DJ Watts' Swing Principles/Philosophy

[thegooddoctor]

this has taken a turn for the worse.

I applaud DJ for trying to improve himself and his game without injury, however he did not comment on my very lengthy post that described why his current swing is harder on his back than a so called "modern swing" and cowpie is now arguing that DJ's swing is better for joints and ligaments?!@?

The golf swing is an unnatural motion, people who do it often have specific injuries period. It's very similar to pitchers, their arms get hurt because of the motion required. Are there certain motions that do that more than normal, (yes ie the upside down "W" with pitchers that leads to tommy john surgery). Amongst golfers I do not see any pattern to form (modern versus classic versus this versus that) that leads to a specific injury. I am not trying to pill on, but don't like it when people make claims that are not backed up by facts.

Do I think DJ can hit the the ball hard ? Yes

Do I think he can hit a 220 yd 6 iron? Sometimes

Do I think his swing is mechanically sound to minimize injury and holdup under pressure? No, but neither is mine (although I do not have a for pay website that I am promoting)

[bph7]

[quote name='thegooddoctor' timestamp='1398807939' post='9198441']
this has taken a turn for the worse.

[/quote]

Uhh, have you seen his other threads? Compared to them, even the latest stuff on this thread is going MUCH MUCH better than any other thread of DJ's.

[midweston]

Just commenting to keep up with this thread. Carry on!

[Chief Cowpie]

For thegooddoctor:

http://www.waxgolf.com/fall-back-vs-reverse-c/

[no where to look]

the good doctor wrote:
The golf swing is an unnatural motion, people who do it often have specific injuries period. It's very similar to pitchers, their arms get hurt because of the motion required. Are there certain motions that do that more than normal, (yes ie the upside down "W" with pitchers that leads to tommy john surgery). Amongst golfers I do not see any pattern to form (modern versus classic versus this versus that) that leads to a specific injury. I am not trying to pill on, but don't like it when people make claims that are not backed up by facts.


GD,

Nolan Ryan played for 27 years.

Do you see what is different in his delivery, to others who suffered career shortening injury?



[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQgvr8ygb-U"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQgvr8ygb-U[/url]

[Chief Cowpie]

Of course the golf swing is more like an underarm throw so let's take a look at Ty Stoflet's mechanics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWK_AnfuYYM

[DJ Watts]

Of course the golf swing is more like an underarm throw so let's take a look at Ty Stoflet's mechanics.

 

 

Chief,

 

I agree with that...

 

[thegooddoctor]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1398810672' post='9198809']
For thegooddoctor:

[url="http://www.waxgolf.com/fall-back-vs-reverse-c/"]http://www.waxgolf.c...k-vs-reverse-c/[/url]
[/quote]

I read the entire thread you linked to, there is nothing there that is evidence at all. I posted what is actually happening with the muscles with DJs action versus swing that did not extend early instead of showing pictures and saying that must be bad for the back. I'm sorry but that link adds nothing except for a 2-d mechinical drawing that does not even correctly portray what happens in a 3 d swing.
#notconvinced

[thegooddoctor]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1398810755' post='9198813']
the good doctor wrote:
The golf swing is an unnatural motion, people who do it often have specific injuries period. It's very similar to pitchers, their arms get hurt because of the motion required. Are there certain motions that do that more than normal, (yes ie the upside down "W" with pitchers that leads to tommy john surgery). Amongst golfers I do not see any pattern to form (modern versus classic versus this versus that) that leads to a specific injury. I am not trying to pill on, but don't like it when people make claims that are not backed up by facts.


GD,

Nolan Ryan played for 27 years.

Do you see what is different in his delivery, to others who suffered career shortening injury?



[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQgvr8ygb-U"]https://www.youtube....h?v=YQgvr8ygb[/url]
[/quote]

I do not, just like I don't see any motion in any particular golfers swing that leads to a particular injury. Pulling a single name proves nothing, if scientific fact was based on case reports then we would still be blood letting as a treatment for sickness.

#stillnotconvinced

[thegooddoctor]

Of course the golf swing is more like an underarm throw so let's take a look at Ty Stoflet's mechanics.

 

 

Chief,

 

I agree with that...

 

Of course the golf swing is more like an underarm throw so let's take a look at Ty Stoflet's mechanics.

 

 

These action are not even close to the same. The action DJ shows is side arm not underarm. What does pitching have to do with golf swing other than to serve as an example of a different repetitive movement? Misdirection instead of answering the questions asked

[thegooddoctor]

BTW,
The Drill DJ is showing is a release drill that many modern golf instructors use, some people would say that is promotes a "flip" release however

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='thegooddoctor' timestamp='1398816978' post='9199587']
BTW,
The Drill DJ is showing is a release drill that many modern golf instructors use, some people would say that is promotes a "flip" release however
[/quote]

Hi thegooddoctor,

It's only a flip if the body pivot stalls. When the pivot is a motion from the top to the finish, it promotes crushing the ball.

Best,

DJ

[thegooddoctor]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1398810672' post='9198809']
For thegooddoctor:

[url="http://www.waxgolf.com/fall-back-vs-reverse-c/"]http://www.waxgolf.c...k-vs-reverse-c/[/url]
[/quote]

So the whole post is about letting the trailing foot not achor at impact because that's what causes back problems


Adam Scott (poster child of the "modern" butch harmon swing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfxe4cjihVM

Anthony Kim (who you have blasted for his action, heel is clearly elevated at impact)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgcFnudwW-E

Hunter Mahan (who is consider one of the best drivers on tour and has little lateral movement heel definitely elevated at impact)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LvA8Rna4DQ

And of course Phil Mickelson (who I love, but you have used as the poster child for the swing you promote), heel barely off the ground if at all,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_gsJmFwH3o

So basically the exact opposite results than you would expect given that this action is the cause of all that 's bad with modern golf and all that's great with your swing?

I submit again, DJ your swing is very good, but your understanding of why is not correct, you could relieve even more stress on your back by minimizing your early extension (from coming into the ball to steep) and likely increase your accuracy as well

[no where to look]

I do not, just like I don't see any motion in any particular golfers swing that leads to a particular injury. Pulling a single name proves nothing, if scientific fact was based on case reports then we would still be blood letting as a treatment for sickness.


I thought the doctor could explain what baseball pitchers do wrong to injure themselves.
. obviously not.

Nolan Ryan turned his torso: hips and sternum together. he doesn't leverage, coil or stress his spine.
he turns and uses his scapula to create leverage.
Just as Ben Hogan and Moe Norman turned, and didn't coil, IMO

[thegooddoctor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlcZ7wKzF9E

After I quick search the best model for your action is Mr Singh, who has had famous battles with back and arms injuries. To be successful with this motion your timing must be perfect and your forearms must be very strong, and as I said before it puts more stress on the back than the "modern" move because of the quick and precise timing of flexion then extension that is required to hit the ball and not the earth

[thegooddoctor]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1398818896' post='9199889']
I do not, just like I don't see any motion in any particular golfers swing that leads to a particular injury. Pulling a single name proves nothing, if scientific fact was based on case reports then we would still be blood letting as a treatment for sickness.


I thought the doctor could explain what baseball pitchers do wrong to injure themselves.
. obviously not.

Nolan Ryan turned his torso: hips and sternum together. he doesn't leverage, coil or stress his spine.
he turns and uses his scapula to create leverage.
Just as Ben Hogan and Moe Norman turned, and didn't coil, IMO
[/quote]

6’ 2”
● 195 lbs
● Threw 62% fastballs, 23% curv
eballs, and 24% change-ups.
● Injuries...
Ž Injured tendon in 1986.
Ž Elbow surgery (August 23, 1975).
Ž Injuries during 1978 season.
[b]Ž Tendon “popped” in 1967. [/b]
[b] Forced to take entire season off. [/b]
● Started conditioning with weights in 1972.
Ž Paid particular attention to abdominal strength.
Thought of his abdomen like the transmission of a car.
□ Legs and butt = Engine.
□ Shoulders and arm = Wheels.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibr
ary/ballplayers/R/Ryan_Nolan.stm

Comments About Nolan Ryan’s
Pitching Motion
And Mechanics
● Minimal reverse-rotation of shoulders.
● Level head throughout.
● Appears to pronate sooner than most.
● Doesn’t show the ball to CF.

I bolded the part that's important

[thegooddoctor]

And for good measure, Nolan Ryan Is consider to have a VERY rotary action with separation between upper and lower body, the main difference between him and the injury riddled Mark Prior is the "reverse W" that I spoke about earlier.

Taken from ChrisOleary.com (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/PitchingMechanics101/Essays/MarkPriorPitchingMechanics_ADifferentPerspective.html)
[color=#000000][size=2]
"If you compare the two clips, you will see that Mark Prior and Nolan Ryan have lower body actions that are relatively similar; while their leg lifts are different, they both have a fairly linear move toward the plate with their GS feet. What is different about the two clips is their arm action. Mark Prior and Nolan Ryan both break their hands in similar places and in similar ways. The difference is that after breaking his hands Mark Prior breaks his elbows vertically while Nolan Ryan breaks his elbows more horizontally back toward First Base. As a result, by Frame 28/10 Mark Prior's PAS elbow is above and behind the level of his shoulders while Nolan Ryan's PAS elbow is behind his shoulders but significantly lower. More importantly, [b]by Frame 30/14 Nolan Ryan's PAS elbow has dropped to[u]below[/u] the level of his shoulders while Mark Prior's PAS elbow has stayed [u]above[/u] the level of his shoulders[/b]. As with Greg Maddux, I think this is a significant difference."[/size][/color]


Please enough BS about baseball action which I do not think you understand

[oikos1]

[quote name='thegooddoctor' timestamp='1398807939' post='9198441']
this has taken a turn for the worse.

I applaud DJ for trying to improve himself and his game without injury, however he did not comment on my very lengthy post that described why his current swing is harder on his back than a so called "modern swing" and cowpie is now arguing that DJ's swing is better for joints and ligaments?!@?

[b]The golf swing is an unnatural motion, people who do it often have specific injuries period.[/b] It's very similar to pitchers, their arms get hurt because of the motion required. Are there certain motions that do that more than normal, (yes ie the upside down "W" with pitchers that leads to tommy john surgery). Amongst golfers I do not see any pattern to form (modern versus classic versus this versus that) that leads to a specific injury. I am not trying to pill on, but don't like it when people make claims that are not backed up by facts.

Do I think DJ can hit the the ball hard ? Yes

Do I think he can hit a 220 yd 6 iron? Sometimes

Do I think his swing is mechanically sound to minimize injury and holdup under pressure? No, but neither is mine (although I do not have a for pay website that I am promoting)
[/quote]

Totally agree with the golf swing as an unnatural motion. Is there an example of any golfer over the age of 40 who hasn't had a golf related injury? I just don't think there is any method that is injury free...

This might be the one guy to listen to:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-09/10-rules-from-gary-player

[Chief Cowpie]

You guys can say so many things like "I don't see it how it would eliminate joint damage" ... etc but its like trying to describe the taste of honey to someone whose never had sweets. You just have to take of the lid and taste. And once you see it, you will recognize your blindness.

[no where to look]

And for good measure, Nolan Ryan Is consider to have a VERY rotary action with separation between upper and lower body, the main difference between him and the injury riddled Mark Prior is the "reverse W" that I spoke about earlier.


your clip, direct quote:

{"If you compare the two clips, you will see that Mark Prior and Nolan Ryan have lower body actions that are relatively similar; while their leg lifts are different, they both have a fairly linear move toward the plate with their GS feet."

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='thegooddoctor' timestamp='1398819490' post='9199969']
And for good measure, Nolan Ryan Is consider to have a VERY rotary action with separation between upper and lower body, the main difference between him and the injury riddled Mark Prior is the "reverse W" that I spoke about earlier.

Taken from ChrisOleary.com ([url="http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/PitchingMechanics101/Essays/MarkPriorPitchingMechanics_ADifferentPerspective.html"]http://www.chrisolea...erspective.html[/url])

[color=#000000][size=2]"If you compare the two clips, you will see that Mark Prior and Nolan Ryan have lower body actions that are relatively similar; while their leg lifts are different, they both have a fairly linear move toward the plate with their GS feet. What is different about the two clips is their arm action. Mark Prior and Nolan Ryan both break their hands in similar places and in similar ways. The difference is that after breaking his hands Mark Prior breaks his elbows vertically while Nolan Ryan breaks his elbows more horizontally back toward First Base. As a result, by Frame 28/10 Mark Prior's PAS elbow is above and behind the level of his shoulders while Nolan Ryan's PAS elbow is behind his shoulders but significantly lower. More importantly, [b]by Frame 30/14 Nolan Ryan's PAS elbow has dropped to[u]below[/u] the level of his shoulders while Mark Prior's PAS elbow has stayed [u]above[/u] the level of his shoulders[/b]. As with Greg Maddux, I think this is a significant difference."[/size][/color]


Please enough BS about baseball action which I do not think you understand
[/quote]

If you look at Ryan's early years with the Mets, his arm is a little later in its throw as if being slung by the body whereas in the mature Ryan, it is much tighter and a releases from the body and so an insight into his early career injuries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKk0vBENgdk

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1398820748' post='9200177']
You guys can say so many things like "I don't see it how it would eliminate joint damage" ... etc but its like trying to describe the taste of honey to someone whose never had sweets. You just have to take of the lid and taste. And once you see it, you will recognize your blindness.
[/quote]

I don't know what LSD tastes like, guess I'll always be blind.

[midweston]

Chief, did you join up just to be dj's cheerleader? Do you subscribe to his stuff? Im genuinely am curious. Being a former college pitcher, i think some people are just destined for injury, some arent. Both motions require torque, high speeds and unnatural motions. Really hard on the body, Especially when performed over and over.

[thegooddoctor]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1398820748' post='9200177']
You guys can say so many things like "I don't see it how it would eliminate joint damage" ... etc but its like trying to describe the taste of honey to someone whose never had sweets. You just have to take of the lid and taste. And once you see it, you will recognize your blindness.
[/quote]

what does this mean?? it's like a parent saying because I said so

[lv_2_hack]

DJ I have a serious question that I'd love for you to answer.

We all know you have a serious/extreme case of scoliosis. Why then do you seem to try and get people on here and on your site to swing similarly to you? Maybe you don't do that but I find it odd you have so many examples of YOUR swing when your spine is quite jacked up. You said yourself that if your spine wasn't so messed up, you would be swinging much differently.

[mattwood]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1398810672' post='9198809']
For thegooddoctor:

[url="http://www.waxgolf.com/fall-back-vs-reverse-c/"]http://www.waxgolf.c...k-vs-reverse-c/[/url]
[/quote]
From that webpage: "Even better – stop listening to people who have no idea what they’re talking about, which would unfortunately mean every modern golf swing instructor – this is how you got to this mess in your swing to begin with."

To be honest I find that to be a very arrogant statement. That somehow every modern golf instructor, some guys who have made it their life's work to learn and teach golf, are all wrong and have no idea what they are talking about. Yet DJ, a guy who has a webpage, somehow has it all figured out. And then you talk about the hang back being a natural motion when it is nothing more than a compensation to a steep downswing so that you don't stick the club in the ground. I call B.S. My experience is that guys that really can don't have to talk about themselves so much and put others down in the process.

[thegooddoctor]

And still no response to the golf swings I posted and the swing comparisons made, instead arguments on pitching mechanics

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='thegooddoctor' timestamp='1398824754' post='9200769']
And still no response to the golf swings I posted and the swing comparisons made, instead arguments on pitching mechanics
[/quote]

Good luck. DJ has had a tendency in the past to pick and choose his battles.

[Hoot151]

[quote name='mattwood' timestamp='1398823058' post='9200531']
[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1398810672' post='9198809']
For thegooddoctor:

[url="http://www.waxgolf.com/fall-back-vs-reverse-c/"]http://www.waxgolf.c...k-vs-reverse-c/[/url]
[/quote]
From that webpage: "Even better – stop listening to people who have no idea what they’re talking about, which would unfortunately mean every modern golf swing instructor – this is how you got to this mess in your swing to begin with."

[/quote]

Wow.

[limcauco]

Dj, isn't more hip turn in downswing for those with higher hands on top? Less hip turn for lower hands on top?

If you have high hands and have less hip turn, would stress back too much bec back would be bunched up bec you can't turn hips immediately to get it out of the way bec hands needs to get lower first.

If you have low hands on top, you need to or you can get the hips out of the way immediately.

But I think not everybody can have low hands on top though. Only the lucky few, I guess.