side saddle putters - what putter are you using?

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  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members Posts: 348 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”. The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".







    There definitely needs to be some clarification. Here is my interpretation of this in my case...

    My putter (BG F22) has an 80* lie angle in it's "normal address position", and has a tri-sole design. This means that if the heel of the club is any higher than the toe when I use it, then I'm breaking the rules, since I'm effectively using it in a "near vertical position". Correct me if I'm wrong.
    "Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    edited Apr 5, 2019 3:49am #573
    Well... it kinda reads that way, doesn't it? - However, it may have more to do with if the sole design helps in facilitating the vertical shaft at address....
    Post edited by Joe Duffer on
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 487 ✭✭

    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”. The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".







    There definitely needs to be some clarification. Here is my interpretation of this in my case...

    My putter (BG F22) has an 80* lie angle in it's "normal address position", and has a tri-sole design. This means that if the heel of the club is any higher than the toe when I use it, then I'm breaking the rules, since I'm effectively using it in a "near vertical position". Correct me if I'm wrong.




    My understanding is that you are NOT breaking the rules as long as your putter has been judged conforming by the USGA. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits you from using any club in the vertical position, just that the club cannot be designed to use that way in which case it would be non-conforming. When will the USGA start using comprehensible and common sense rules?
  • Joe DufferJoe Duffer Members Posts: 725 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:


    Agree that you are overthinking, and probably all of the above opinions are correct to a degree. While there may technically be an arc as a result of the shaft angle, that arc is minuscule and inconsequential, probably mm rather than inches. Which is why you can clearly go SBST with the Putting Trac.




    I'm curious... how far can you actually go (in inches) back and through with that device? Can you make a stroke equal to a 30'-40' putt?



    BTW, millimeters matter in putting!




    Actually…..pretty darn far......



    https://www.juanputt...t-practice.html




    Juan told me the Putter Trac was designed and helpful only for 10'-15' putts on average speed greens.
    "Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do" - John Wooden
  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members Posts: 348 ✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:


    Joe Duffer wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:


    I have been side-saddle putting with an old 48" tri-soled long putter for well over 30 years. I'll be 73 in April. The putter's lie-angle plays at around 14° if soled traditionally. However, I set up with the shaft suspended vertically. This does allow the heel to raise and to somewhat compromise "sweetspot" availability during impact, but not so much that I would change.



    Presently, my biggest concern is whether I will be allowed to continue to putt in this fashion. - The present (Jan 1, 2019) USGA Rules lead me to believe I may be Non-Conforming!



    I still enjoy competition, but I'm too old to change now... but I also still play in USGA sanctioned events.




    I don't think there is anything in the 2019 Rules changes that would impact what we do. If your putter was conforming before Jan. 1, it still is.




    Thanks for the reply, but after reviewing the current USGA rules, I'm not at all positive my putter and technique (vertical shaft), are NOW conforming.



    I contacted Randy Haag today and he's concerned as well... he was not aware of the wording changes and sent off a letter today asking the USGA for clarification.



    With this wording and images in place...



    "If the overall design of a putter is such that a player can putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position, it would be ruled contrary to Part 2, Section 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10 degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position”. The shaft angle on such a putter would be required to be increased up to as much as 25 degrees".







    There definitely needs to be some clarification. Here is my interpretation of this in my case...

    My putter (BG F22) has an 80* lie angle in it's "normal address position", and has a tri-sole design. This means that if the heel of the club is any higher than the toe when I use it, then I'm breaking the rules, since I'm effectively using it in a "near vertical position". Correct me if I'm wrong.




    My understanding is that you are NOT breaking the rules as long as your putter has been judged conforming by the USGA. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits you from using any club in the vertical position, just that the club cannot be designed to use that way in which case it would be non-conforming. When will the USGA start using comprehensible and common sense rules?




    This is where I still get hung up on the interpretation



    "The same subjectivity may also be needed when confronted with a putter which has a very curved sole (see Figure 10). As before, the conformance evaluation would take into account not only the manner in which the putter is designed to be used, but also the way it could feasibly and effectively be used, given the geometry of the head as well as other unique characteristics of the overall design. This interpretation is particularly relevant to longshafted putters with very curved or multi-planed soles – but standard length putters of 34-38 inches can also be subjected to this assessment."
    "Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 487 ✭✭
    As the second sentence states this is taken into account during the conformance evaluation. If the putter can be used effectively when held vertical, they could rule it non-conforming. If your putter is approved, you could use it any way you like, except straddling the line
  • The CougThe Coug Members Posts: 214
    Anyone tried Cure putters for side saddle?



    Positives are the adjustable weight and lie (up to 80 degrees) and that they are actually able to be used right or left handed for those of us who are left handed but have traditionally played and putted righty.



    Cons that I can see are that they are realllly wide, which basically eliminates the possibility of manipulating to true vertical during the stroke.
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    Joe Duffer wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:

    Joe Duffer wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:


    Agree that you are overthinking, and probably all of the above opinions are correct to a degree. While there may technically be an arc as a result of the shaft angle, that arc is minuscule and inconsequential, probably mm rather than inches. Which is why you can clearly go SBST with the Putting Trac.




    I'm curious... how far can you actually go (in inches) back and through with that device? Can you make a stroke equal to a 30'-40' putt?



    BTW, millimeters matter in putting!




    Actually…..pretty darn far......



    https://www.juanputt...t-practice.html




    Juan told me the Putter Trac was designed and helpful only for 10'-15' putts on average speed greens.




    Agree...kind of....



    I provided the link (pictures) to answer your first question, "How far can you go back and through with that device"



    And I find my putts can go a bit further than what Juan suggested since I have a bit a "pop" to my putting stroke.



    At 30-40' what does it matter anyways? At that point your probably not making the putt and are really just looking for a good lag.....
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    edited Jan 11, 2019 5:16am #580
    gocougs666 wrote:


    Anyone tried Cure putters for side saddle?



    Positives are the adjustable weight and lie (up to 80 degrees) and that they are actually able to be used right or left handed for those of us who are left handed but have traditionally played and putted righty.



    Cons that I can see are that they are realllly wide, which basically eliminates the possibility of manipulating to true vertical during the stroke.




    Yes. I tried one.

    - I didn't like the really wide sole that as you said didn't allow any manipulation to any kind of more vertical during the stroke.

    - I didn't like the "ping" sound or the feel at contact.

    - For whatever reason (and I'm not sure why) - I didn't like how the putter set up for me. I just couldn't get comfortable with it.

    I ended up selling mine on ebay.
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:


    As the second sentence states this is taken into account during the conformance evaluation. If the putter can be used effectively when held vertical, they could rule it non-conforming. If your putter is approved, you could use it any way you like, except straddling the line




    And you could straddle the line if on the fringe!
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 487 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:


    As the second sentence states this is taken into account during the conformance evaluation. If the putter can be used effectively when held vertical, they could rule it non-conforming. If your putter is approved, you could use it any way you like, except straddling the line




    And you could straddle the line if on the fringe!




    Yup. And you can correct your playing partners when they say that's illegal! Haven't had great success with that FWIW. Usually go conventional/armlock style for long putts, esp off the green - easy to do that with the LFI.
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    gocougs666 wrote:


    Anyone tried Cure putters for side saddle?



    Positives are the adjustable weight and lie (up to 80 degrees) and that they are actually able to be used right or left handed for those of us who are left handed but have traditionally played and putted righty.



    Cons that I can see are that they are realllly wide, which basically eliminates the possibility of manipulating to true vertical during the stroke.




    Yes. I tried one.

    - I didn't like the really wide sole that as you said didn't allow any manipulation to any kind of more vertical during the stroke.

    - I didn't like the "ping" sound or the feel at contact.

    - For whatever reason (and I'm not sure why) - I didn't like how the putter set up for me. I just couldn't get comfortable with it.

    I ended up selling mine on ebay.




    Yep, I tried a RX3 when I first wanted to try out side saddling. I had one that I was using normal, got the straight shaft and extended it out to 45" and played one round with it, liked the approach, then bought a legit side saddle putter (one that I could hold more vertical). If you're not interested in holding it straight up and down (keeping the sole of the putter flat), its an option for sure.
    G400 8.5* - G400 14.5* - Baffler 19.5* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Gorge Stealth 56* (@55*), 60* - BG F22
  • The CougThe Coug Members Posts: 214
    Finally got time to take the Cure RX1 out. J-tizzle and BigEx nailed it with their descriptions. Impossible to manipulate beyond 80 degrees. Sound was something only a mother could love. But man is it stable. I could feel myself pulling and pushing putts only to see them only move left edge or right edge.



    Check out the video. This was only at 6’ and change with the assistance of alignment markers, but from what I heard it is best to get muscle memory with short straight putts first. The few that I tried from distance were pretty rough. Didn’t have time to practice any swinging putts either.



    Any critiques from side saddle veterans is greatly appreciated.



  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    edited Jan 21, 2019 7:00am #585
    The Coug wrote:


    Finally got time to take the Cure RX1 out. J-tizzle and BigEx nailed it with their descriptions. Impossible to manipulate beyond 80 degrees. Sound was something only a mother could love. But man is it stable. I could feel myself pulling and pushing putts only to see them only move left edge or right edge.



    Check out the video. This was only at 6’ and change with the assistance of alignment markers, but from what I heard it is best to get muscle memory with short straight putts first. The few that I tried from distance were pretty rough. Didn’t have time to practice any swinging putts either.



    Any critiques from side saddle veterans is greatly appreciated.



    https://youtu.be/UXTfSgQjLkI




    Nice stroke.



    That's a perfect distance to work from. On the Truline putting mat I have in my cellar - I work on 4 footers all day long. I won't leave until I make 30 in a row. It'll take the pressure off your lag putting when you have a 4 foot diameter circle your aiming for.



    My only suggestion (and it's a suggestion, not a critique, since you were stroking the ball very nicely) is to explore setting up with a little more knee bend. This also might give you just a touch more forward bend. I couldn't see your upper body, but it looks like you were standing straight up during your stroke? In other words, what would your setup look like if someone asked you to roll 20 balls to the hole with your hands? How much knee bend would you use? The only reason I suggest this is for more stability. Not as big an issue for 6 footers. But standing straight up like you do might not give you the stability you need for longer lag putts.



    Even Pierre Dione the GP putter guy in this video (who stands very erect) - has just a bit of knee and forward bend. Not a lot but enough to add some stability.

    https://www.youtube....h?v=ALemKloZlWE



    Rock on! You'll figure out what works for you just by doing it.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,386 ✭✭
    The Coug wrote:


    Finally got time to take the Cure RX1 out. J-tizzle and BigEx nailed it with their descriptions. Impossible to manipulate beyond 80 degrees. Sound was something only a mother could love. But man is it stable. I could feel myself pulling and pushing putts only to see them only move left edge or right edge.



    Check out the video. This was only at 6’ and change with the assistance of alignment markers, but from what I heard it is best to get muscle memory with short straight putts first. The few that I tried from distance were pretty rough. Didn’t have time to practice any swinging putts either.



    Any critiques from side saddle veterans is greatly appreciated.



    https://youtu.be/UXTfSgQjLkI




    There is nothing about that video not to like; great stuff! If you're hitting the hole consistently from 6', the rest of it will follow.



    Don't worry too much about distance problems; that'll come. Your brain just needs some time to translate the distance database from two hands parallel to one hand facing. And when the moment comes where you realize that the ball WILL start on the line you've picked every time, there will be a quantum leap in distance control as your mind frees up space.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,386 ✭✭
    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    edited Jan 21, 2019 9:14am #588
    bluedot wrote:


    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?




    I was just the opposite. I started with the "palm facing" grip, but was missing a lot of short putts when I did exactly what you described: an inside roll with my hand (almost the same action a bowler does). It actually caused me to give up sidesaddle putting for a number of years. I never even considered the "pencil or paintbrush" grip at the time. This was back in 2004. I was using Karl Higby's "Puttmagic" website as my sidesaddle source of information at the time and I didn't see anyone on that site using a paintbrush grip.



    Then I happened to see that grip on a sidesaddle putting video 10 years later and realized that it could be the answer to my dilemma. And it was. Although I have a slight modification. My thumb and forefinger are in the paint brush/pencil grip position, but my last 3 fingers are curled slightly behind the grip. If you made an imaginary gun with your hand (forefinger out, thumb up, last 3 fingers curled); that's a real good approximation of my sidesaddle grip. So when I hit a putt I feel the pressure in the crease between my thumb and forefinger AND on that 3d finger which is curled behind the grip. This gives me the added stability in the stroke that I was missing with a pure paintbrush grip (which you mentioned)



    As a result, I went back to sidesaddle around 2013 and have never looked back since.



    PS - Just ran down to my cellar and tried the other grip you mentioned. I didn't like it. For me, my RH felt very awkward and not in a natural position. To each their own!
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,386 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?




    I was just the opposite. I started with the "palm facing" grip, but was missing a lot of short putts when I did exactly what you described: an inside roll with my hand (almost the same action a bowler does). It actually caused me to give up sidesaddle putting for a number of years. I never even considered the "pencil or paintbrush" grip at the time. This was back in 2004. I was using Karl Higby's "Puttmagic" website as my sidesaddle source of information at the time and I didn't see anyone on that site using a paintbrush grip.



    Then I happened to see that grip on a sidesaddle putting video 10 years later and realized that it could be the answer to my dilemma. And it was. Although I have a slight modification. My thumb and forefinger are in the paint brush/pencil grip position, but my last 3 fingers are curled slightly behind the grip. If you made an imaginary gun with your hand (forefinger out, thumb up, last 3 fingers curled); that's a real good approximation of my sidesaddle grip. So when I hit a putt I feel the pressure in the crease between my thumb and forefinger AND on that 3d finger which is curled behind the grip. This gives me the added stability in the stroke that I was missing with a pure paintbrush grip (which you mentioned)



    As a result, I went back to sidesaddle around 2013 and have never looked back since.



    PS - Just ran down to my cellar and tried the other grip you mentioned. I didn't like it. For me, my RH felt very awkward and not in a natural position. To each their own!




    Got it; thanks. It sounds like we're on the same page with the strengths and weaknesses of the two "major" ways and thinking that something in between is probably the best way to go. One of the many great things about putting this way is that changes like this are so small and so easy to make that you don't have that feeling of going backwards that is so often the case with making changes.
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    bluedot wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?




    I was just the opposite. I started with the "palm facing" grip, but was missing a lot of short putts when I did exactly what you described: an inside roll with my hand (almost the same action a bowler does). It actually caused me to give up sidesaddle putting for a number of years. I never even considered the "pencil or paintbrush" grip at the time. This was back in 2004. I was using Karl Higby's "Puttmagic" website as my sidesaddle source of information at the time and I didn't see anyone on that site using a paintbrush grip.



    Then I happened to see that grip on a sidesaddle putting video 10 years later and realized that it could be the answer to my dilemma. And it was. Although I have a slight modification. My thumb and forefinger are in the paint brush/pencil grip position, but my last 3 fingers are curled slightly behind the grip. If you made an imaginary gun with your hand (forefinger out, thumb up, last 3 fingers curled); that's a real good approximation of my sidesaddle grip. So when I hit a putt I feel the pressure in the crease between my thumb and forefinger AND on that 3d finger which is curled behind the grip. This gives me the added stability in the stroke that I was missing with a pure paintbrush grip (which you mentioned)



    As a result, I went back to sidesaddle around 2013 and have never looked back since.



    PS - Just ran down to my cellar and tried the other grip you mentioned. I didn't like it. For me, my RH felt very awkward and not in a natural position. To each their own!




    Got it; thanks. It sounds like we're on the same page with the strengths and weaknesses of the two "major" ways and thinking that something in between is probably the best way to go. One of the many great things about putting this way is that changes like this are so small and so easy to make that you don't have that feeling of going backwards that is so often the case with making changes.




    Yep. Everyone just needs to figure out what works for them.
  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,324 ✭✭
    Pencil grip on bottom hand for me. Never thought about it... Just happened.
    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?




    I was just the opposite. I started with the "palm facing" grip, but was missing a lot of short putts when I did exactly what you described: an inside roll with my hand (almost the same action a bowler does). It actually caused me to give up sidesaddle putting for a number of years. I never even considered the "pencil or paintbrush" grip at the time. This was back in 2004. I was using Karl Higby's "Puttmagic" website as my sidesaddle source of information at the time and I didn't see anyone on that site using a paintbrush grip.



    Then I happened to see that grip on a sidesaddle putting video 10 years later and realized that it could be the answer to my dilemma. And it was. Although I have a slight modification. My thumb and forefinger are in the paint brush/pencil grip position, but my last 3 fingers are curled slightly behind the grip. If you made an imaginary gun with your hand (forefinger out, thumb up, last 3 fingers curled); that's a real good approximation of my sidesaddle grip. So when I hit a putt I feel the pressure in the crease between my thumb and forefinger AND on that 3d finger which is curled behind the grip. This gives me the added stability in the stroke that I was missing with a pure paintbrush grip (which you mentioned)



    As a result, I went back to sidesaddle around 2013 and have never looked back since.



    PS - Just ran down to my cellar and tried the other grip you mentioned. I didn't like it. For me, my RH felt very awkward and not in a natural position. To each their own!




    Got it; thanks. It sounds like we're on the same page with the strengths and weaknesses of the two "major" ways and thinking that something in between is probably the best way to go. One of the many great things about putting this way is that changes like this are so small and so easy to make that you don't have that feeling of going backwards that is so often the case with making changes.




    Yep. Everyone just needs to figure out what works for them.




    I wonder what % of SS putters use the palm vs the pencil/paintbrush grip? Interesting......
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?




    I was just the opposite. I started with the "palm facing" grip, but was missing a lot of short putts when I did exactly what you described: an inside roll with my hand (almost the same action a bowler does). It actually caused me to give up sidesaddle putting for a number of years. I never even considered the "pencil or paintbrush" grip at the time. This was back in 2004. I was using Karl Higby's "Puttmagic" website as my sidesaddle source of information at the time and I didn't see anyone on that site using a paintbrush grip.



    Then I happened to see that grip on a sidesaddle putting video 10 years later and realized that it could be the answer to my dilemma. And it was. Although I have a slight modification. My thumb and forefinger are in the paint brush/pencil grip position, but my last 3 fingers are curled slightly behind the grip. If you made an imaginary gun with your hand (forefinger out, thumb up, last 3 fingers curled); that's a real good approximation of my sidesaddle grip. So when I hit a putt I feel the pressure in the crease between my thumb and forefinger AND on that 3d finger which is curled behind the grip. This gives me the added stability in the stroke that I was missing with a pure paintbrush grip (which you mentioned)



    As a result, I went back to sidesaddle around 2013 and have never looked back since.



    PS - Just ran down to my cellar and tried the other grip you mentioned. I didn't like it. For me, my RH felt very awkward and not in a natural position. To each their own!




    Got it; thanks. It sounds like we're on the same page with the strengths and weaknesses of the two "major" ways and thinking that something in between is probably the best way to go. One of the many great things about putting this way is that changes like this are so small and so easy to make that you don't have that feeling of going backwards that is so often the case with making changes.




    Yep. Everyone just needs to figure out what works for them.




    Exactly. I use more of a paint brush style with my bottom hand rather than the palm forward style in the video. For me personally, I struggled with my touch on faster greens using the method presented in the video, but its 100% whatever works for you.



    The stroke looks great! Thats the style that you use with the Juan more than the F22 (for me at least). With the 80*, putter floored, rather than the toe down style that I kinda use, but at the end of the day, its all about which method works the best for you! Enjoy the change to side saddle, you won't regret it once you get used to your friends giving you crap! Thats the biggest warning I have for people making the switch. You'll absolutely putt better, but you just have to make sure your skin is thick enough to take the razzing.
    G400 8.5* - G400 14.5* - Baffler 19.5* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Gorge Stealth 56* (@55*), 60* - BG F22
  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members Posts: 348 ✭✭
    I'm 3 months into my sidesaddle adventure, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just wanted to share some issues that have come up along the way.
    • Long putts: I'm still a complete mess on 30+ foot putts...topping the ball, way off center hits, thus no distance control. So I think I might stick to a conventional stroke on longer putts, unless anyone is very successful on long putts and has some tips.
    • Soreness: I can't practice for long periods of time because my right hamstring gets tight from basically keeping all my weight on that leg. Does anyone else experience this?


    On a good note, I feel like I can legitimately make anything inside of 10 feet. I actually love downhill putts now. And putting from the fringe, while straddling the line, should be illegal (not really), but it's so awesome.
    "Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,386 ✭✭


    I'm 3 months into my sidesaddle adventure, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just wanted to share some issues that have come up along the way.
    • Long putts: I'm still a complete mess on 30+ foot putts...topping the ball, way off center hits, thus no distance control. So I think I might stick to a conventional stroke on longer putts, unless anyone is very successful on long putts and has some tips.
    • Soreness: I can't practice for long periods of time because my right hamstring gets tight from basically keeping all my weight on that leg. Does anyone else experience this?


    On a good note, I feel like I can legitimately make anything inside of 10 feet. I actually love downhill putts now. And putting from the fringe, while straddling the line, should be illegal (not really), but it's so awesome.




    Be patient on the long putting/distance control thing; it'll come. Keep your head down and focus on solid contact, just like on a long conventional putt, and give your brain time to "translate" your database about putting from one method to the other. You know a ton about speed and grain and slope and all the rest, but it's all based on years and years and years of putting one way; it just has to be converted over.



    Think of it this way: If you were going to roll the ball to the hole 10' away without a club, you'd face the hole and roll it underhand with one hand, like bowling, right?. If I move you back to 20', you'd still do it the same way, just with a little more arm swing or speed. So how far back would I take you before you would turn sideways and sling the ball toward the hole with two hands? The answer of course, is that you wouldn't; it would NEVER be easier to throw a ball that way. And it isn't easier to putt that way, either, until you get to a distance where you need turn and torque and weight shift and want to fly the ball part of the way.



    Just give it time. All of a sudden one day you'll realize you can't remember when or why you were worried about it.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,386 ✭✭
    J-Tizzle wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    Looking at The Coug's video has prompted me to ask a question to all on this thread: What grip are you using with your bottom hand?



    Here's why I ask: I started out almost 4 years ago in what I'll call the paintbrush grip; thumb to one side, other four fingers on the other side, shaft in the crease between thumb and index finger. About two months in, I switched sort of without even thinking about it to the palm facing grip with my index finger extending down the shaft and the shaft along the lifeline of my hand, and I've putted that way since. Every now and then, I'll experiment with the paintbrush again, but always go back to palm facing. The big pro of palm facing is feel with the palm and index finger involved; the only con is that I feel like my hand at times wants to roll to the inside and longer putts can miss left if I'm not intentional about that.



    BUT in some of the tournaments a I play, there is a guy who putts face on, and has for many years, who wraps all his fingers around the club so that the knuckles of the other four fingers are facing the hole, along with the tip of the thumb. (You might have to pause and pick up a putter to visualize this.) I watched him for two days on the practice green at a tournament at Myrtle Beach in early December, and he is just a GREAT putter, so I tried that grip and really like it. Feels more stable than the paintbrush, less likely to pull left on longer putts than the palm facing. But he's the ONLY guy I've ever seen use this grip in person or in a video.



    So what's your progression and experience with that bottom hand grip?




    I was just the opposite. I started with the "palm facing" grip, but was missing a lot of short putts when I did exactly what you described: an inside roll with my hand (almost the same action a bowler does). It actually caused me to give up sidesaddle putting for a number of years. I never even considered the "pencil or paintbrush" grip at the time. This was back in 2004. I was using Karl Higby's "Puttmagic" website as my sidesaddle source of information at the time and I didn't see anyone on that site using a paintbrush grip.



    Then I happened to see that grip on a sidesaddle putting video 10 years later and realized that it could be the answer to my dilemma. And it was. Although I have a slight modification. My thumb and forefinger are in the paint brush/pencil grip position, but my last 3 fingers are curled slightly behind the grip. If you made an imaginary gun with your hand (forefinger out, thumb up, last 3 fingers curled); that's a real good approximation of my sidesaddle grip. So when I hit a putt I feel the pressure in the crease between my thumb and forefinger AND on that 3d finger which is curled behind the grip. This gives me the added stability in the stroke that I was missing with a pure paintbrush grip (which you mentioned)



    As a result, I went back to sidesaddle around 2013 and have never looked back since.



    PS - Just ran down to my cellar and tried the other grip you mentioned. I didn't like it. For me, my RH felt very awkward and not in a natural position. To each their own!




    Got it; thanks. It sounds like we're on the same page with the strengths and weaknesses of the two "major" ways and thinking that something in between is probably the best way to go. One of the many great things about putting this way is that changes like this are so small and so easy to make that you don't have that feeling of going backwards that is so often the case with making changes.




    Yep. Everyone just needs to figure out what works for them.




    Exactly. I use more of a paint brush style with my bottom hand rather than the palm forward style in the video. For me personally, I struggled with my touch on faster greens using the method presented in the video, but its 100% whatever works for you.



    The stroke looks great! Thats the style that you use with the Juan more than the F22 (for me at least). With the 80*, putter floored, rather than the toe down style that I kinda use, but at the end of the day, its all about which method works the best for you! Enjoy the change to side saddle, you won't regret it once you get used to your friends giving you crap! Thats the biggest warning I have for people making the switch. You'll absolutely putt better, but you just have to make sure your skin is thick enough to take the razzing.




    Agreed, and I'll add one thing to this: It is NEVER good players who react; it's chops who think they are good players. I played 35 or so senior tournaments last year, and ONE guy all year said anything that remotely resembled a needle. The guys that did comment were interested and curious, and even want to try it themselves.



    Good players would do ANYTHING to get the ball in the hole one shot sooner; chops are threatened because if I do this and it works better than what they are doing, then maybe they are doing it wrong, which makes them uncomfortable.



    All of this is easy for me, because I don't give a **** about what anybody thinks about much of anything, but that's not true of everybody and you do have to be ready for it if you convert.
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭
    I don't mean that in a bad way at all, mostly friendly joking from my playing buddies.



    Most people end up wanting to see it and try it out, only to say "oh I don't see how you make anything with that". Usually it just takes a few tight rolls and most people are like what you said, willing to try anything to get the ball in the hole.
    G400 8.5* - G400 14.5* - Baffler 19.5* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Gorge Stealth 56* (@55*), 60* - BG F22
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭


    I'm 3 months into my sidesaddle adventure, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just wanted to share some issues that have come up along the way.
    • Long putts: I'm still a complete mess on 30+ foot putts...topping the ball, way off center hits, thus no distance control. So I think I might stick to a conventional stroke on longer putts, unless anyone is very successful on long putts and has some tips.
    • Soreness: I can't practice for long periods of time because my right hamstring gets tight from basically keeping all my weight on that leg. Does anyone else experience this?


    On a good note, I feel like I can legitimately make anything inside of 10 feet. I actually love downhill putts now. And putting from the fringe, while straddling the line, should be illegal (not really), but it's so awesome.




    Something you might take a look at on the longer putts. I found that for myself, I like to have the ball further forward for my short and intermediate putts - but using that same ball position on longer putts had me topping the ball sometimes. So now on those really long putts, I move the ball closer to my feet/body. Made a huge difference in my long lag putts. How much closer you bring the ball comes from trial and error....
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 269 ✭✭
    edited Jan 23, 2019 6:34am #599
    bluedot wrote:


    Agreed, and I'll add one thing to this: It is NEVER good players who react; it's chops who think they are good players. I played 35 or so senior tournaments last year, and ONE guy all year said anything that remotely resembled a needle. The guys that did comment were interested and curious, and even want to try it themselves.



    Good players would do ANYTHING to get the ball in the hole one shot sooner; chops are threatened because if I do this and it works better than what they are doing, then maybe they are doing it wrong, which makes them uncomfortable.



    All of this is easy for me, because I don't give a **** about what anybody thinks about much of anything, but that's not true of everybody and you do have to be ready for it if you convert.




    I've experienced the same thing. All high handicappers see is a weird putting stroke. All low handicappers see is how nice the ball rolls!



    And like you, I've been SS putting going on 6 years now, so I don't even notice/care what others think anymore.



    Once the putts start rolling in, even the high handicappers start to become curious.....
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 487 ✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:



    I'm 3 months into my sidesaddle adventure, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just wanted to share some issues that have come up along the way.
    • Long putts: I'm still a complete mess on 30+ foot putts...topping the ball, way off center hits, thus no distance control. So I think I might stick to a conventional stroke on longer putts, unless anyone is very successful on long putts and has some tips.
    • Soreness: I can't practice for long periods of time because my right hamstring gets tight from basically keeping all my weight on that leg. Does anyone else experience this?


    On a good note, I feel like I can legitimately make anything inside of 10 feet. I actually love downhill putts now. And putting from the fringe, while straddling the line, should be illegal (not really), but it's so awesome.




    Something you might take a look at on the longer putts. I found that for myself, I like to have the ball further forward for my short and intermediate putts - but using that same ball position on longer putts had me topping the ball sometimes. So now on those really long putts, I move the ball closer to my feet/body. Made a huge difference in my long lag putts. How much closer you bring the ball comes from trial and error....




    On longer putts I use the LFI arm lock style rather than SS. Bobby Grace said he actually designed the putter to be used either way. Have you ever tried this?
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:

    BigEx44 wrote:



    I'm 3 months into my sidesaddle adventure, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just wanted to share some issues that have come up along the way.
    • Long putts: I'm still a complete mess on 30+ foot putts...topping the ball, way off center hits, thus no distance control. So I think I might stick to a conventional stroke on longer putts, unless anyone is very successful on long putts and has some tips.
    • Soreness: I can't practice for long periods of time because my right hamstring gets tight from basically keeping all my weight on that leg. Does anyone else experience this?


    On a good note, I feel like I can legitimately make anything inside of 10 feet. I actually love downhill putts now. And putting from the fringe, while straddling the line, should be illegal (not really), but it's so awesome.




    Something you might take a look at on the longer putts. I found that for myself, I like to have the ball further forward for my short and intermediate putts - but using that same ball position on longer putts had me topping the ball sometimes. So now on those really long putts, I move the ball closer to my feet/body. Made a huge difference in my long lag putts. How much closer you bring the ball comes from trial and error....




    On longer putts I use the LFI arm lock style rather than SS. Bobby Grace said he actually designed the putter to be used either way. Have you ever tried this?




    I will admit, when I have a monster putt (or a slow up hill one) I've topped a few still to this day. I figure it happens so rarely I don't really fret about it too much. But I honestly just try to take a shorter stroke than what I think I need to and hit it harder with my bottom hand. Thats my "for dummies" approach to really long putts.
    G400 8.5* - G400 14.5* - Baffler 19.5* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Gorge Stealth 56* (@55*), 60* - BG F22
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