Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[Mr Mustard]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1419372450' post='10634619']
Always? Is that a fundamental then??? Lol
[/quote]

[attachment=2545153:image.jpg]

It's clearly not a fundamental - you don't hit the ball with your set up, although having a set up that could lead to proper impact alignments would be advantageous, it's not required. This is a simple misuse of the term "fundamental"

"Almost always" is not fundamental

My apologies for back to back Moe Norman posts, I'm sure that violates something somewhere in the Terms of Agreement I didn't read.

[iteachgolf]

It's ok Cary. You can't help yourself

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Mr Mustard' timestamp='1419373167' post='10634657']
[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1419372450' post='10634619']
Always? Is that a fundamental then??? Lol
[/quote]

[attachment=2545153:image.jpg]

It's clearly not a fundamental - you don't hit the ball with your set up, although having a set up that could lead to proper impact alignments would be advantageous, it's not required. This is a simple misuse of the term "fundamental"

"Almost always" is not fundamental

My apologies for back to back Moe Norman posts, I'm sure that violates something somewhere in the Terms of Agreement I didn't read.
[/quote]

if you were having a trophy made in your honor, what attributes of the trophy would you feel are important?

[Mr Mustard]

Ok, my name is not Cary, I know who you are referring to and I'm not him. Let's allow the conversation to go on without it turning into a silly game, I'll behave myself if you guys don't accuse me of being this Cary guy

[Mr Mustard]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1419373945' post='10634711']
[quote name='Mr Mustard' timestamp='1419373167' post='10634657']
[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1419372450' post='10634619']
Always? Is that a fundamental then??? Lol
[/quote]

[attachment=2545153:image.jpg]

It's clearly not a fundamental - you don't hit the ball with your set up, although having a set up that could lead to proper impact alignments would be advantageous, it's not required. This is a simple misuse of the term "fundamental"

"Almost always" is not fundamental

My apologies for back to back Moe Norman posts, I'm sure that violates something somewhere in the Terms of Agreement I didn't read.
[/quote]

if you were having a trophy made in your honor, what attributes of the trophy would you feel are important?
[/quote]

Only that it said 1st place on it.

That was my last humorous comment, let's return the conversation back to the right arm on the downswing

[iteachgolf]

Ok I'll pretend. What would you like to talk about the right arm on the downswing? Your boy Moe straightens it very hard. Straight impact and bent maybe 40* at p6

[Mr Mustard]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419374902' post='10634763']
Ok I'll pretend. What would you like to talk about the right arm on the downswing? Your boy Moe straightens it very hard. Straight impact and bent maybe 40* at p6
[/quote]

I think your missing a comma or semi colon in the question but I go to crappy CA public schools so I could be wrong.

Moe was standing considerably further away from the ball than most golfers, he probably has one of the straitest right arms in golf. But I do think that from whatever set up you use, the right arm should work in a similar fashion to Moe's.

In all honestly iTeach, I just wanted correct you about the set up, maybe I'll jump back in in a few posts.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Mr Mustard' timestamp='1419375452' post='10634785']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419374902' post='10634763']
Ok I'll pretend. What would you like to talk about the right arm on the downswing? Your boy Moe straightens it very hard. Straight impact and bent maybe 40* at p6
[/quote]

I think your missing a comma or semi colon in the question but I go to crappy CA public schools so I could be wrong.

Moe was standing considerably further away from the ball than most golfers, he probably has one of the straitest right arms in golf. But I do think that from whatever set up you use, the right arm should work in a similar fashion to Moe's.

In all honestly iTeach, I just wanted correct you about the set up, maybe I'll jump back in in a few posts.
[/quote]

I'm typing on my phone. Sometimes grammatical errors will occur.

So basically you have nothing to add?

You didn't correct anything. I never said you had to setup below the clubs lie angle just that you should. Moe Normans head moves all over the place and he lowers drastically to compensate for his setup. I said that if you didn't setup with toe off the ground and below impact lie angle you'd have to compensate somehow. Which is exactly what Moe does. Make big compensations as a result of his setup.

[russc1597187869]

the thread is about trail arm extending in downswing.

yes agree the weight of the arms moving away from the torso in DS increases the MOI and torso decelerates as a result.

 

That does not mean that the trail arm has to lose the bend in the elbow. Trail arm can stay bent (the Babe, Jetter , Moe)

 

Timing the extension of the trail arm creates timing issues EE, OTT, humping , stalling, on and on... misses left and right.

 

So now you completely change your tune and act like you were saying the next segment accelerating slows down the previous the entire time. Your entire argument was that slowing down the previous increased speed in the next. Which I told you was backwards and incorrect.

 

Btw the rear arm does have to straighten and does lose flex in ALL golf swings in the downswing. You actually earlier agreed it straightened but it was CF that did it and the batter had no choice, also wrong. Now you claim the trail arm doesn't lose flex at all. Again you keep moving the goal post and changing your answers acting like you had it right the whole time. Not fooling anyone

 

 

settle...take a prozac

 

 

I havent changed my tune. Your so insecure about your lack of knowledge( a professional instructor?)

MOI increases as weight of arms moves away from our torso. That starts deceleration in our lower body, then torso, then arms, then hands.

 

... NO CHANGE

 

and you still havent explained how the lower body decelerates before the hands decelerate, when YOU SAY,

that the extension of the trail arm causes the hands to decelerate.

 

BTW the trail elbow does not have to straighten, until after impact. The Babe and Ben Hogan proved that. Its obviously impossible for you to open your mind. Try with our eyes.....no? ...ok give up.. go back to your tricep

So do you want to lock that in that hogans right arm is bent the same amount at the top of the swing and impact?

 

 

and how much did it move, anal boy?

 

you guys who have not clue how Hogan did what he did, so you;ve got to invent sh#% so you can live with that fact

 

 

 

 

Btw Hogan's right arm straightened a lot coming down. Not some insignificant amount like you imply. It straightens between 45 and 70* depending on the swing coming down.

 

The way I see it is that it starts to straighten right away. That's part of the whole pull the arrow out of the quiver deally.

 

 

Do you believe that the hands move faster than the right elbow right away?

[iteachgolf]

Hands move at a faster speed than the right elbow. The elbow starts moving first due to momentum for a very short period of time. Theres a difference between moving at the same rate and moving at same speed. Has nothing to do with current topic though Russ. In Hogan's swing his hands are moving faster than his shoulders in both rate and speed. Which is why his hands work away from his right shoulder immediately.

[bscinstnct]

This is cool. Scary that I can *almost* follow.

Clearly, golf instruction is becoming a science and top instructors are rapidly developing the language to pair/adapt and explain.

Good stuff.

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1419383693' post='10635245']
This is cool. Scary that I can *almost* follow.

[/quote]

Haha, well then you're ahead of me. I just follow that there's some arguing. But about exactly what still escapes. I may go back and read it more carefully because I think this is worth understanding. If I am tracking it, the way I have thought about this is 'don't dip but swing the arms down' which I think equals right arm unbending quickly.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419377205' post='10634887']
Hands move at a faster speed than the right elbow. The elbow starts moving first due to momentum for a very short period of time. Theres a difference between moving at the same rate and moving at same speed. Has nothing to do with current topic though Russ. In Hogan's swing his hands are moving faster than his shoulders in both rate and speed. Which is why his hands work away from his right shoulder immediately.
[/quote]
Before i respond what is your defintion of rate and speed.?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419385103' post='10635329']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419377205' post='10634887']
Hands move at a faster speed than the right elbow. The elbow starts moving first due to momentum for a very short period of time. Theres a difference between moving at the same rate and moving at same speed. Has nothing to do with current topic though Russ. In Hogan's swing his hands are moving faster than his shoulders in both rate and speed. Which is why his hands work away from his right shoulder immediately.
[/quote]
Before i respond what is your defintion of rate and speed.?
[/quote]

It's not my definition. It's as simple as I can make it. Rate or RPM and speed are not the same when dealing with levers in a rotational movement.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419385103' post='10635329']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419377205' post='10634887']
Hands move at a faster speed than the right elbow. The elbow starts moving first due to momentum for a very short period of time. Theres a difference between moving at the same rate and moving at same speed. Has nothing to do with current topic though Russ. In Hogan's swing his hands are moving faster than his shoulders in both rate and speed. Which is why his hands work away from his right shoulder immediately.
[/quote]
Before i respond what is your defintion of rate and speed.?
[/quote]
What's your definition of definition?

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1419387226' post='10635453']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419385103' post='10635329']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419377205' post='10634887']
Hands move at a faster speed than the right elbow. The elbow starts moving first due to momentum for a very short period of time. Theres a difference between moving at the same rate and moving at same speed. Has nothing to do with current topic though Russ. In Hogan's swing his hands are moving faster than his shoulders in both rate and speed. Which is why his hands work away from his right shoulder immediately.
[/quote]
Before i respond what is your defintion of rate and speed.?
[/quote]
What's your definition of definition?
[/quote]
Cmon .i was asking what i thought to be legitimate question .Too often discussions turn into arguments because terms are not clearly defined

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419390259' post='10635659']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1419387226' post='10635453']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419385103' post='10635329']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419377205' post='10634887']
Hands move at a faster speed than the right elbow. The elbow starts moving first due to momentum for a very short period of time. Theres a difference between moving at the same rate and moving at same speed. Has nothing to do with current topic though Russ. In Hogan's swing his hands are moving faster than his shoulders in both rate and speed. Which is why his hands work away from his right shoulder immediately.
[/quote]
Before i respond what is your defintion of rate and speed.?
[/quote]
What's your definition of definition?
[/quote]
Cmon .i was asking what i thought to be legitimate question .Too often discussions turn into arguments because terms are not clearly defined
[/quote]

I didn't know what he meant by those defs either....

[iteachgolf]

When moving in a circle an object rotating around a circle can spin at a fixed rate but the end will be moving faster than the part closest to the center. Even if elbow and hand were moving at a fixed rate, meaning right arm maintaining same flex and not straightening, the hands would be moving faster than the elbow. This is extremely basic. Same rate/rpms is not Equal to same speed

Hands move faster than the elbow and much faster than shoulders. Top of the swing depends on what you consider the top. If you consider the start of downswing when the club begins changing directions then as soon as the downswing starts hands are moving faster than elbow and much faster than shoulders virtually immediately in almost all instances.

[iteachgolf]

If elbow was moving at any speed faster than the hands forward the right elbow would be increasing in flex. In the gif Russ quoted it's obviously the right arm isn't increasing in flex, and if anything is beginning to straighten immediately. At worst it's maintaining constant flex which would still mean hands are moving faster than the elbow

[MK7Golf21]

Haven't read the entire thread though but can't the active straightening off right arm from top of backswing be likened to throwing a football or baseball. You are intentionally trying to straightening the arm from the top of swing but doesn't get fully straight until after the ball has been released.

[iteachgolf]

 

Good visual to show how hands immediately start speeding up relative to the shoulders in the downswing. Pros get there arms moving faster than their shoulders sooner and at a much faster rate. Meaning the hands move away from the shoulder and right arm straightens at a faster rate in pros than amateurs. Amateurs keep right arm bent TOO LONG keeping arms moving slower and closer to the same speed as the shoulders. You'll see the amateurs hips move at almost the same speed as the pros and shoulders actually move faster and accelerate for longer. But arms and as a result the club don't accelerate nearly as fast yielding less speed. The shoulders slow down by the arms accelerating and right arm straightening. Because this isn't happening as early or at as fast of a rate the shoulders don't slow down.

 

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1419391936' post='10635795']
Haven't read the entire thread though but can't the active straightening off right arm from top of backswing be likened to throwing a football or baseball. You are intentionally trying to straightening the arm from the top of swing but doesn't get fully straight until after the ball has been released.
[/quote]
Which is exactly why right arm can't straighten too fast coming down. The right shoulder is also moving towards the ball, just at a slower rate which is keeping it from straightening completely until after impact. Only way it becomes straight prior to impact is when right shoulder stalls. Which generally happens when right arm is too bent and shoulder has too stall to get right arm extended

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419391406' post='10635745']
When moving in a circle an object rotating around a circle can spin at a fixed rate but the end will be moving faster than the part closest to the center. Even if elbow and hand were moving at a fixed rate, meaning right arm maintaining same flex and not straightening, the hands would be moving faster than the elbow. This is extremely basic. Same rate/rpms is not Equal to same speed

Hands move faster than the elbow and much faster than shoulders. Top of the swing depends on what you consider the top. If you consider the start of downswing when the club begins changing directions then as soon as the downswing starts hands are moving faster than elbow and much faster than shoulders virtually immediately in almost all instances.
[/quote]

Thx

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419391406' post='10635745']
When moving in a circle an object rotating around a circle can spin at a fixed rate but the end will be moving faster than the part closest to the center. Even if elbow and hand were moving at a fixed rate, meaning right arm maintaining same flex and not straightening, the hands would be moving faster than the elbow. This is extremely basic. Same rate/rpms is not Equal to same speed

Hands move faster than the elbow and much faster than shoulders. Top of the swing depends on what you consider the top. If you consider the start of downswing when the club begins changing directions then as soon as the downswing starts hands are moving faster than elbow and much faster than shoulders virtually immediately in almost all instances.
[/quote]
The humerus bone connects the elbow to the shoulder while the hands/ wrist are connected to the elbow by the ulna and radius bones.
In your example the center of the circle is the shoulder joint.Thus both the hands and elbow will be moving faster than the shoulder .
Are the hands moving faster than the elbow in the transition thru early part of the downswing ?Obviously the humerus bone does not change length so the distance travelled by the hands will be the same as that travelled by the hands ; thus the hands will move at the same speed as the right elbow provided the right arm does not extend (straighten) and provided there is no internal or external rotation of the shoulder .If a golfer makes the elbow move (see second video below),two things happen .the right shoulder transversely adducts meaning that the upper arm moves closer to the body .Does this change the speed of the hands relative to the elbow .NO.The second thing that happens is that the right shoulder externally rotates.This movement actually will result in the right elbow rotating more than the the hands.Whether this means that the elbow moves faster than the hands ,i can not tell ,but unless the lower right am straightens the hands will not be moving faster than the hands .Now of course the lower right arm does eventually strengthen and the hands start to move faster than the right elbow
Rotational ,movements of the right elbow will mirror rotational movements of the right shoulder via (hopefull) external and not internal rotation of the right shoulder
Notice that in the first video Mr Quiros right arm angle actually becomes more acute in transition/early downswing,while in the second Kelvin Miyahira draws lines indicating that the right elbow has moved more than the hands. . Mr Quiros , is the golfer in the dark shirt in Kelvins video
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0APuaJXoA2I[/media]
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQPj4lmHKL4[/media]

Look at the 2 video below

[PingG10guy]

2D lines on a 3D motion.

And regarding the right arm acuteness in transition from that perspective as the elbow goes under it appears that way imo. Bending the right arm in transition therefore is a cute idea

[gwlee7]

I thought that speed = distance/time? A fifth grader knows that if your hands travel a greater distance than your elbow in the same amount of time then the hands are moving faster.

[iteachgolf]

Russ if elbow is staying the same flex and we are rotating the hands are moving faster than the elbow. This is exactly why I wrote the definition the way I did. If right arm stays the same flex, which it does for maybe 0.05 seconds, it's moving at the same RATE, not speed. The hands will be moving in a bigger circle than the elbow covering a greater distance over the same period of time. You know moving faster. This isn't getting into the fact that as soon as the right arm arm begins rotating internally the hands move at a drastically faster rate than the elbow. You better hope your right shoulder isn't externally rotating the entire downswing. You could move the elbow at a faster rate for a very short period of time but right arm would increase in bend significantly.

[iteachgolf]

In the behind view of Quiros it's plain as day the hands move much greater distance on a much bigger arc than the elbow

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419432739' post='10637003']
You better hope your right shoulder isn't externally rotating the entire downswing.
[/quote]

[size=4]I guess this is the place where I say that ER of the right elbow through the entire/most-of-the downswing is a great way to make alignments look sweet on camera and appear to have "it". lol[/size]