Categorizing the PGA courses - Need help

golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
Hey guys, would like to ask for your help. I am working on a little side project, and I need to categorize the PGA courses into "like" courses, i.e. group similar courses. I was wondering if the knowledgeable here on the site could help me? Below is the list, as well as a number associated. My goal is to generate a list that shows e.g. Siverado CC (#1) = #15 (Torrey South), #25 (TPC San Anotonia) etc....



That was just an example. I am sure they are probably not "like"



Any case.... any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't expect you to complete the full list, but if you know that a course is "like" another, if you could please comment.



Thanks



"Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones

Comments

  • chas521chas521 Members Posts: 1,156 ✭✭
    Bethpage Black - Farmingdale, NY
  • Stensons3WoodStensons3Wood In the Fairway Members Posts: 162
    Riviera / Colonial

    CC of Jackson / Sedgefield





    Four Seasons / TPC of Louisiana
  • exgolfproexgolfpro Members Posts: 776 ✭✭
    Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.



    Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial



    Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake



    Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston
  • patk35patk35 Members Posts: 44
    Have you considered looking at it by the numbers? Take for example number of bunkers, holes with water in play, yardage, forced carry yardage, etc. An easier way at least for initial groupings would be to sort the courses in to basic types ie canyon, parkland, sandbelt, etc. Another factor I'd look at is architects, and their various influences, there's not going to be a whole lot of architects and or firms that work at PGA tour caliber. Individual opinions are not going to point in the direction of a meaningful conclusion without a curated sample representing a certain population (all golfers, golfwrx users, etc.). I'd be happy to help out any further as it sounds like an interesting project.
    Eye 2's for life
  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    I'd say the 3 most similar are ANGC, Houston, Muirfield. Course setup at ANGC and Houston generally seems fairly similar.
    M2, maybe
    915 FD
    913 HD
    712u 3
    714 AP2 4-p
    SM5 53, 59
    Circa62
  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    exgolfpro wrote:


    Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.



    Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial



    Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake



    Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston




    ExgolfPro,





    Those are some eclectic groupings. I was wondering if you could put some perspective on the decision making process. Eg. Sawgrass with Pebble?





    Thanks for the replies btw guys.... keep them coming.



    In the near term, I am specifically interested to see what courses you would lump with East Lake (since I can run my analysis using last week's data).... as well as Silverado CC, so I can run my analysis software for the next event.



    Thanks.
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    I think Aronimink, sedgefield, and east lake would go together. Same designer, about 4 holes where water comes into play on each course, similar length with a rating of about 75 for each. Right around 7200 yards each. Very quick greens with modest contour.
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  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    melo wrote:


    I think Aronimink, sedgefield, and east lake would go together. Same designer, about 4 holes where water comes into play on each course, similar length with a rating of about 75 for each. Right around 7200 yards each. Very quick greens with modest contour.




    Thanks Melo for the input.
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    golfnhack wrote:

    melo wrote:


    I think Aronimink, sedgefield, and east lake would go together. Same designer, about 4 holes where water comes into play on each course, similar length with a rating of about 75 for each. Right around 7200 yards each. Very quick greens with modest contour.




    Thanks Melo for the input.




    No problem...while this year was obviously quite different, past events have yielded similar scores in relation to par as well, especially at Aronimink and EL. Sedgefield always has lower scores than most tour stops.



    As far as Augusta goes, I don't think it is anything like Bay Hill at all. It is most similar to Spyglass, Congressional Blue and Muirfield.



    Many of the Florida courses would be lumped together.
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  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    edited Sep 30, 2015 #11
    PS: Anyone know if there are any other PGA Tour Courses "like" Silverado CC?
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    " Miller compares the North's new look to a former nursery in Georgia: "It looks like Augusta National. It has the deep-green color, the white sand is a knockout, and you can't get better oak trees than what we have at Silverado." - that's a quote from the guy who did the redesign.
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  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    melo wrote:


    " Miller compares the North's new look to a former nursery in Georgia: "It looks like Augusta National. It has the deep-green color, the white sand is a knockout, and you can't get better oak trees than what we have at Silverado." - that's a quote from the guy who did the redesign.




    Imagine that.... a FIGJAM quote from Johnny Miller.. who would have thunk image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    LOL.
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  • exgolfproexgolfpro Members Posts: 776 ✭✭
    golfnhack wrote:

    exgolfpro wrote:


    Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.



    Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial



    Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake



    Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston




    ExgolfPro,





    Those are some eclectic groupings. I was wondering if you could put some perspective on the decision making process. Eg. Sawgrass with Pebble?










    My thoughts on that group of course are....bigger than life kind of courses where nature is the centerpiece. Maybe not quite as 'polished' as courses like Augusta, Bay Hill and the courses in the California desert like PGA West.
  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    exgolfpro wrote:

    golfnhack wrote:

    exgolfpro wrote:


    Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.



    Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial



    Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake



    Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston




    ExgolfPro,





    Those are some eclectic groupings. I was wondering if you could put some perspective on the decision making process. Eg. Sawgrass with Pebble?










    My thoughts on that group of course are....bigger than life kind of courses where nature is the centerpiece. Maybe not quite as 'polished' as courses like Augusta, Bay Hill and the courses in the California desert like PGA West.






    Thanks Ex,



    I am trying to get the course grouped more by likeness in terms of how they play, rather than they look though.
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    OK... here is the list so far







    Plantation Course at Kapalua

    Waialae CC

    PGA West (Palmer Course)

    PGA West (Nicklaus Course)

    La Quinta CC

    Torrey Pines (South Course)

    Torrey Pines (North Course)

    TPC Scottsdale

    Pebble Beach Golf Links Monterey Peninsula CC, Spyglass Hill GC

    Monterey Peninsula CC Pebble Beach Golf Links, Spyglass Hill GC

    Spyglass Hill GC Pebble Beach Golf Links, Monterey Peninsula CC

    Riviera CC Colonial CC, Harbour Town Golf Links

    PGA National Champion Course

    Trump Intrntl GC - Puerto Rico

    TPC Blue Monster at Doral

    Innisbrook Resort - Copperhead

    Bay Hill Club & Lodge

    Redstone GC Tournament Course

    TPC San Antonio

    Augusta National GC Muirfield Village GC, Glen Abbey GC, East Lake GC, Firestone CC (South Course)

    Harbour Town Golf Links Colonial CC, Riviera CC

    TPC Louisiana TPC Four Seasons Resort

    Quail Hollow Club

    TPC Sawgrass

    TPC Four Seasons Resort TPC Louisiana

    Colonial CC Harbour Town Golf Links, Riviera CC

    Muirfield Village GC Glen Abbey GC, East Lake GC, Firestone CC (South Course), Augusta National GC

    TPC Southwind

    Merion GC

    TPC River Highlands

    Congressional Country Club

    The Old White TPC

    TPC Deere Run

    Annandale GC

    Muirfield

    Glen Abbey GC Muirfield Village GC, East Lake GC, Firestone CC (South Course), Augusta National GC

    Firestone CC (South Course) Muirfield Village GC, Glen Abbey GC, East Lake GC, Augusta National GC

    Oak Hill CC

    Sedgefield Country Club East Lake GC

    Liberty National Golf Club

    TPC Boston

    Conway Farms Golf Club

    East Lake GC Muirfield Village GC, Glen Abbey GC, Firestone CC (South Course), Augusta National GC, Sedgefield Country Club

    Silverado CC (North)

    Sea Island Resort (Seaside)

    CC of Jackson

    Sheshan International GC

    El Camaleon GC

    Chambers Bay GC

    RTJ Trail (Grand National)

    Robert Trent Jones GC

    Whistling Straits

    Plainfield CC

    Conway Farms GC
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,862 ✭✭
    I absolutely agree with exgolfpro that Waialae and Riviera play similar.
  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,862 ✭✭
    I also think the Humana courses can be put together with TPC Scottsdale, though I have played TPC Scottsdale in many years.
  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    b.helts wrote:


    I absolutely agree with exgolfpro that Waialae and Riviera play similar.




    K will add it to the list. Thanks
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    b.helts..... Do you think one lumps Waialae with Riviera as well as Colonial and Harbour Town? Or just Waialae and Riviera? Or does Harbour Town and Colonial not belong with Riviera?
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    Colonial and Harbour town are known for having some of the smallest greens anywhere. Not sure how waialae compares, though Riviera's greens are more medium sized.
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  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,862 ✭✭
    I've never played Harbour Town or Colonial, so I'm not sure.
  • Stensons3WoodStensons3Wood In the Fairway Members Posts: 162
    I put CCC and Riviera together bc though the greens at CCC may be slightly smaller on average they were both built in the same era and they both use design elements other than sheer length ( trees, doglegs , tight fairways , huge bunkers) to make them very difficult.



    Harbor town has some of that but, it just feels different
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    NorthTexas wrote:


    I put CCC and Riviera together bc though the greens at CCC may be slightly smaller on average they were both built in the same era and they both use design elements other than sheer length ( trees, doglegs , tight fairways , huge bunkers) to make them very difficult.



    Harbor town has some of that but, it just feels different




    Though the setting is a bit different, I think Harbor Town could be grouped with them...The small greens, tree lined fairways, need to shape the ball both ways throughout the course. I have no issue with CCC, Riviera, and HT. Though I think you are right, HT has a different "feel." I have no clue about Waialea bc I've never played there...
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  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    I think you can get a good idea by looking at players who perform well at different courses. Phil plays well at ANGC and has won at Houston. Stric has won at colonial and Riv, same as Phil. Boo has won at colonial and Harbour.
    M2, maybe
    915 FD
    913 HD
    712u 3
    714 AP2 4-p
    SM5 53, 59
    Circa62
  • johnnydmanjohnnydman Members Posts: 152
    I disagree about Muirfield being similar to Firestone.



    Muirfield is sprawled out over hilly terrain, Firestone is compact and mostly flat.

    Muirfield (Nicklaus) is a young course compared to Firestone (RTJ).



    my .02
  • melomelo Members Posts: 2,174 ✭✭
    Would this be easier if you just listed some sub-categories and then grouped them from there...for example: courses where you can drive it anywhere (like augusta), large greens, small greens, lots of undulation, tons of sand/hazards, courses with large amounts of water in play, tight driving course, short, long, flat, hills, doglegs etc. As courses fall into multiple categories you can then group them.
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  • golfnhackgolfnhack Members Posts: 2,541 ✭✭
    melo wrote:


    Would this be easier if you just listed some sub-categories and then grouped them from there...for example: courses where you can drive it anywhere (like augusta), large greens, small greens, lots of undulation, tons of sand/hazards, courses with large amounts of water in play, tight driving course, short, long, flat, hills, doglegs etc. As courses fall into multiple categories you can then group them.




    Wish I could. Ideally I would love to group individual "like" holes on every golf course. But I know that is asking too much. For now, I just need to group courses.
    "Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
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