Looking to make the JDM plunge...Need help

[MikeCartier]

Looking for a set of players cavity backs, several sets have caught my eye. I like the muscle cavity design that a lot of brands are incorporating where there is some extra meat behind the impact point, a la mizuno mp64. I have never hit let alone owned a set of JDMs but I have decided that I should find out for myself what the hoopla is all about. Have a couple of questions for the JDM aficionados out there..

 

1. I understand that the big reason why most go JDM is because of higher tolerances and "attention to detail". OK, is there any manufacturer or brand that has a history of having tighter or loser tolerances than the other? Anyone experienced that every iron they have ever ordered from Miura (lets say) were +/1 gram in weight, but Vega (lets say again) they found a few sets that were a couple of irons were +/- 2 grams or more off? Kind of hard to believe that everything on TSG is built by Hattori Hanzo !!

 

2. From my reading it seems there are 4 major JDM manufactures: Mizuno (does only their own designs), Miura (does only their own designs), Kyoei (does their own Zestaim and Vega designs, but builds for other designers), and Endo (does their own Epon, but builds for others). OK, this is what throws me for a curve... Conventional wisdom regarding boutique/hi-end/custom products is that the smaller operations have tighter tolerances than larger operations. Maybe not 100% of the time but most of the time. If I apply that to JDM golf, is it wrong to assume that Miura would have the higher tolerances since it is probably the smallest operation? If I had to make a guesstimate, I would probably rank from biggest to smallest is Endo, Kyoei, Mizuno, Miura.

 

3. Since Kyoei and Endo produce both their own designs as well as others, it would seem to me that there may be a little conflict of interest if they focus their "attention to detail" to other's design and not their own. For example, I understand that Endo makes Epon, Yamaha, and Tourstage. Any concern that Endo would make Epon a little better than the others, or is it understood that anything coming out of Endo japan are built to same tolerances? Perhaps grind and polish one a little more than the others?

 

4. The models I have been looking at are Miura 1007, Tourstage 709mc, Yamaha rmx tour cb, mizuno mp64, and vega vdc-01. Any thoughts or ranking of these?

 

I know that I have a lot of questions, but appreciate the insight WRXers!!

[jmvargas]

kudos to you on your research!!

i've owned a few jdm sets but have only based my quality opinions on feel and looks..

the jdm irons sets i've had were tourstage 201s, bridgestone j-36 and yamaha inpressX and their workmanship and feel were excellent....i have no idea how the tolerances were..

i've also had the tourstage viq driver and currently use a giga xf07 driver and a s-yard exelight 5-wood.....also excellent feel and workmanship----none of the paint/glue run-offs you see in other brands..

i also like that their shaft flexes and grips are geared more towards us asians--at least the ones i have tried..

i've always used the stock made-in-japan shafts in all these clubs and they're top notch too..

i only sold/traded them when i wanted to go to comforming equipment..

[Exhaloprez]

I have owned just about every major JDM irons set. The quality of workmanship and material is second to none. Unlike many of the US golf companies many JDM's do not restyle their irons every year...Miura, Epon and Vega are examples. For me I have a bent for soft feel and prefer Vegas. However, I really like Epons and Miuras but just not as much as Vega. Friends of mine feel put those three at the top of their lists but in a slightly different order.

I sincerely believe the additional increase in the purchase price of JDM clubs is worth the cost.

[idrive]

When it comes to tolerances of the clubs you've listed the Miura's are best. Yamaha's are last.

I'm talking about taking each head and weighing them individually.

2nd are the Vegas. Toustage and Mizuno are very similar.

[MizzyMan]

I own a set of CB-1007 Y-grinds, a set of 709 MC's, and a set of MP-64's. All fairly similar in appearance, size, and utility. But worlds away in feel. MP-64's are mushy soft; 709's are in between, neither soft nor firm but with good feedback in terms of exact spot of contact. Miuras are the most dense and solid feeling. All 3 would be a good choice if you're a pretty good iron player, with the Miuras being the least forgiving. On the Y-grinds, the sweet spot is moved a hair towards the heel as some of the cavity rim was removed at the toe. Don't get these if you miss more out towards the toe.

[tsupo]

i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.

[puresurfr]

I pretty much play every set under the sun...i have played quite a few Epons and TourStage and OnOff and Yamaha as well as a few other smaller brands like MOZ and Honma ( mainly all the old stuff with the 4 and 5 star shafts ) The old Honma stuff was very good, and the quality was top notch, in my mind nothing comes close in terms of workmanship and detail. In terms of domestic brands, I have definitely played everything that has come out. the glory days for these irons were the TM 300 forged Lehmans and the TM black forged MBs. Some of the domestic gear is pretty damn good these days, the Ping s55 and the AP2 714 . In terms of expensive, domestic can cost just as much if not more than JDM. The Macgregor handmade DW grinds were very very expensive, probably 2-3X the cost of miuraism.
*Haha, where am i going with this, I'm not quite sure ?? But i do know that whatever I have owned and played with, Tsupo has owned and played 5 times over with 6 different types of shafts. Ill trust his opinion on JDM for sure. My gamers right now are Epon AF302 in copper, so they must be decent cause i have about 40 sets collecting dust.

[Mob]

My Epons came with stickers on each head stating the standard or ideal weight for that head, then the actual weight of that particular head, to the tenth of a gram! Each head was within one gram of the stated standard.

[attachment=2065771:image.jpg][attachment=2065769:image.jpg][attachment=2065763:image.jpg]

[coops]

To the OP.... Your preference would match very well with Epon 302's... And as you can see above they can be ordered in a very wonderful copper-chrome plate finish.

Take the time so test and find the best shaft for you, and then get a set and use for 5+years....

here's a thread re copper chrome epons, you can see more pics of new and also how they look after years of use on the second page...

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/872436-copper-epon-af302-irons/page__hl__%20epon%20%20copper

[Oldplayer]

[quote name='Mob' timestamp='1392171538' post='8648827']
My Epons came with stickers on each head stating the standard or ideal weight for that head, then the actual weight of that particular head, to the tenth of a gram! Each head was within one gram of the stated standard.

[attachment=2065771:image.jpg][attachment=2065769:image.jpg][attachment=2065763:image.jpg]
[/quote]
My Epon 302's were the same. The guy who built them for me left the stickers with the head weights on for me to see. The tolerances were less than a gram. My builder said when he orders a set of heads from epon they pick all the heads to match each other so the incremental weights are as close as possible to where they should be.

[Snufles]

[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

My guy says your guy is full of poopy.

[Duffy19]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392179173' post='8649719']
[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

My guy says your guy is full of poopy.
[/quote]

So who is a good builder for Epon and Miura in Canada?

[FyteOn]

Just be aware that you are traveling down the slippery slope into the rabbit hole of JDM. I started with a Miura 56K a year ago just to get a taste. Forget heroin, this is the most addictive item out there. Now I have a 51Y, 56K, 60Y and a bag full of Miura 501s. They are, without a doubt, the purest clubs I've ever played and I've been playing at a relatively high level for a long time. To top it off I spend half the day staring at the drivers on TSG and trying to justify doing stupid &*^$ like buying Crazy shafts without demo'ing them.

Good luck. Don't say you weren't warned!

[Bill3508]

Yep its dangerous. Started with a Trpx driver and now have some 5 others plus 3 sets of irons, wedges, Golds putter on order, etc. Get ready.

[Snufles]

[quote name='Duffy19' timestamp='1392180024' post='8649837']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392179173' post='8649719']
[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

My guy says your guy is full of poopy.
[/quote]

So who is a good builder for Epon and Miura in Canada?
[/quote]

McMahon golf

ask for Gord

[Duffy19]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392245514' post='8655073']
[quote name='Duffy19' timestamp='1392180024' post='8649837']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392179173' post='8649719']
[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

My guy says your guy is full of poopy.
[/quote]

So who is a good builder for Epon and Miura in Canada?
[/quote]

McMahon golf

ask for Gord
[/quote]

I know Gord and Mke from way back. I was the one who got them into Miura years ago when I bought my first set of 201 from Asia and show it to them. I haven't seen his set up since he moved from Greenfield to the Dome.

[Snufles]

[quote name='Duffy19' timestamp='1392249336' post='8655531']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392245514' post='8655073']
[quote name='Duffy19' timestamp='1392180024' post='8649837']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392179173' post='8649719']
[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

My guy says your guy is full of poopy.
[/quote]

So who is a good builder for Epon and Miura in Canada?
[/quote]

McMahon golf

ask for Gord
[/quote]

I know Gord and Mke from way back. I was the one who got them into Miura years ago when I bought my first set of 201 from Asia and show it to them. I haven't seen his set up since he moved from Greenfield to the Dome.
[/quote]

It has been a while since I grabbed my set off him when he was at Greenfield. Super nice guy and I really should go and see him again soon. Thinking about some wedges...

[Duffy19]

[quote name='Bill3508' timestamp='1392230623' post='8653199']
Yep its dangerous. Started with a Trpx driver and now have some 5 others plus 3 sets of irons, wedges, Golds putter on order, etc. Get ready.
[/quote]

I see that the trpx is still In the bag. Personally don't like the driver. Had the S then the D for a few weeks but just couldn't get use to the sound and feel of the head. Sold both together with the Toule shaft and gone back to the Maxima with Crazy LY.

[Bill3508]

Actually playing a Jbeam 435r with Crazy black 46 shaft currently. The Trpx is easy to hit and fairly long. Good overall. 435 likes to punish me sometimes but its fun to use.

[freehb]

Start saving your money, kissing your wife's a$$ and the kids better get scholarships to college. Do yourself a favor and start w epon. There is tons of amazing JDM designs w high manufacturing quality....let the quickening begin!

[drugazi]

Just get Mizzys if it's your first set. #1 set on tour for eight years before all the big contracts and the cheapest of what you've listed.

[MJisGOAT]

No better "players" cb than the 501 IMO. Better bring the game though, I think the cobra amp cell pro and mp 69's are more forgiving than the 501's.

[Doublebuck]

[quote name='Duffy19' timestamp='1392180024' post='8649837']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392179173' post='8649719']
[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

My guy says your guy is full of poopy.
[/quote]

So who is a good builder for Epon and Miura in Canada?
[/quote]

Erickson's, Rey is the owner.

[K2_2]

[quote name='puresurfr' timestamp='1392169871' post='8648603']
I pretty much play every set under the sun...i have played quite a few Epons and TourStage and OnOff and Yamaha as well as a few other smaller brands like MOZ and Honma ( mainly all the old stuff with the 4 and 5 star shafts ) The old Honma stuff was very good, and the quality was top notch, in my mind nothing comes close in terms of workmanship and detail. In terms of domestic brands, I have definitely played everything that has come out. the glory days for these irons were the TM 300 forged Lehmans and the TM black forged MBs. Some of the domestic gear is pretty damn good these days, the Ping s55 and the AP2 714 . In terms of expensive, domestic can cost just as much if not more than JDM. [b]The Macgregor handmade DW grinds were very very expensive, probably 2-3X the cost of miuraism[/b].
*Haha, where am i going with this, I'm not quite sure ?? But i do know that whatever I have owned and played with, Tsupo has owned and played 5 times over with 6 different types of shafts. Ill trust his opinion on JDM for sure. My gamers right now are Epon AF302 in copper, so they must be decent cause i have about 40 sets collecting dust.
[/quote]

Ahh Macgregor's custom program was a dream of mine back in the day. A set of irons were actually around the same price as something from Miuraism. The whole package involved a trip to their professional/staff fitting center in Georgia and entire day setting up your entire bag (driver to wedges) with different members of Macgregor's team. Don White was involved in helping you to select the iron and wedge designs and would then apply a grind to them based on your swing, shot pattern, divots, and typical playing conditions.

[Rohann]

[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1392167493' post='8648303']
i get every single one of my iron heads individually weighed, and ive never been told by my clubuilder that one set is "significantlly" out.

he does say however.......... and this guy builds more clubs that u cud possibly imagine........
that EPON is the best hes seen by a long way . he doesnt give a hoot about how it feels hs goes purely on his numbers and epon is unquestionably the tightest .. hes seen a few of my sets that are out by a cpl of grams here or there., but never epon.

when i ask what is his persoanal ranking he says epon is tops then endo. then the others.
[/quote]

I also agree from a builders perspective the Epons are very good.

[dunn]

to be honest a couple of grams either way wouldnt bother me, surely not worth thousands of dollars, mizuno is probably best bang for buck....i am not a tour pro and wouldnt notice it, plus since i build my own clubs i could easily compensate to get them where i want.....I know my shots and scores wont change because of the weight of a dollar bill....I do want to try a set of epons though one day, I have hit miuras and to me they were whateves....nothing special, but i know some really love em and thats cool......not sure what hndcp level that it makes a difference but i have shot par few times and do 70's consistently and i have far more issues with my swing than the clubs.....some days my clubs feel like an extension of my hands and others it feels like i never played so i know its more me than anything....so is it just an obsession with perfection or are you guys shootin ridiculous numbers and just very sensitive?

[Snufles]

[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1402170891' post='9449565']
to be honest a couple of grams either way wouldnt bother me, surely not worth thousands of dollars, mizuno is probably best bang for buck....i am not a tour pro and wouldnt notice it, plus since i build my own clubs i could easily compensate to get them where i want.....I know my shots and scores wont change because of the weight of a dollar bill....I do want to try a set of epons though one day, I have hit miuras and to me they were whateves....nothing special, but i know some really love em and thats cool......not sure what hndcp level that it makes a difference but i have shot par few times and do 70's consistently and i have far more issues with my swing than the clubs.....some days my clubs feel like an extension of my hands and others it feels like i never played so i know its more me than anything....so is it just an obsession with perfection or are you guys shootin ridiculous numbers and just very sensitive?
[/quote]

Pretty much just out for the cool factor.

[someon3]

I have a love affair with 64's.

[csrjr]

So what finally happened here?
B
tw, I went and got a set of Miura PP9003 straight necks from Grod at McMahon and the fitting has had plenty of attention to detail. I also got a set of CB 501's with a slightly heavier shaft (I play Aerotech 80s in the PPs and 95 grams in the 501s). Both sets perfectly built and adjusted for flight and gap.

I've owned 5 or 6 sets of Mizunos and Miura just far exceeds any so far (MP64 is a close runner, but too much as a gamer for me). The feel is tough to go back on...

[MikeCartier]

Sorry about that csrjr, I guess I should have re-posted what the final outcome was.... I feel like LeBron with "the decision"

I ended up with tourstage 709mc with modus120s. Got 3-pw with 52 & 58 matching x-wedges, paid $1482 exactly... shipped from japan. Used rakuten...no problems. Reading some of the emails even after using the translation software took a little imagination, but other than that I feel like they were on par with any experience I have had with say amazon. From what I have read $1480 for 10 clubs is on the low side compared to what some pay for 10 miuras or epon... maybe tourstage is considered on the low-end side of jdm. Im not sure.

I wish I could have found a mp64 with the same specs, shaft, etc to do a true comparison, but I did spend some time with a mp64 with stock s300 and I can honestly say when flushed I could not say that one felt better than the other, both butter. There is a little difference in sound if that makes sense. 709mc produced a slightly higher-pitched "tick" sound and the mp64 was slightly lower pitch "tock" sound, but that goes to your preference and what you like. I can say that I found no noticeable differences in feel or performance.... now lets talk about aesthetics and ROI.

On the day I ordered my tourstages I went on several websites to see what a set of 3-pw mp-64s and two mpt4 wedges would cost delivered to my door. Off the shelf/non-custom mizunos were only like $200 cheaper. Factor in the $ difference between usdm s300 and jdm modus120s, I kind of feel like the mizunos are overpriced as opposed to the popular statement that jdm is overpriced... hell I was one of them and to be painfully honest I assumed that after 3 months of playing them I would be saying they are meh and not worth the extra $. How much is a set of 3-pw ap1s with 2 vokey wedges run these days...

I have to say that in hands, side by side, the visual differences are glaring. I almost feel that I would love for mizuno to forge the blanks and have bridgestone/endo do the finishing. From the satin finish, to the mirror edge outline, the textured finish on the cavity...even the stamping, ferrel, and paint used for the fill seemed a little more "hi-end". That, along with the knowledge that I most likely will not be seeing anyone else in my walk-on group with the same set... makes the $200-300 difference worth it. If it was say $500 difference in price or up... I would say to anyone standing on the diving board thinking about making the plunge to not do it, but for now I would recommend to anyone who is thinking about driving to the next golfsmith to get a brand new set of cobra irons and wedges to think again.

Just my 2cent if anyone cares