DJ Watts' Swing Principles/Philosophy

[bph7]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1397833792' post='9118865']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1397833639' post='9118845']
Upright does not matter. Steep matters, you can get your hands up and still shallow on the way down without violating animals.
[/quote]

This sounds like an abs croney.. All I ever read is about how bad a steep intention is to them. Sorry for the late add on, tea was boiling

Regards
Craig Foster III
[/quote]

Peterich (and yes, we all know it's you. An old youtube of Peterich hitting balls was posted, and once someone asked if it was you, the video was immediately made private. You can (and will) lie to deny this, but no one believes you and you aren't gonna be able to explain that as a coincidence):

Not being steep on the downswing is certainly not only an ABS thing. It's actually a thing that almost every really good player does. Why would you ever want a steeper AOA as long as you could keep lowpoint stable in front of the ball? Shallow generally produces more compression and consistency.

[ej002]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1397833792' post='9118865']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1397833639' post='9118845']
Upright does not matter. Steep matters, you can get your hands up and still shallow on the way down without violating animals.
[/quote]

This sounds like an abs croney.. All I ever read is about how bad a steep intention is to them. Sorry for the late add on, tea was boiling

Regards
Craig Foster III
[/quote]

ROFL... Read the brad hughes thread, that will let you know my opinion of ABS. Steep isn't good. Steep is different than being on plane with an upright plane.

[DJ Watts]

Hey friends!

How's this for a great afternoon? I went to my facility to hit some balls, noticed the executive course was now open and decided to play 9 holes before going home.

Out on the course, I was approached by a gentleman who apparently has watched me hitting balls since the range opened. He offered to pay my green fees any time I want to play with him and give him some pointers, on some courses that would be out of my price range to play casually.

When I hit a high, fading 7 iron to the one hole that was 181 to the flag, he dumped about five balls on the tee deck and said,[i] "Do that again..."[/i] Then he handed me his 7 iron [i](he has newer clubs, a nice set of TaylorMade somethings)[/i] and I hit a couple with his.

Also asked if I was into tournament golf. I told him I'm going to dabble in that this year and apparently he has connections for more than green fees. Balls, equipment - am I glad I decided to play a few holes in the rain before heading home!

I think it's going to be a very, very good year.

Best,

DJ

[bph7]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397848051' post='9120663']
Hey friends!

How's this for a great afternoon? I went to my facility to hit some balls, noticed the executive course was now open and decided to play 9 holes before going home.

Out on the course, I was approached by a gentleman who apparently has watched me hitting balls since the range opened. He offered to pay my green fees any time I want to play with him and give him some pointers, on some courses that would be out of my price range to play casually.

When I hit a high, fading 7 iron to the one hole that was 181 to the flag, he dumped about five balls on the tee deck and said,[i] "Do that again..."[/i] Then he handed me his 7 iron [i](he has newer clubs, a nice set of TaylorMade somethings)[/i] and I hit a couple with his.

Also asked if I was into tournament golf. I told him I'm going to dabble in that this year and apparently he has connections for more than green fees. Balls, equipment - am I glad I decided to play a few holes in the rain before heading home!

I think it's going to be a very, very good year.

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

Sounds like a nice deal DJ!

[no where to look]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1397833792' post='9118865']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1397833639' post='9118845']
Upright does not matter. Steep matters, you can get your hands up and still shallow on the way down without violating animals.
[/quote]

This sounds like an abs croney.. All I ever read is about how bad a steep intention is to them. Sorry for the late add on, tea was boiling

Regards
Craig Foster III
[/quote]

Craig

Steep is good...
for tea.

[PingG10guy]

lol people like you are so motivational to the golfwrx community. Doing so many crazy things in your swing that are not advisable and failing to understand simple biomechanics...then actually posting like you think you can climb the ladder.

For me I know I can make things happen and I understand "it" so seeing your posts are always an inspiration to the journey. Thanks

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1397853925' post='9121181']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397848051' post='9120663']
Hey friends!

How's this for a great afternoon? I went to my facility to hit some balls, noticed the executive course was now open and decided to play 9 holes before going home.

Out on the course, I was approached by a gentleman who apparently has watched me hitting balls since the range opened. He offered to pay my green fees any time I want to play with him and give him some pointers, on some courses that would be out of my price range to play casually.

When I hit a high, fading 7 iron to the one hole that was 181 to the flag, he dumped about five balls on the tee deck and said,[i] "Do that again..."[/i] Then he handed me his 7 iron [i](he has newer clubs, a nice set of TaylorMade somethings)[/i] and I hit a couple with his.

Also asked if I was into tournament golf. I told him I'm going to dabble in that this year and apparently he has connections for more than green fees. Balls, equipment - am I glad I decided to play a few holes in the rain before heading home!

I think it's going to be a very, very good year.

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

Sounds like a nice deal DJ!
[/quote]

I ain't complaining, bph7! I try to keep a low profile where I practice [i](people tend to think you're crazy when you set a camera up and start talking to it)[/i], but there's no place to hide when we're on mats in front of the shop - I don't think I'll ever get used to people approaching me out of the blue to talk to me about my swing and how to hit balls like I do, but it's a nice problem to have if it is one.

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1397855240' post='9121289']
lol people like you are so motivational to the golfwrx community. Doing so many crazy things in your swing that are not advisable and failing to understand simple biomechanics...then actually posting like you think you can climb the ladder.

For me I know I can make things happen and I understand "it" so seeing your posts are always an inspiration to the journey. Thanks
[/quote]

Have a great one, Ping!

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ

[lee36328]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397848051' post='9120663']
Hey friends!

How's this for a great afternoon? I went to my facility to hit some balls, noticed the executive course was now open and decided to play 9 holes before going home.

Out on the course, I was approached by a gentleman who apparently has watched me hitting balls since the range opened. He offered to pay my green fees any time I want to play with him and give him some pointers, on some courses that would be out of my price range to play casually.

When I hit a high, fading 7 iron to the one hole that was 181 to the flag, he dumped about five balls on the tee deck and said,[i] "Do that again..."[/i] Then he handed me his 7 iron [i](he has newer clubs, a nice set of TaylorMade somethings)[/i] and I hit a couple with his.

Also asked if I was into tournament golf. I told him I'm going to dabble in that this year and apparently he has connections for more than green fees. Balls, equipment - am I glad I decided to play a few holes in the rain before heading home!

I think it's going to be a very, very good year.

Best,

DJ
[/quote]
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

Very pleased to hear you are getting noticed, and offered sponsorship, from the result of your dedication, passion, and hard work.

Where the ball goes, and how consistently it goes there, per your will, is the heart of the matter, as you say.

The ball may sit on the ground, but it doesn't lie.

Keep it up, and keep us posted! [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[virtuoso]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

D J , I think that's good advice for guys that are super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls.

Are you one of those guys?

[Lefthook]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

The ball cares what the swing looks like. Not on every shot, for great players perhaps not on every round.... And some champions can play 4 round tournaments when the ball doesn't care.

But sooner or later it cares even at the highest level. It shows up as consistency in ball striking from week to week and year to year.

For us hackers it cares several times each round.

The only place where the ball doesn't seem to care is on the driving range.

[Darth Leverage]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

I like this post DJ and get what you are saying... My goal is not to make my swing perfect but to understand it, the pieces I need to be the best I can...

However for me that brief would include an efficient as motion as possible, because I believe it will stand up under pressure better. You won't really know your swing until you get under the gun, adrenalin pacing through your veins and hands quaking. At that point the swing will care, flaws that can be masked under normal conditions will rear their ugly head eg Greg Norman 86 masters shot on eighteen

Another goal would also be to ensure I have a one-way, reliable miss

[Darth Leverage]

The advantage you have is a un shaking belief in your action. It definitely breeds essential confidence and trust

[borker]

DJ,

I am one who actually purchased your first ebook years ago, back when you were all about Mike Austin, and I was a naive newbie impressed with 350+ yard drives. You always have spoken your mind in your blog and never feared to tell what you thought was wrong with any pro's swing. Very polite to me in a few emails I asked questions as well. So thanks.

BUT I think over time this sort of "all-knowing" attitude got to me. You had all the answers to why pro's were short hitters or their swings sucked. And like a lot of other swing gurus on the net, you bandwagon jump onto pro's who win and attribute it to things they are doing in their swing you agree with. Seeing only what you want to see AFTER the fact.

Like how for years Henrik Stenson was not ever mentioned by you but all of a sudden late last year he has a "perfect MCS swing". You even admit how you have looked at his swing earlier in '09 but due to inconsistencies (meaning not near leaderboards or going through a historic FedEx cup stint) you didn't take notice. Weird how he has not changed his swing much from 09 and you never saw any MCS in it then but his same swing from 09 is perfect in 2013.

http://www.waxgolf.com/category/henrik-stenson/

Side-by-Side video of him shows very similar motions and the only thing different besides maybe some small video angles someone line-drawer may be able to detect, is that he has gotten stronger looking. Any changes he has made are small and most likely undetectable in video. Surely nothing major like stance, spine-tilt or setup triangle and the like that MCS says are optimal.

So now you bring this over to Golfwrx. Trying to promote and/or eventually sell something rather than discuss. You do know a lot about the swing and I am glad you decided to contribute here. But it just sounds to me, like your blog over the years, you know it all. You can hit a ball a long way so your research and ideas are right. They must be the most efficient being based on Austin, he was a genus... Every other swing method is wrong attitude.

Regardless, thanks for posting.

[capt.murphy]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

I'll give you credit for this one. best comment you've ever posted on golfwrx.

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='lee36328' timestamp='1397871118' post='9122611']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397848051' post='9120663']
Hey friends!

How's this for a great afternoon? I went to my facility to hit some balls, noticed the executive course was now open and decided to play 9 holes before going home.

Out on the course, I was approached by a gentleman who apparently has watched me hitting balls since the range opened. He offered to pay my green fees any time I want to play with him and give him some pointers, on some courses that would be out of my price range to play casually.

When I hit a high, fading 7 iron to the one hole that was 181 to the flag, he dumped about five balls on the tee deck and said,[i] "Do that again..."[/i] Then he handed me his 7 iron [i](he has newer clubs, a nice set of TaylorMade somethings)[/i] and I hit a couple with his.

Also asked if I was into tournament golf. I told him I'm going to dabble in that this year and apparently he has connections for more than green fees. Balls, equipment - am I glad I decided to play a few holes in the rain before heading home!

I think it's going to be a very, very good year.

Best,

DJ
[/quote]
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

Very pleased to hear you are getting noticed, and offered sponsorship, from the result of your dedication, passion, and hard work.

Where the ball goes, and how consistently it goes there, per your will, is the heart of the matter, as you say.

The ball may sit on the ground, but it doesn't lie.

Keep it up, and keep us posted!
[/quote]

lee36328,


Thank you, and I sure will!

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1397879837' post='9123295']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

D J , I think that's good advice for guys that are super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls.

Are you one of those guys?
[/quote]

Hi virtuoso,

It's actually the opposite - swingers like Adam Scott, Justin Rose - take your pick of any "great swing" you want to name from the PGA Tour - these guys work on their swings for a living. They have access to their personal swing coach, they work all day, all week, on their swings when they're not actually playing.

They're also the best in the world at what they do, which means they are far and away more coordinated than the average person. And with all that work, they still struggle at times.

What hope does the average person have to be able to swing the way they do?

Not much.

What are the chances anyone with whatever amount of talent being able to build a swing with which they can play golf by following fundamental principles rather than trying to copy the moves of another person?

I think that will bring greater success to the average person. If you're going to try to swing like a PGA Tour player with what you think is a [i]"great swing,"[/i] then you'd [u]better be[/u] [i]"super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls,"[/i] as you say. You're not going to build a swing like theirs part-time, very likely.

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1397881969' post='9123421']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

The ball cares what the swing looks like. Not on every shot, for great players perhaps not on every round.... And some champions can play 4 round tournaments when the ball doesn't care.

But sooner or later it cares even at the highest level. It shows up as consistency in ball striking from week to week and year to year.

For us hackers it cares several times each round.

The only place where the ball doesn't seem to care is on the driving range.
[/quote]

Lefthook,

That's the point I'm making. How successful is the "hacker" going to be building a swing like a Tour Player, when the Tour Player works on his swing 24/7?

That's the question.

Versus building a swing that follows basic principles?

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='borker' timestamp='1397905825' post='9123965']
DJ,

I am one who actually purchased your first ebook years ago, back when you were all about Mike Austin, and I was a naive newbie impressed with 350+ yard drives. You always have spoken your mind in your blog and never feared to tell what you thought was wrong with any pro's swing. Very polite to me in a few emails I asked questions as well. So thanks.

BUT I think over time this sort of "all-knowing" attitude got to me. You had all the answers to why pro's were short hitters or their swings sucked. And like a lot of other swing gurus on the net, you bandwagon jump onto pro's who win and attribute it to things they are doing in their swing you agree with. Seeing only what you want to see AFTER the fact.

Like how for years Henrik Stenson was not ever mentioned by you but all of a sudden late last year he has a "perfect MCS swing". You even admit how you have looked at his swing earlier in '09 but due to inconsistencies (meaning not near leaderboards or going through a historic FedEx cup stint) you didn't take notice. Weird how he has not changed his swing much from 09 and you never saw any MCS in it then but his same swing from 09 is perfect in 2013.

[url="http://www.waxgolf.com/category/henrik-stenson/"]http://www.waxgolf.c...henrik-stenson/[/url]

Side-by-Side video of him shows very similar motions and the only thing different besides maybe some small video angles someone line-drawer may be able to detect, is that he has gotten stronger looking. Any changes he has made are small and most likely undetectable in video. Surely nothing major like stance, spine-tilt or setup triangle and the like that MCS says are optimal.

So now you bring this over to Golfwrx. Trying to promote and/or eventually sell something rather than discuss. You do know a lot about the swing and I am glad you decided to contribute here. But it just sounds to me, like your blog over the years, you know it all. You can hit a ball a long way so your research and ideas are right. They must be the most efficient being based on Austin, he was a genus... Every other swing method is wrong attitude.

Regardless, thanks for posting.
[/quote]

borker,

You mention I have a blog. Try to find my mentioning I have a blog or that I'm selling anything here. Try to find me mentioning anything about my site, other than mentioning my writing about the swing. I will answer your point about Stenson, but you shouldn't accuse people of doing something they haven't done, as it will affect your own credibility.

As for Stenson, I never looked closely at his swing before he changed it, and his swing is not the same swing he had in '09. What I saw when he started winning was a few things that he had changed for the better. Unfortunately, in the months since his great run and my writing about his swing, he's again changed his swing in ways that are currently affecting his play. When I write about a swing, whatever I write has no relevance if the swing changes. That's not my fault.

Furthermore, if you actually still followed my blog, you'd know that I began to evolve my philosophy on the swing from copying other swingers' models (too difficult) to focusing on sound principles that you can see in a lot of great swingers, without trying to copy the actual swing.

Mike Weir made a big splash when he went over to Stack & Tilt. He helped sell it. He is no longer with that camp, and doesn't swing that way anymore. So, is he a liar or hypocrite if you ask him about the swing now and he isn't talking about S&T, or has he perhaps changed his views since then?

If you want to hold me to things I've written in the past however [i](I've been blogging for going on 7 years now)[/i] which I may have since evolved on, then you're free to do that, but it's dishonest to imply I'm selling anything here without providing any examples, which you won't find as you would have done so.

I am here to try to help people who read my postings here. I've never mentioned my site or posted a link to it, in fact when I post a video, I post it from a generic Youtube account and not my own site's account, aside from one example showing footage from a charity tournament in which I played, as I'm speaking to the people on this forum and my words can stand by themselves or fall.

People like you however keep posting my site links and then accusing me of selling something here. I think you should stop doing that, but it's a free world.

Thanks for the kind words aside from that.

Best,

DJ

PS - If my all-knowing attitude was what turned you off, then you may have a valid point. I believe something either strongly or not at all, and when I believe something, I believe I'm also right. If I find I was wrong or that there is a better way, I have no problem changing tracks. I won't keep saying something to avoid admitting I was wrong. I was wrong about Austin, for example - not that his swing isn't a great model, but not everyone can swing like that.

So you're correct that I can be unbearable at times, especially if you disagree with my views, but I've never said anything with a view to deceiving others, I always wrote what I believed. And I'm working on that [i]"all-knowing"[/i] part, as I don't believe anyone can know everything, not even close.

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='capt.murphy' timestamp='1397906541' post='9124001']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

I'll give you credit for this one. best comment you've ever posted on golfwrx.
[/quote]

capt.murphy,

In reverse order, thank you very much, and I'll take it and run!

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='MadForeIt' timestamp='1397899779' post='9123815']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397857016' post='9121437']
Stand-alone comment

Friends,

I would offer this advice to anyone who wants to build a [i]"perfect-looking"[/i] swing - the scorecard doesn't care what your swing looks like, it cares how many shots it takes you to get your ball into the hole.

If you follow basic principles, heck don't even look at mine, find your own - but when that ball is coming off the face crisply and purely, you will not care what your swing looks like.

So, you can spend your time trying to[i] look like a swinger[/i] you have in mind finding [i]this[/i] position or [i]that [/i]angle, or you can swing[i] your [/i]swing and build it using principles to make it your own.

All it takes is the confidence to try. But trust me, when you're hitting it pure, no one is going to say anything about how your swing looks - they'll be too busy watching your ball get small -[i] fast [/i]- after you've struck it!

Best,

DJ
[/quote]

I like this post DJ and get what you are saying... My goal is not to make my swing perfect but to understand it, the pieces I need to be the best I can...

However for me that brief would include an efficient as motion as possible, because I believe it will stand up under pressure better. You won't really know your swing until you get under the gun, adrenalin pacing through your veins and hands quaking. At that point the swing will care, flaws that can be masked under normal conditions will rear their ugly head eg Greg Norman 86 masters shot on eighteen

Another goal would also be to ensure I have a one-way, reliable miss
[/quote]

Madforelt,

I agree with you on simplicity. I played my first 9 holes of the year yesterday and found that my simplified approach was exactly what I needed. I [i]"missed"[/i] exactly one shot, a slightly fat iron, and on another shot, I somehow hit my GW 150 yards completely over the green on a 112 yard-to-the-flagstick shot.

Not to say the other shots were perfect, but they were on line and either a little short or long, but I couldn't expect to have my clubs dialed in on the first time out.

The fat shot, carelessness and a momentary lapse - but every other shot, I got over and had no moves to think of other than back and up, then down and through.

I've got a long way to go before I even think of teeing it up in a competition, but I'd say I went out those 9 holes on a generic basis much better than I have in the past. Keeping it simple and following basic principles, I'm still swinging much the same I always have, as we have unique swings to ourselves, but the way I swung was drastically improved in terms of what was in my head.

I didn't want to stop!

Best,

DJ

[no where to look]

[i][color=#282828]What are the chances anyone with whatever amount of talent being able to build a swing with which they can play golf by following fundamental principles rather than trying to copy the moves of another person?

I think that will bring greater success to the average person. If you're going to try to swing like a PGA Tour player with what you think is a "great swing," then you'd [u]better be[/u] "super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls," as you say. You're not going to build a swing like theirs part-time, very likely.[/color][/i][color=#282828][/color]

[color=#282828] [/color]

[size=5][color=#282828]DJ[/color][/size][color=#282828][/color]


[size=5][color="#000000"]There are many thousands of very good ball strikers in the world. Only a very few have 'game'[/color][/size]

[size=5][color="#000000"]We are talking about golf swing, not playing the game[/color][/size]



[size=5][color=#282828]Would you agree that the best golf swings whether [/color][size=5][color=#282828]amateur, or successful pga player today[/color][/size][/size]
[size=5][size=5][color=#282828]or in the past follow the same fundamental principles?[/color][/size][/size]
[size=5] [/size]
[size=5][size=5][color=#282828]Our bodies and brains are fundamentally the same.[/color][/size][/size]
[size=5][color="#000000"] [size="3"][color="#222222"] [/color][/size][/color][/size]
[size=5][color="#000000"] [/color][/size]
[size=5][color=#282828]When it comes to golf swing, the issue IMO, is to recognize what the Universal principles are? If we recognize the universal principles in a pga pro, I don't see any problem to try to mimic (mirror neurons) that which we see in a pro swing. We don't need an 'instructor' to do that.[/color][/size]

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1397912150' post='9124319']
[i][color=#282828]What are the chances anyone with whatever amount of talent being able to build a swing with which they can play golf by following fundamental principles rather than trying to copy the moves of another person?

I think that will bring greater success to the average person. If you're going to try to swing like a PGA Tour player with what you think is a "great swing," then you'd [u]better be[/u] "super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls," as you say. You're not going to build a swing like theirs part-time, very likely.[/color][/i]



[size=5][color=#282828]DJ[/color][/size]


[size=5][color=#000000]There are many thousands of very good ball strikers in the world. Only a very few have 'game'[/color][/size]

[size=5][color=#000000]We are talking about golf swing, not playing the game[/color][/size]



[size=5][color=#282828]Would you agree that the best golf swings whether [/color][color=#282828]amateur, or successful pga player today[/color][/size]
[size=5][color=#282828]or in the past follow the same fundamental principles?[/color][/size]

[size=5][color=#282828]Our bodies and brains are fundamentally the same.[/color][/size]


[size=5][color=#282828]When it comes to golf swing, the issue IMO, is to recognize what the Universal principles are? If we recognize the universal principles in a pga pro, I don't see any problem to try to mimic (mirror neurons) that which we see in a pro swing. We don't need an 'instructor' to do that.[/color][/size]
[/quote]

Hi no where to look,

I'm not saying people can't copy a swing, it's possible, but I have yet to see someone swing exactly like any other golfer. If that were possible, we'd have a thousand Ben Hogans and Tiger Woods out there. There aren't.

There was a huge firestorm a while ago when I wrote a thread showing how the old swingers stood more erect. That's a principle, but you can find hundreds of people standing erect with a different swing motion. Same with not having the arms hang straight down but slightly out, so the hands are beneath the head and not the shoulders.

Again, you can find swingers who stand more erect, have their arms angled slightly outward, and who swing differently. Another principle, free hip motion... and again, not one of these are mine, just things I've noticed in my own better swings and in the swings of the great swingers.

Jack Nicklaus, Hogan, Snead, Palmer - I could name dozens of great swingers who used at least these three above principles, and yet their swings were completely different one from the other. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a fight over what I'm writing here, but that's my opinion.

I could model Nicklaus and say [i]"swing exactly like that,"[/i] or Hogan, or Snead, and that's largely what we all do or have done. Or I could say, [i]"Use these three principles in your own swing and if you aren't already, you may find improvement in your action and results."[/i]

I think going about it the second way will work better for the average person. Six months ago, I would have tried the former. Six months for me is a life-time as I think about the swing virtually all day, every day. I'm the psycho at the bus stop making weird hand and hip motions, I never stop thinking about it.

I've evolved on this issue of swinging like other great swingers, I think it's possible to take certain principles and put them into one's own swing and not worry about whether one looks like this or that if they're hitting the ball solidly and consistently.

Whether or not one needs an instructor is a question unique to the individual. Some of the best players never had a swing lesson, some can't brush their teeth without their coach approving the stroke technique.

Without taking too much longer, I'll just say I'm struck by how good the pros are yet at the same time, as they work and practice obsessively on micro moves and angles with gadgets and cameras, they have spells where they have no idea where their ball is going to go and what is wrong. When they're on, they're on. When they're not, it's a horror show.

I think Tiger's troubles in recent years and fact he's always shown whatever his position is, is very teachable. The TV will always show Tiger, so it's an easy comparison to watch him in the lead or close to it, and then watching him when he's bringing up the rear and hitting everything sideways. Usually we only see the best when they're winning or near the lead. When they're [i]not[/i], the cameras don't show them chunking, swiping and hitting it places that would shock you. Even a guy who won last week and then misses the cut his next time out.

If this kind of swing is so hard for a gifted pro to build, groove and maintain, what chance do I have when I can't spend anywhere near the amount of time they do on it?

Sorry to ramble, but that's how I look at it.

Best,

DJ

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397913460' post='9124447']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1397912150' post='9124319']
[i][color=#282828]What are the chances anyone with whatever amount of talent being able to build a swing with which they can play golf by following fundamental principles rather than trying to copy the moves of another person?

I think that will bring greater success to the average person. If you're going to try to swing like a PGA Tour player with what you think is a "great swing," then you'd [u]better be[/u] "super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls," as you say. You're not going to build a swing like theirs part-time, very likely.[/color][/i]



[size=5][color=#282828]DJ[/color][/size]


[size=5][color=#000000]There are many thousands of very good ball strikers in the world. Only a very few have 'game'[/color][/size]

[size=5][color=#000000]We are talking about golf swing, not playing the game[/color][/size]



[size=5][color=#282828]Would you agree that the best golf swings whether [/color][color=#282828]amateur, or successful pga player today[/color][/size]
[size=5][color=#282828]or in the past follow the same fundamental principles?[/color][/size]

[size=5][color=#282828]Our bodies and brains are fundamentally the same.[/color][/size]


[size=5][color=#282828]When it comes to golf swing, the issue IMO, is to recognize what the Universal principles are? If we recognize the universal principles in a pga pro, I don't see any problem to try to mimic (mirror neurons) that which we see in a pro swing. We don't need an 'instructor' to do that.[/color][/size]
[/quote]

Hi no where to look,

I'm not saying people can't copy a swing, it's possible, but I have yet to see someone swing exactly like any other golfer. If that were possible, we'd have a thousand Ben Hogans and Tiger Woods out there. There aren't.

There was a huge firestorm a while ago when I wrote a thread showing how the old swingers stood more erect. That's a principle, but you can find hundreds of people standing erect with a different swing motion. Same with not having the arms hang straight down but slightly out, so the hands are beneath the head and not the shoulders.

Again, you can find swingers who stand more erect, have their arms angled slightly outward, and who swing differently. Another principle, free hip motion... and again, not one of these are mine, just things I've noticed in my own better swings and in the swings of the great swingers.

Jack Nicklaus, Hogan, Snead, Palmer - I could name dozens of great swingers who used at least these three above principles, and yet their swings were completely different one from the other. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a fight over what I'm writing here, but that's my opinion.

I could model Nicklaus and say [i]"swing exactly like that,"[/i] or Hogan, or Snead, and that's largely what we all do or have done. Or I could say, [i]"Use these three principles in your own swing and if you aren't already, you may find improvement in your action and results."[/i]

I think going about it the second way will work better for the average person. Six months ago, I would have tried the former. Six months for me is a life-time as I think about the swing virtually all day, every day. I'm the psycho at the bus stop making weird hand and hip motions, I never stop thinking about it.

I've evolved on this issue of swinging like other great swingers, I think it's possible to take certain principles and put them into one's own swing and not worry about whether one looks like this or that if they're hitting the ball solidly and consistently.

Whether or not one needs an instructor is a question unique to the individual. Some of the best players never had a swing lesson, some can't brush their teeth without their coach approving the stroke technique.

Without taking too much longer, I'll just say I'm struck by how good the pros are yet at the same time, as they work and practice obsessively on micro moves and angles with gadgets and cameras, they have spells where they have no idea where their ball is going to go and what is wrong. When they're on, they're on. When they're not, it's a horror show.

I think Tiger's troubles in recent years and fact he's always shown whatever his position is, is very teachable. The TV will always show Tiger, so it's an easy comparison to watch him in the lead or close to it, and then watching him when he's bringing up the rear and hitting everything sideways. Usually we only see the best when they're winning or near the lead. When they're [i]not[/i], the cameras don't show them chunking, swiping and hitting it places that would shock you. Even a guy who won last week and then misses the cut his next time out.

If this kind of swing is so hard for a gifted pro to build, groove and maintain, what chance do I have when I can't spend anywhere near the amount of time they do on it?

Sorry to ramble, but that's how I look at it.

Best,

DJ
[/quote]
I think this goes back to the difference between doing what you said you have done for years, study and work on your swing on the range.... as opposed to actually playing golf for a living. On the range a really solid shot that is 10 yards off line or short or long feels awesome and makes you feel good. In high stakes tournament golf on the toughest courses in the country a solid shot that is 10 yards off can be the difference between a birdie and a bogey or worse. So when you are watching tv coverage of a guy making bogey and the high and mighty commentators start in on how this guy or that guy lost his game, you have to remember the context in which this is happening. They are the best players in the world. If a guys game is at 96%, that's not good enough to win. If a guys game is at 85%he misses the cut. Either way the guy who's game is at 75% would still most likely shoot about 8-10 under every time in casual rounds on the courses most golfers play on. So when a tour pro "has no idea" where his ball is going, that usually means he would still beat the pants off of you and I and 99% of the golfers who post here.

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1397915301' post='9124595']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1397913460' post='9124447']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1397912150' post='9124319']
[i][color=#282828]What are the chances anyone with whatever amount of talent being able to build a swing with which they can play golf by following fundamental principles rather than trying to copy the moves of another person?

I think that will bring greater success to the average person. If you're going to try to swing like a PGA Tour player with what you think is a "great swing," then you'd [u]better be[/u] "super athletic, have good hand-eye, and hit lots of balls," as you say. You're not going to build a swing like theirs part-time, very likely.[/color][/i]



[size=5][color=#282828]DJ[/color][/size]


[size=5][color=#000000]There are many thousands of very good ball strikers in the world. Only a very few have 'game'[/color][/size]

[size=5][color=#000000]We are talking about golf swing, not playing the game[/color][/size]



[size=5][color=#282828]Would you agree that the best golf swings whether [/color][color=#282828]amateur, or successful pga player today[/color][/size]
[size=5][color=#282828]or in the past follow the same fundamental principles?[/color][/size]

[size=5][color=#282828]Our bodies and brains are fundamentally the same.[/color][/size]


[size=5][color=#282828]When it comes to golf swing, the issue IMO, is to recognize what the Universal principles are? If we recognize the universal principles in a pga pro, I don't see any problem to try to mimic (mirror neurons) that which we see in a pro swing. We don't need an 'instructor' to do that.[/color][/size]
[/quote]

Hi no where to look,

I'm not saying people can't copy a swing, it's possible, but I have yet to see someone swing exactly like any other golfer. If that were possible, we'd have a thousand Ben Hogans and Tiger Woods out there. There aren't.

There was a huge firestorm a while ago when I wrote a thread showing how the old swingers stood more erect. That's a principle, but you can find hundreds of people standing erect with a different swing motion. Same with not having the arms hang straight down but slightly out, so the hands are beneath the head and not the shoulders.

Again, you can find swingers who stand more erect, have their arms angled slightly outward, and who swing differently. Another principle, free hip motion... and again, not one of these are mine, just things I've noticed in my own better swings and in the swings of the great swingers.

Jack Nicklaus, Hogan, Snead, Palmer - I could name dozens of great swingers who used at least these three above principles, and yet their swings were completely different one from the other. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a fight over what I'm writing here, but that's my opinion.

I could model Nicklaus and say [i]"swing exactly like that,"[/i] or Hogan, or Snead, and that's largely what we all do or have done. Or I could say, [i]"Use these three principles in your own swing and if you aren't already, you may find improvement in your action and results."[/i]

I think going about it the second way will work better for the average person. Six months ago, I would have tried the former. Six months for me is a life-time as I think about the swing virtually all day, every day. I'm the psycho at the bus stop making weird hand and hip motions, I never stop thinking about it.

I've evolved on this issue of swinging like other great swingers, I think it's possible to take certain principles and put them into one's own swing and not worry about whether one looks like this or that if they're hitting the ball solidly and consistently.

Whether or not one needs an instructor is a question unique to the individual. Some of the best players never had a swing lesson, some can't brush their teeth without their coach approving the stroke technique.

Without taking too much longer, I'll just say I'm struck by how good the pros are yet at the same time, as they work and practice obsessively on micro moves and angles with gadgets and cameras, they have spells where they have no idea where their ball is going to go and what is wrong. When they're on, they're on. When they're not, it's a horror show.

I think Tiger's troubles in recent years and fact he's always shown whatever his position is, is very teachable. The TV will always show Tiger, so it's an easy comparison to watch him in the lead or close to it, and then watching him when he's bringing up the rear and hitting everything sideways. Usually we only see the best when they're winning or near the lead. When they're [i]not[/i], the cameras don't show them chunking, swiping and hitting it places that would shock you. Even a guy who won last week and then misses the cut his next time out.

If this kind of swing is so hard for a gifted pro to build, groove and maintain, what chance do I have when I can't spend anywhere near the amount of time they do on it?

Sorry to ramble, but that's how I look at it.

Best,

DJ
[/quote]
I think this goes back to the difference between doing what you said you have done for years, study and work on your swing on the range.... as opposed to actually playing golf for a living. On the range a really solid shot that is 10 yards off line or short or long feels awesome and makes you feel good. In high stakes tournament golf on the toughest courses in the country a solid shot that is 10 yards off can be the difference between a birdie and a bogey or worse. So when you are watching tv coverage of a guy making bogey and the high and mighty commentators start in on how this guy or that guy lost his game, you have to remember the context in which this is happening. They are the best players in the world. If a guys game is at 96%, that's not good enough to win. If a guys game is at 85%he misses the cut. Either way the guy who's game is at 75% would still most likely shoot about 8-10 under every time in casual rounds on the courses most golfers play on. So when a tour pro "has no idea" where his ball is going, that usually means he would still beat the pants off of you and I and 99% of the golfers who post here.
[/quote]

JPGolf FL,

I'll never please everyone. I don't see other swing "studiers" being expected to go out and beat their own players. Leadbetter, Foley - can they beat their own players? Could they even make the cut at the local PGA stop?

So, why listen to what they say about the swing? Because the people they work with get better? I can say the same on a smaller scale.

Also, I'm preparing this year to go out and compete, nothing on the scale of PGA Tour play, but I'm going to tee it up.

I don't see why I'm being held to a higher standard than what you expect from the guys who coach the best players in the world. I've already said that many of the people I help would beat me on the course, currently. I'm not giving them playing lessons, I'm looking at their swings and making suggestions.

A player who misses a green with a GW from 115 yards like I did yesterday when I went over - is the best player in the world somehow excused for a terrible shot like that when he does it? No, it's a shockingly bad result from that distance for just about any level. Hitting a drive OB by 40 yards? I can find a thousand people who can do that, who don't work on their swings all day, all year long.

I wonder what you all would say on this forum about the swings of Lee Trevino, Ray Floyd, Jim Furyk... hackers all, if you didn't know how they played, right?

Vijay Singh is a goat-herder by the standards of some here - how many of them could beat him? A little consistency of standards would be nice.

So, I don't know what to tell you. I can't go out tomorrow and win the RBC or even get through Q-School - find me a swing analyst or coach who [i]could[/i].

Best,

DJ

[bph7]

DJ,

Leadbetter and Foley are being held to the exact same standard as you: if you prove your teaching prowess by succeeding in teaching the worlds best players, your opinions on the golf swing will tend to be held in higher regard than others. They have, you haven't. Doesn't mean you can't contribute valuable golf knowledge, but rather it means that you shouldn't expect the same level of respect/deference as those who have proven they are the best in the work at teaching.

[JPGolf FL]

Wasn't taking a shot at you or anything. Just pointing out the higher standard the golfers we see on tv are held to. No one, other than vintage tiger, plays full tournaments at 100% capacity. Remember when tiger won the us open by 15 strokes??? If any tour player could play at 100% capacity for 4 rounds straight, they would also win by 15. That's not a swing issue, it's a brain issue. Sure a good swing helps, but 95% of tour players have good enough swings to do it. No matter how good the swing, if it's not in sync with the brain, it is useless. Research has shown that in the brain, each swing has to be conjured up from scratch. Sure practice and good mechanics make said conjuring easier, but without the right mindset, it's not going to happen perfectly for 4 days straight.

[no where to look]

[i]Jack Nicklaus, Hogan, Snead, Palmer - I could name dozens of great swingers who used at least these three above principles, and yet their swings were completely different one from the other. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a fight over what I'm writing here, but that's my opinion.[/i]

Dj

I am not saying to copy someone elses swing.

I am saying that great ball strikers such as Jack Nicklaus, Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer and Ben Hogan plus many others, did certain things the same.(not identical) and those are the important things for all golfers to take note of and to emulate.

IMO an instructor who knows, will be able to point out to any golfer, what those common elements are and insist that the golfer incorporate those few elements.
Either the instructor can explain the reason those elements are fundamental beyond any doubt or the golfer is left not knowing who to believe.

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1397917816' post='9124757']
[i]Jack Nicklaus, Hogan, Snead, Palmer - I could name dozens of great swingers who used at least these three above principles, and yet their swings were completely different one from the other. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a fight over what I'm writing here, but that's my opinion.[/i]

Dj

I am not saying to copy someone elses swing.

I am saying that great ball strikers such as Jack Nicklaus, Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer and Ben Hogan plus many others, did certain things the same.(not identical) and those are the important things for all golfers to take note of and to emulate.

IMO an instructor who knows, will be able to point out to any golfer, what those common elements are and insist that the golfer incorporate those few elements.
Either the instructor can explain the reason those elements are fundamental beyond any doubt or the golfer is left not knowing who to believe.
[/quote]

no where to look,

It seems we're on agreement on that point you mention:[i] "I am saying that great ball strikers such as Jack Nicklaus, Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer and Ben Hogan plus many others, did certain things the same.(not identical) and those are the important things for all golfers to take note of and to emulate."[/i]

Isn't that [i]exactly[/i] what I'm saying? Is the disagreement here not what I'm saying, but what I'm suggesting people emulate?

Seems to me that's the only disagreement. I'm saying to emulate certain different things from what others are saying to emulate, but I imagine there's room in this forum for both views?

Best,

DJ