Is this a penalty?

[el_b00t]

> @2bGood said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @el_b00t said:

> > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> >

> > Yes. It wasn't accidental.

> > I reckon these videos are tongue in cheek though

>

> It was humour.

>

 

I figured as much.

[Sawgrass]

> @el_b00t said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > >

> > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> >

> > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> >

>

> Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

 

Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

[Halebopp]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @el_b00t said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > >

> > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > >

> > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > >

> >

> > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

>

> Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

 

I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > I sure wish there was a delete -button. Once you make an error there is no way you can rectify it.

>

> You can edit it

 

You don't say..?

 

As you can see I did edit my message by writing a single 'X' there but as it was a double message I could not remove it. I wish there was the possibility as on many forums there is.

[Newby]

I prefer 10.1d

[buckets on buckets]

> @antip said:

> > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

>

> There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

 

I remember these videos! Just didn’t put the 2 together that it was in response to the rules change...

[Sawgrass]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @el_b00t said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > > >

> > > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > > >

> > > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > > >

> > >

> > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> >

> > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

>

> I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

 

Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

[Halebopp]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

> >

> > I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

>

> Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

 

I don't have much beyond the definition of stroke and the cautiously optimistic thought I'll never need to give a ruling on such an incident. :)

[ebk]

New ruling announcement immediately made me think of T. C. Chen (1985)...

[Colin L]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @el_b00t said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > > > >

> > > > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> > >

> > > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

> >

> > I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

>

> Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

Any mileage in this?

Stroke at moving ball has the evident purpose of steering it in a particular direction.

Deliberate deflection is an attempt to prevent the ball from going in a particular direction.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @el_b00t said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > > > >

> > > > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> > >

> > > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

> >

> > I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

>

> Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

 

I don't think there is a super simple answer, case by case assessment required. That said, we can generally recognise when someone has made a stroke in the context of the position of the ball, location of obstacles etc - and those videos are clearly strokes IMO. An intentional deflection, on the other hand, is more likely simply steering a ball in motion one direction or another for nefarious purposes.

[antip]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @el_b00t said:

> > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> > > >

> > > > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

> > >

> > > I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

> >

> > Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

> Any mileage in this?

> Stroke at moving ball has the evident purpose of steering it in a particular direction.

> Deliberate deflection is an attempt to prevent the ball from going in a particular direction.

 

None.

[Colin L]

> @antip said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @el_b00t said:

> > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > > > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> > > > >

> > > > > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

> > > >

> > > > I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

> > >

> > > Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

> > Any mileage in this?

> > Stroke at moving ball has the evident purpose of steering it in a particular direction.

> > Deliberate deflection is an attempt to prevent the ball from going in a particular direction.

>

> None.

 

Much the same thing, really.

[Sawgrass]

The penalty for a 10.1d violation and an 11.2 violation are the same, but the place a ball is thereafter played from is different. I move that the rules be changed so that the place one plays from next is also consistent. Now all I have to do is to get into one of those meetings where such a motion might be heard . . .

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @el_b00t said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @"buckets on buckets" said:

> > > > > > > Great par! I do appreciate the rules change. Just to clarify, this has to be a normal stroke correct. If you make a deliberate attempt to hit it a second time out of air (would be very hard), that would be a penalty correct? Maybe too much of a hypothetical and even impossible...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There were a bunch of demonstrations of this technique a couple of months ago. See the Hannah Davies one in the linked page.

> > > > > > https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/watch-double-hit-golf-video-goes-viral-dj-brooks-break-rules

> > > > >

> > > > > And this one.... takes a lot of talent to do this...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Wouldn't that be two strokes though? They make contact to flop it up and then bring the club back and stroke again to hit around the tree...

> > >

> > > Ignoring the humor, it’s an 11.2 violation AND since the ball was not on the putting green nor would have otherwise come to rest on the putting green the ball must be dropped in a relief area referenced by an estimate of where the ball would have come to rest had it not been deliberately deflected. Kind of takes the fun out things . . .

> >

> > I have to disagree, the player made a stroke at a moving ball, rule 10.1d. In total there were 2 strokes and the general penalty for making a stroke at a moving ball, so 4 strokes in stroke play and the ball is played as it lies.

>

> Ahhh, perhaps you're right, thanks. It seems that making a stroke at a moving ball and deliberately delfecting a moving ball are two different animals, though there may be occasions when it's difficult to differentiate a deliberate delfection from a stroke, given that both have intent. Any comment on deciding which is which?

 

If the deflection is made with a club and the movement of that club matches the Definition of a Stroke then it is a stroke. Just as in the video.