Diamana Kai'li vs. GD Tour AD DI

If you like how the DI feels, try the BB or 9003x. The BB is mid launch, low spin, but the 9003x is low-low, and you really need to bring the heat to load it.

To answer your question, it depends on how you load the shaft. The Kai'li is butt stiff and tip soft, so it'll react very differently vs the DI (I'm not even sure how you describe that profile).

For me, in stock, untipped form, the Kai'li is lower launching than the Tour AD DI.

I tipped my AD DI 1" though and now it launches a bit lower than my untipped Kai'li.

Kai'li 70X untipped in SFTP 1.0 or in a R9 Superdeep(unfair comparison for LOW launch), is a mid=mid low launch machine. I find the Stiff version to play a touch soft to spec for my swing...the X is right on.

Thanks for the responses so far. Ugo DeRosa reminded me that I didn't say that both shafts are untipped.

Puppetmaster- I am interested to feel the difference in overall feel between these shafts. To be honest I have never really loved the AD DI in terms of feel. I never hated it, but never really loved it. I prefer a little smoother shaft. This is where I think the Diamana will feel better for my swing.

The AD DI has been a fairway machine, but I just don't have the feel or workability I want out of my driver. It is almost too straight for me. I also rarely "kill one" with this shaft when compared to other shafts (Matrix xcon, fubuki, etc). I'm not really sure why. It seems as though the AD DI is very consistent in terms of its launch and is a very straight hitting shaft, but I have troubles working the ball either way and really killing a nice draw on longer holes.

I find the fubuki tour to be much easier to work and seem to hit it slightly longer on my good ones. The fubuki also launches a little high for me and spins a little too much. I know it is very similar to the Kai'li, but I was hoping to get a slightly lower launching, slightly lower spin version of the Fubuki Tour.

I also play the head at an open + position to lower the effective loft of the head.

On paper, the kai'li should launch lower than the DI (see titleist shaft comparison chart...yeah, I know it's not a definitive resource but it's not baseless either). The kai'li is certainly not a tip soft shaft either.

I may have missed it but I don't think you mentioned what weight classes you're playing and considering. The 7 series in both the kai'li and DI certainly launch lower and spin less than their 6 counterparts.

[quote name='drpino' timestamp='1337032366' post='4914290']
On paper, the kai'li should launch lower than the DI (see titleist shaft comparison chart...yeah, I know it's not a definitive resource but it's not baseless either). The kai'li is certainly not a tip soft shaft either.

I may have missed it but I don't think you mentioned what weight classes you're playing and considering. The 7 series in both the kai'li and DI certainly launch lower and spin less than their 6 counterparts.
[/quote]

I did forgot the weight class. Thank you for reminding me. I am in the 60 gram weight class. Tour AD DI-6-R and the Diamana Kai'li 60-R. Both will be cut to 43.5 inches from the butt end (I am short).

The 6 class in the kai'li does play a hair soft so might require a little tipping to achieve what you desire in terms of launch.

All that being said, the simplest and most effective way to lower your launch angle is to go down in loft on the head.

Edit: no need to change heads if you are using the FIT TA. Try opening the face angle a little (for lower effective loft at impact) and increasing the weight in the heel to aid in squaring the club face.

[quote name='drpino' timestamp='1337034982' post='4914502']
The 6 class in the kai'li does play a hair soft so might require a little tipping to achieve what you desire in terms of launch.

All that being said, the simplest and most effective way to lower your launch angle is to go down in loft on the head.

Edit: no need to change heads if you are using the FIT TA. Try opening the face angle a little (for lower effective loft at impact) and increasing the weight in the heel to aid in squaring the club face.
[/quote]

Thank you for the advice. This is exactly what i was looking for. I have set the club to "o-" to lower the effective loft and added the 8 gram weight instead of the 4 gram weight to the heel. This along with the Kai'li should do the trick. Thanks again.

[quote name='gavman07' timestamp='1337029668' post='4914040']
[b]The AD DI has been a fairway machine, but I just don't have the feel or workability I want out of my driver. It is almost too straight for me. I also rarely "kill one" with this shaft when compared to other shafts (Matrix xcon, fubuki, etc). I'm not really sure why. It seems as though the AD DI is very consistent in terms of its launch and is a very straight hitting shaft, but I have troubles working the ball either way and really killing a nice draw on longer holes. [/b]

I find the fubuki tour to be much easier to work and seem to hit it slightly longer on my good ones. The fubuki also launches a little high for me and spins a little too much. I know it is very similar to the Kai'li, but I was hoping to get a slightly lower launching, slightly lower spin version of the Fubuki Tour.
[/quote]

That's a very interesting point, because that's what I found myself, and have heard the same from others. The consistency of the DI and the ability to somehow reduce the dispersion from directional mishits.

Have you tried a Fubuki Alpha or Fubuki K? Those are slightly tighter and lower launch than the Tour, generally speaking.

[quote name='gavman07' timestamp='1337025977' post='4913608']

I was looking for something that launches a little lower than these shafts and has similar low spin. I thought that the Diamana Kai'li would be the golden ticket, but after a search of the forums it seems that many people said they launched "higher" with the kai'li than they did with the tour ad di. I found this to be strange because the tour AD DI is touted as a high launch low spin and the Kai'li is supposed to be a mid launch/low spin option.

I realize they are different producers and therefore their definition of high or mid may differ, but has everyone that has tried these shafts had a similar result?

Will the Kai'li actually launch higher? and will it spin more or less?

Are there other shaft options you would recommend to lower launch/spin instead?
[/quote]

GAVMAN

Below is the bend profile measurement data for the AD-DI-6 S and the Kaili 60 S. Analysis to follow the graphs.

[attachment=1164282:DI vs Kaili.JPG]

FYI on the info - we take 7 comparative stiffness measurements on all shafts, taken in 5" separations from the butt to the tip. The measurement positions of 41, 36, 31, 26, 21, 16,11 are the positions in inches up from the tip of the shafts. So the 41 and 36 are the butt section, 31, 26 the center section, and 21,16,11 are the tip section. Yes there are overlaps between each area of the shaft because all shafts bend over their entire length and not in separate sections. BUt we talk about the separate sections because they can be pertinent to specific swing movements of golfers from a standpoint of what swing moves make shafts perform this way or that.

As you see, the two shafts are VERY CLOSE To each other in their butt to center stiffness. So close that these differences are insignificant and thus mean from butt to middle of the shaft, these two shafts are identical. BY virtue of the butt to center section measurements of these two shafts, both shafts would be rated as for a golfer with a 95 to 110 mph swing speed. However for a 95mph to 100 mph player to use these, they would need to have a little shorter backswing plus stronger more forceful transition move and for a 105-110mph golfer to use these shafts, they would need to have a less forceful more gradual application of force to start the downswing.

The real difference in these shafts is in the tip section with the Kaili 60 being more tip flexible than the AD-DI 6.

A shaft like the AD-DI6 with its tip section at 352/486/843 is tip firm, but most definitely not super tip firm. S flex shafts which are very tip firm would be in the area of 400/550/900. The Kaili on the other hand is considered by its tip section measurements to be a tip medium stiffness design. So when you compare performance, FOR A PLAYER WITH A LATE RELEASE the Kaili is a little higher spin higher trajectory shaft while the AD-DI is a little lower spin lower trajectory shaft BUT NOT BY A HUGE AMOUNT.

If a player of this swing speed range felt he wanted a shaft that launched lower and had less spin, he would typically want to have a stiffer tip than the AD-DI 6 S has. But of these two, it is true that the AD-DI 6S has the stiffer tip section by a little bit and from that would be considered to be a slightly lower spin shaft in comparison to the Kaili 60 S.

TOM

Tom that is fricken sweet.

Ok Tom
I am the 95-100 mph swing long back swing and an early release,HAve been using a Kal'li for a couple of years. I guess you are saying there are better choices, What would they be? Good timing as Im looking for a shaft for my Razr Fit.

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1337092239' post='4917886']
[quote name='gavman07' timestamp='1337025977' post='4913608']
I was looking for something that launches a little lower than these shafts and has similar low spin. I thought that the Diamana Kai'li would be the golden ticket, but after a search of the forums it seems that many people said they launched "higher" with the kai'li than they did with the tour ad di. I found this to be strange because the tour AD DI is touted as a high launch low spin and the Kai'li is supposed to be a mid launch/low spin option.

I realize they are different producers and therefore their definition of high or mid may differ, but has everyone that has tried these shafts had a similar result?

Will the Kai'li actually launch higher? and will it spin more or less?

Are there other shaft options you would recommend to lower launch/spin instead?
[/quote]

GAVMAN

Below is the bend profile measurement data for the AD-DI-6 S and the Kaili 60 S. Analysis to follow the graphs.

[attachment=1164282:DI vs Kaili.JPG]

FYI on the info - we take 7 comparative stiffness measurements on all shafts, taken in 5" separations from the butt to the tip. The measurement positions of 41, 36, 31, 26, 21, 16,11 are the positions in inches up from the tip of the shafts. So the 41 and 36 are the butt section, 31, 26 the center section, and 21,16,11 are the tip section. Yes there are overlaps between each area of the shaft because all shafts bend over their entire length and not in separate sections. BUt we talk about the separate sections because they can be pertinent to specific swing movements of golfers from a standpoint of what swing moves make shafts perform this way or that.

As you see, the two shafts are VERY CLOSE To each other in their butt to center stiffness. So close that these differences are insignificant and thus mean from butt to middle of the shaft, these two shafts are identical. BY virtue of the butt to center section measurements of these two shafts, both shafts would be rated as for a golfer with a 95 to 110 mph swing speed. However for a 95mph to 100 mph player to use these, they would need to have a little shorter backswing plus stronger more forceful transition move and for a 105-110mph golfer to use these shafts, they would need to have a less forceful more gradual application of force to start the downswing.

The real difference in these shafts is in the tip section with the Kaili 60 being more tip flexible than the AD-DI 6.

A shaft like the AD-DI6 with its tip section at 352/486/843 is tip firm, but most definitely not super tip firm. S flex shafts which are very tip firm would be in the area of 400/550/900. The Kaili on the other hand is considered by its tip section measurements to be a tip medium stiffness design. So when you compare performance, FOR A PLAYER WITH A LATE RELEASE the Kaili is a little higher spin higher trajectory shaft while the AD-DI is a little lower spin lower trajectory shaft BUT NOT BY A HUGE AMOUNT.

If a player of this swing speed range felt he wanted a shaft that launched lower and had less spin, he would typically want to have a stiffer tip than the AD-DI 6 S has. But of these two, it is true that the AD-DI 6S has the stiffer tip section by a little bit and from that would be considered to be a slightly lower spin shaft in comparison to the Kaili 60 S.

TOM
[/quote]

Wow, that's great information. Thanks for posting.

At a fitting about a month ago we tweaked my D3, which has an RIP Alpha 60 stiff, but it still feels a lot less smooth to me than I would like.

It was suggested if I still didn't like the feel, I might look into the AD DI 6 as an option for my driver.

Would the comparison fo the AD DI 6 to the RIP be similar the other way to the comparison of the AD DI 6 to the Kaili?

[quote name='ealuff' timestamp='1337095877' post='4918346']
Ok Tom
I am the 95-100 mph swing long back swing and an early release,HAve been using a Kal'li for a couple of years. I guess you are saying there are better choices, What would they be? Good timing as Im looking for a shaft for my Razr Fit.
[/quote]

I never, ever second guess any golfers choice of shaft as long as they say they like the feel and are happy with the ball flight shape. We have to put golfer fitting guidelines to the measurements we make on shafts because there has to be a way for clubmakers and golfers to be able to narrow the range of possible shaft recommendations for golfers.

But this aspect of GOLFER FEEL FOR A SHAFT is super important and it can trump all the fitting guidelines we create for shafts. In other words, I can sit here and tell you what shaft I might recommend for your clubhead speed, your transition force, your downswing tempo, your wrist-c o c k release and your golf strength - but if you tell me you don't like the feel of that shaft or the ball flight shape of the shot with that shaft, as a fitter I have to listen to that and then go find the shaft that best meets those feel and shot shape requirements you have.

That doesn't happen all that often because there are a lot of golfers who end up really liking the shaft that a fitter might recommend based on all these bend profile measurements and analysis.

But my point is that I have seen golfers reject an "on paper" shaft fitting in favor of feel or shot shape. Hence another reason why shaft fitting is best done in person so you can SEE the golfer's swing characteristics and you can hear him voice his preferences.

At any rate, to make any type of valid shaft recommendation, we always have to have the following from a golfer:

1. Accurate clubhead speed for the driver and the 5 or 6 iron
2. An evaluation of whether the golfer's Transition Move is forceful, average or passive to start the downswing
3. An evaluation of whether the golfer's downswing tempo is aggressive, average or passive
4. An evaluation of whether the golfer unhinges the wrist-c o c k angle early, midway or late on the downswing
5. An evaluation of whether the golfer's strength and use of that strength in his swing is Above average, average or below average compared to other golfers of your age
6. It also helps for "breaking ties" to know if the golfer's backswing length is 3/4 or short of parallel, About Parallel or past parallel.

These are the parameters that all good clubfitters have to evaluate from golfers to be able to do a good job in their shaft fitting.

TOM

Thanks for the info. WAs fitted into the Kai'li and just got used to it. A lot of parameters go into shaft fitting besides BAll speed, spin and launch. DOnt think all of the parameters you listed were taken into account when I was fitted.Thanks again

Mr. Wishon,

The detailed information that you and other industry professionals such as Joe Kwok provide here is a generous donation of your time, and a subtantial addition to the body of knowledge that most of us have scarcely scratched the surface of.

Thanks so much for your detailed and informative responses.

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1337092239' post='4917886']
[quote name='gavman07' timestamp='1337025977' post='4913608']

I was looking for something that launches a little lower than these shafts and has similar low spin. I thought that the Diamana Kai'li would be the golden ticket, but after a search of the forums it seems that many people said they launched "higher" with the kai'li than they did with the tour ad di. I found this to be strange because the tour AD DI is touted as a high launch low spin and the Kai'li is supposed to be a mid launch/low spin option.

I realize they are different producers and therefore their definition of high or mid may differ, but has everyone that has tried these shafts had a similar result?

Will the Kai'li actually launch higher? and will it spin more or less?

Are there other shaft options you would recommend to lower launch/spin instead?
[/quote]

GAVMAN

Below is the bend profile measurement data for the AD-DI-6 S and the Kaili 60 S. Analysis to follow the graphs.

[attachment=1164282:DI vs Kaili.JPG]

FYI on the info - we take 7 comparative stiffness measurements on all shafts, taken in 5" separations from the butt to the tip. The measurement positions of 41, 36, 31, 26, 21, 16,11 are the positions in inches up from the tip of the shafts. So the 41 and 36 are the butt section, 31, 26 the center section, and 21,16,11 are the tip section. Yes there are overlaps between each area of the shaft because all shafts bend over their entire length and not in separate sections. BUt we talk about the separate sections because they can be pertinent to specific swing movements of golfers from a standpoint of what swing moves make shafts perform this way or that.

As you see, the two shafts are VERY CLOSE To each other in their butt to center stiffness. So close that these differences are insignificant and thus mean from butt to middle of the shaft, these two shafts are identical. BY virtue of the butt to center section measurements of these two shafts, both shafts would be rated as for a golfer with a 95 to 110 mph swing speed. However for a 95mph to 100 mph player to use these, they would need to have a little shorter backswing plus stronger more forceful transition move and for a 105-110mph golfer to use these shafts, they would need to have a less forceful more gradual application of force to start the downswing.

The real difference in these shafts is in the tip section with the Kaili 60 being more tip flexible than the AD-DI 6.

A shaft like the AD-DI6 with its tip section at 352/486/843 is tip firm, but most definitely not super tip firm. S flex shafts which are very tip firm would be in the area of 400/550/900. The Kaili on the other hand is considered by its tip section measurements to be a tip medium stiffness design. So when you compare performance, FOR A PLAYER WITH A LATE RELEASE the Kaili is a little higher spin higher trajectory shaft while the AD-DI is a little lower spin lower trajectory shaft BUT NOT BY A HUGE AMOUNT.

If a player of this swing speed range felt he wanted a shaft that launched lower and had less spin, he would typically want to have a stiffer tip than the AD-DI 6 S has. But of these two, it is true that the AD-DI 6S has the stiffer tip section by a little bit and from that would be considered to be a slightly lower spin shaft in comparison to the Kaili 60 S.

TOM
[/quote]

Post of the year Tom

[quote name='Mirage' timestamp='1337123859' post='4921208']
Mr. Wishon,

The detailed information that you and other industry professionals such as Joe Kwok provide here is a generous donation of your time, and a subtantial addition to the body of knowledge that most of us have scarcely scratched the surface of.

Thanks so much for your detailed and informative responses.
[/quote]


Agreed.

[quote name='ealuff' timestamp='1337095877' post='4918346']
Ok Tom
I am the 95-100 mph swing long back swing and an early release,HAve been using a Kal'li for a couple of years. I guess you are saying there are better choices, What would they be? Good timing as Im looking for a shaft for my Razr Fit.
[/quote]


I'm not an expert and I feel a little shy after reading Tom's post (and I'd like to thank him very much for his time ) .

My SS is similar to your and me too I've played a Kai'li 60S in my Razr Hawk tour last year and I really loved the combo.

This year I couldn't resist and I bought a Razr Fit and installed a Matrix Ozik X-con 6 S and I must telly ou (for me ) it is the best driver I ever had , I'm reaching places on my golf course that I never saw before .

I preferr a smooth shaft and I think that the X-con with the Razr fit is money !!

I wasn't fitted neither for the Kai'li or the X-con, I try and then go for what feels and works better for me.

Just my 0,2 cent.

[quote name='ottonegolf' timestamp='1337156138' post='4923654']
[quote name='ealuff' timestamp='1337095877' post='4918346']
Ok Tom
I am the 95-100 mph swing long back swing and an early release,HAve been using a Kal'li for a couple of years. I guess you are saying there are better choices, What would they be? Good timing as Im looking for a shaft for my Razr Fit.
[/quote]


I'm not an expert and I feel a little shy after reading Tom's post (and I'd like to thank him very much for his time ) .

My SS is similar to your and me too I've played a Kai'li 60S in my Razr Hawk tour last year and I really loved the combo.

This year I couldn't resist and I bought a Razr Fit and installed a Matrix Ozik X-con 6 S and I must telly ou (for me ) it is the best driver I ever had , I'm reaching places on my golf course that I never saw before .

I preferr a smooth shaft and I think that the X-con with the Razr fit is money !!

I wasn't fitted neither for the Kai'li or the X-con, I try and then go for what feels and works better for me.

Just my 0,2 cent.

[/quote]
I had the Kai'li from the RHT, In thr RHT it was money but don't love in the RF. The RF is easier to hit and I am actually using the stock shaft for now. Cally Tour Van coiming to out club next week so Ill try some other shafts. Will try the XCon at your recommendation.

This is all great info. I currently use the Kai'li stiff in a 910 because I love the feel of it. It's really smooth and I can find the center of the clubface easily. Only issue is a slightly higher ballflight than I'd like but it's not a huge deal.

What are some other shafts that might be as smooth as the Kai'li and as soft in the tip but might give a little lower flight?

I've also used a PX 7C3 in this club and liked the ballflight but it didn't have the same feel and I couldn't find the center of the clubface as easily with it. It's not as common but would the 7D3 be an option?

I hit the razr fit with di, whiteboard, alpha, and others. Fubuki alpha was the ticket over the di....launched lower with same low spin and feels great in fit head as does di. It was MUCH BETTER than fubuki tour.

Sorry I haven't responded. I haven't been checking up on the thread like I should.

Tom- Thank you very much for the info. That is the most helpful thread I have every seen on the boards. Thank you for taking your time out to help me. I really appreciate it. I agree completely with what you said about the "paper fitting". I have a twin brother and we have slightly difference swings, but the same swing speed and physical measurements. There are some shafts that I love that he absolutely hates and vice versa. The type of swing or swing characteristics play the most important role in my opinion, but I am not a professional.

Thanks to everyone who has posted. This info is priceless. I have heard several individuals that love the Fubuki alpha in this clubhead so I may have to give it a try.