - When the club is in its normal address position the shaft must be

    so aligned that:



    The projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane

    through the toe and heel must diverge from the vertical by at least 10

    degrees. If the overall design of the club is such that the player

    can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the

    shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical in this plane by as much

    as 25 degrees;



    - For most putters, the “normal address position” is determined by the

    geometry of the head. The head would be placed on a horizontal flat

    surface, with the sole touching that surface at a point directly below the

    center of the face. The shaft angle would then be measured with the head

    in this position.



    - This provision is particularly relevant to putters and it exists mainly

    as a means for disallowing croquet style putters (with vertical shafts).

    It also seeks to limit the potential for more standard putters from being used

    effectively in a vertical or near-vertical position using a pendulum-style motion.



    - If the putter head shape or weight distribution is very asymmetric, it may

    be necessary to make a subjective judgment as to where the effective

    center of the face is and then to sole the club directly below that point.

    The position of the head in this instance might not always be the position

    that was intended when the club was designed, but in some cases a

    judgment has to be made based on how the club could feasibly and

    effectively be used.



    - The same subjectivity may also be needed when confronted with a putter

    which has a very curved sole. As before, the conformance

    evaluation would take into account not only the manner in which the putter

    is designed to be used, but also the way it could feasibly and effectively be

    used, given the geometry of the head as well as other unique characteristics

    of the overall design. This interpretation is particularly relevant to long-shafted putters with very curved or multi-planed soles.



    It should be noted that all putters can usually be positioned in such a way

    that the shaft diverges from the vertical by less than 10° or even to a

    position where the shaft itself is vertical. Also, it is unusual for the sole of

    a putter to be completely flat all the way from heel to toe. When faced

    with a ruling of this kind, the decision should not be based on whether

    a player uses the putter with the shaft in a position less than 10° –

    but whether the putter design facilitates this.



    * If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively

    with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled

    contrary to Part 2, Section 1d (Alignment), even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”.



    The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as

    much as 25 degrees.





    *** Am I reading / interpreting this incorrectly? - It all seems pretty clear to me!




    They are trying to take away the ability for a manufacturer to create a putter head that has a normal lie angle but actually has a curve or a change of direction in the head or neck that would allow for the type of putting Bryson was trying to do a few years ago...if your putter looks like a normal putter and you are sidesaddling with it then you should have no issue. If the head looks like and L shape or something like that which is clearly intended to circumvent the max 80* lie angle rule it would be deemed non conforming.
    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 484 ✭✭
    I believe this is unchanged from previous rule which said basically the same thing, that a putter couldn't be designed so that it could be held vertically even if it had an 80* lie angle. As bluedot stated above, if your putter was conforming before, there should be no issue now.
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:


    I believe this is unchanged from previous rule which said basically the same thing, that a putter couldn't be designed so that it could be held vertically even if it had an 80* lie angle. As bluedot stated above, if your putter was conforming before, there should be no issue now.




    I agree with this too.
  • br61br61 3x Hackin' Hall of Shame SW MissouriMembers Posts: 2,624 ✭✭
    J-Tizzle wrote:


    Watching them in Hawaii got me looking at clubs again. I did notice Bobby Grace changed the finish on the F22 to a black with lime green accents. Not sure if I need a back up yet or not....




    Buy it so I might be able to buy it off you as another one of your back up putters like I did. Hehe.
    My bag of hacking utensils;

    Titleist TS3 9.5 PX Even Flow White 6.0(45")
    917F2 16.5* Diamana D+ 80 stiff
    816H1 19 & 23 Speeder 8.8 stiff
    Z585 5-AW Modus 105 stiff
    TM MG Bronze, 56* & 60*
    Bobby Grace LFI 43"


  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”. The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".



    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,324 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”. The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".







    What does your putter look like?
    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    Rohlio wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its "normal address position". The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".







    What does your putter look like?




    Similiar to Fig. 10 (above), but center-shafted. - How about you?
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,324 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its "normal address position". The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".







    What does your putter look like?




    Similiar to Fig. 10 (above), but center-shafted. - How about you?




    I use a Directed Force Reno 2.1 at 80*



    I will be interested in their response to you, but I believe you won't have a problem, considering that style of putter (toe and heel relief, center shaft) has been used for a long time and wasn't created specifically to allow you to circumvent the lie angle rule.
    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    Curious... what is your height and what length is your DF? - Do you know your putter's headweight and the overall weight?
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,324 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:


    Curious... what is your height and what length is your DF? - Do you know your putter's headweight and the overall weight?




    47" length I am 5'10"



    I actually don't know the headweight.
    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭
    Boy, Figure 10 looks very much like the F22...
    G400 8.5* - G400 14.5* - Baffler 19.5* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Gorge Stealth 56* (@55*), 60* - BG F22
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,383 ✭✭
    I'll be curious to read more about this, but it doesn't seem like a change to me.



    But I'll add this: I have yet to be convinced that holding the putter in a way that the SHAFT is vertical is an advantage anyway. I want my ARM to be hang naturally, and be able to go straight back and straight thru; the angle of the shaft, whether vertical, 10*, or somewhere in between, doesn't change IF my arm swings back and thru naturally. All that changes when the shaft is at 10* off vertical is how the shaft lies across my hand. So if my top hand is fixed and my bottom hand goes straight back and straight thru, the shaft angle doesn't really matter; there's no rotation in the swing. My ARM swings the shaft, not the other way around, and a shaft that 10* off vertical can move straight back and straight thru with no problem whatsoever.



    I learned to putt face on/side saddle with a JuanPutt and the putting trac that he provides with the purchase of a putter. If you sole that putter with the shaft at the 10* angle, the putter comes back and thru without touching the sides of the putting trac at all. The main function of the putting trac, of course, is to reinforce the feeling of "straight back, straight thru", but it does NOT matter one bit that the putter shaft is 10* off vertical.



    Just food for thought.
  • HulknohappyHulknohappy Members Posts: 6 ✭✭
    I think that if you are putting with the shaft vertical then you are breaking the rules and if you were a top player your putter would quickly get banned . It’s fairly clear that the shaft angle is in there for a reason. That reason is to stop you putting with a vertical shaft.

    If you are circumventing that by manipulating the head to make the shaft vertical then it is against the spirit of what the rules are trying to achieve.

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 6:36am #561


    I think that if you are putting with the shaft vertical then you are breaking the rules and if you were a top player your putter would quickly get banned . It's fairly clear that the shaft angle is in there for a reason. That reason is to stop you putting with a vertical shaft.

    If you are circumventing that by manipulating the head to make the shaft vertical then it is against the spirit of what the rules are trying to achieve.




    Does that mean when I toe my 9 iron and hold it in a very vertical position in order to do a "chip-putt" from the fringe of the green - that I'm going against the spirit of golf rules?



    I don't think so......
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 6:44am #562
    bluedot wrote:


    I'll be curious to read more about this, but it doesn't seem like a change to me.



    But I'll add this: I have yet to be convinced that holding the putter in a way that the SHAFT is vertical is an advantage anyway. I want my ARM to be hang naturally, and be able to go straight back and straight thru; the angle of the shaft, whether vertical, 10*, or somewhere in between, doesn't change IF my arm swings back and thru naturally. All that changes when the shaft is at 10* off vertical is how the shaft lies across my hand. So if my top hand is fixed and my bottom hand goes straight back and straight thru, the shaft angle doesn't really matter; there's no rotation in the swing. My ARM swings the shaft, not the other way around, and a shaft that 10* off vertical can move straight back and straight thru with no problem whatsoever.



    I learned to putt face on/side saddle with a JuanPutt and the putting trac that he provides with the purchase of a putter. If you sole that putter with the shaft at the 10* angle, the putter comes back and thru without touching the sides of the putting trac at all. The main function of the putting trac, of course, is to reinforce the feeling of "straight back, straight thru", but it does NOT matter one bit that the putter shaft is 10* off vertical.



    Just food for thought.




    All true. I too, hold my putter "soled". I find it to be much more stable through the stroke. It might get slightly more vertical for the really short putts.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,383 ✭✭


    I think that if you are putting with the shaft vertical then you are breaking the rules and if you were a top player your putter would quickly get banned . It's fairly clear that the shaft angle is in there for a reason. That reason is to stop you putting with a vertical shaft.

    If you are circumventing that by manipulating the head to make the shaft vertical then it is against the spirit of what the rules are trying to achieve.




    I understand what you are saying, and you are correct that the Rules are written with the intent of preventing a club from functioning just as well with the shaft in a vertical position as with the shaft at an angle of 10* or more.



    You are mistaken, however, about the putter being banned if the player used it in a vertical position; that would depend on the DESIGN of the putter, not simply the fact that the putter was being USED in a particular way. All of the side saddle putters I've used COULD be held vertically, just like ANY club COULD be held vertically, but (with one exception) none of them worked nearly as well in a vertical position with the heel off the ground as they do in a soled position.



    If I choose to use a putter in a way that compromises the effectiveness of the putter so that I can hold it vertically, that's not illegal, and I don't think it even violates the "spirit" of what the Rules are trying to achieve. The rules about this apply to ALL clubs; there is just special attention paid to putters because that's the most likely club and stroke that would become vertical. But putters are no different than any other club in that, with conforming design, the effectiveness of the putter is compromised if the putter is used with the shaft in a vertical position. If my swing is impeded by a tree and I hold my 9 iron in a vertical position because it's the only way I can advance the ball, that doesn't violate the spirit of the Rules because the club clearly doesn't work as well that way. Same with conforming putters, including side saddle.
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    bluedot wrote:


    I'll be curious to read more about this, but it doesn't seem like a change to me.



    But I'll add this: I have yet to be convinced that holding the putter in a way that the SHAFT is vertical is an advantage anyway. I want my ARM to hang naturally, and be able to go straight back and straight thru; the angle of the shaft, whether vertical, 10*, or somewhere in between, doesn't change IF my arm swings back and thru naturally. All that changes when the shaft is at 10* off vertical is how the shaft lies across my hand. So if my top hand is fixed and my bottom hand goes straight back and straight thru, the shaft angle doesn't really matter; there's no rotation in the swing. My ARM swings the shaft, not the other way around, and a shaft that 10* off vertical can move straight back and straight thru with no problem whatsoever.



    I learned to putt face on/side saddle with a JuanPutt and the putting trac that he provides with the purchase of a putter. If you sole that putter with the shaft at the 10* angle, the putter comes back and thru without touching the sides of the putting trac at all. The main function of the putting trac, of course, is to reinforce the feeling of "straight back, straight thru", but it does NOT matter one bit that the putter shaft is 10* off vertical.



    Just food for thought.




    Sorry, but if the upper hand (fulcrum/pivot point) remains fixed/stationary during the stroke and the shaft-angle is NOT vertical, the clubhead MUST move in an arc. Indisputable!
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,383 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    I'll be curious to read more about this, but it doesn't seem like a change to me.



    But I'll add this: I have yet to be convinced that holding the putter in a way that the SHAFT is vertical is an advantage anyway. I want my ARM to hang naturally, and be able to go straight back and straight thru; the angle of the shaft, whether vertical, 10*, or somewhere in between, doesn't change IF my arm swings back and thru naturally. All that changes when the shaft is at 10* off vertical is how the shaft lies across my hand. So if my top hand is fixed and my bottom hand goes straight back and straight thru, the shaft angle doesn't really matter; there's no rotation in the swing. My ARM swings the shaft, not the other way around, and a shaft that 10* off vertical can move straight back and straight thru with no problem whatsoever.



    I learned to putt face on/side saddle with a JuanPutt and the putting trac that he provides with the purchase of a putter. If you sole that putter with the shaft at the 10* angle, the putter comes back and thru without touching the sides of the putting trac at all. The main function of the putting trac, of course, is to reinforce the feeling of "straight back, straight thru", but it does NOT matter one bit that the putter shaft is 10* off vertical.



    Just food for thought.




    Sorry, but if the upper hand (fulcrum/pivot point) remains fixed/stationary during the stroke and the shaft-angle is NOT vertical, the clubhead MUST move in an arc. Indisputable!




    Joe, I'm not completely comfortable saying this to someone who has been putting face on for a LOT longer than I, but you are mistaken. And you can prove it to yourself very easily if you have hardwood floors or a couple of 1x2's or anything else you can figure out to use.



    If you face the hole and your right arm swings naturally from the shoulder there is effectively no arc to that swing. If you swing a putter face on along the space between two boards in a hardwood floor, you'll see this quite easily. And the top hand being a fulcrum is critical to this; it's when you try to keep two hands coordinated together during a swing while standing parallel to the line of play that you create an arc. One hand can swing straight back and straight thru with no problem whatsoever. Which is EXACTLY what Juan Elizondo's putting trac shows you when you use it; if there was an arc to the swing, you would hit the trac coming back, and hit it again coming thru; you hit it in neither direction. I promise...



    Think of shooting a free throw in basketball; in which the "off hand" serves as a fixed fulcrum of sorts, just to steady the ball. The shooting hand does NOT move in an arc; if it does, the ball isn't going in. The 10* angle of the shaft on a golf club doesn't change this one bit; it's still the arm that's swinging the clubhead straight back and straight thru.
  • broomstickerbroomsticker Members Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Not exactly blue. Duff is right. Anything other than a perpendicular shaft is going to create an arch unless you manipulate by pulling shaft outside the line, to square, to outside. It is just too small for you to observe it. Imagine if you set the putter at 90 degrees instead of 10 and now imagine the club head path. Either way, we are all overthinking it. Point and shoot and collect cash!
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,383 ✭✭


    Not exactly blue. Duff is right. Anything other than a perpendicular shaft is going to create an arch unless you manipulate by pulling shaft outside the line, to square, to outside. It is just too small for you to observe it. Imagine if you set the putter at 90 degrees instead of 10 and now imagine the club head path. Either way, we are all overthinking it. Point and shoot and collect cash!




    I agree with you that IF a putting stroke was much, MUCH longer than it actually is, that an arc would develop. But I can swing my arm a LONG way behind me and a LONG way in front of me without an arc at all, far longer than ANY putting stroke would EVER be. Put a flashlight in your hand, swing your arm, and watch the floor. All the shaft angle does is change where the putter shaft crosses my hand; it doesn't do anything to the "shape" of the stroke because it doesn't do anything to the swing of my arm.



    I'll refer you again to the putting trac that comes with the JuanPutt.

    https://www.juanputt.com/perfect-practice.html



    I promise you that soled flat and with a 10* shaft angle, the edges of the putter never touch the sides of the track, and the track is built to the width of the putter, and you can hit the ball a mile with the size stroke the trac allows you to make.
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 484 ✭✭
    Agree that you are overthinking, and probably all of the above opinions are correct to a degree. While there may technically be an arc as a result of the shaft angle, that arc is miniscule and inconsequential, probably mm rather than inches. Which is why you can clearly go SBST with the putting trac.
  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members Posts: 347 ✭✭


    Boy, Figure 10 looks very much like the F22...


    I was thinking the same thing
    "Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 11:36pm #570
    Ripper212 wrote:


    Agree that you are overthinking, and probably all of the above opinions are correct to a degree. While there may technically be an arc as a result of the shaft angle, that arc is minuscule and inconsequential, probably mm rather than inches. Which is why you can clearly go SBST with the Putting Trac.




    I'm curious... how far can you actually go (in inches) back and through with that device? Can you make a stroke equal to a 30'-40' putt?



    BTW, millimeters matter in putting!
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:


    Agree that you are overthinking, and probably all of the above opinions are correct to a degree. While there may technically be an arc as a result of the shaft angle, that arc is minuscule and inconsequential, probably mm rather than inches. Which is why you can clearly go SBST with the Putting Trac.




    I'm curious... how far can you actually go (in inches) back and through with that device? Can you make a stroke equal to a 30'-40' putt?



    BTW, millimeters matter in putting!




    Actually…..pretty darn far......



    https://www.juanputt.com/perfect-practice.html
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