Nearest Point of relief - club used

[Guia]

The path might be so wide that it takes you against a fence or wall, so complete relief was not possible. Probably a weak analogy, there could be other interference because of the width.

Anyway, not worth defending a wide path. It is always NPR and complete relief.

[Guia]

QEight: Why is it different if the player has a 3 wood?

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417760553' post='10546689']

I would assume that if the ball was in the middle of the path you get your choice as to nearest relief. If that is the case then I certainly would choose the side that is advantageous to my swing as the NPR.
[/quote]

If the ball is exactly in the middle, NPR is on the left for a right handed golfer, and it is on the right for a left handed golfer.

You can't stand on the path. The word "nearest" is still tripping you up.

[Guia]

No, I said that if the ball was in the middle you have a choice, since I assume that full relief is available on each side. Obvisously, you take the side that is most advantageous.

Full relief means you can't stand on the path and your swing cannot hit the path. I have no confusion on what complete relief is from path entails.

I think I see your thinking though. Are you saying that for a right hander the left side would position the ball in closer relief to the path? Where as relief on the right side would position the heels closer to the path?

I have always practiced that it made no difference as long as the path was not in play.

However, the diagram does not support that theory.

[HitEmTrue]

The path is 4 foot wide. Ball is sitting in middle. Right handed golfer.

Move it to the left edge plus 4 or 5 inches to avoid hitting the path. Distance moved equals 2 feet 5 inches.

Move it to the right requires moving it about 4 feet, depending on the club. A shorter distance if using a wedge, longer distance if using a driver. Because you can't stand on the path.

2 feet 5 inches is nearer than 4 feet. NPR is to the left.

[Guia]

I see your reasoning.

If you look at the diagram though it makes no distinction of where the ball is in relation to the immoveable object after relief, just identifies to what side the drop is made and in a club length. Just that the relief is complete and within a club length, nothing about being right or left handed.



Again, if in the middle, take the choice side you desire.

[Newby]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417763827' post='10546769']
I see your reasoning.

If you look at the diagram though it makes no distinction of where the ball is in relation to the immoveable object after relief, just identifies to what side the drop is made and in a club length. Just that the relief is complete and within a club length, nothing about being right or left handed.



Again, if in the middle, take the choice side you desire.
[/quote]

Remember, it is not just about the position of the ball. It also includes stance and intended area of swing.

For a RH player, he would have to take a stance to the right of the path before simulating the swing. So the distance to where the possible 'npr' (ie ball) would be (ie further to the right).
He would then take a stance to the left and find that if the ball was placed a few inches to the left of the path, there would be no interference to his stance. So where the ball is, is where the possible 'npr' would be.
He would them measure both possible 'nprs' to see which was closest to the original position. That is [b]the[/b] npr.

It would be [b]very[/b] rare for both distances to be exactly the same

The whole thing depends on how wide the path is and where the original ball lies on the path. Of itself, 'middle' is irrelevant.

[Guia]

Elaborate on the area of the swing?

So you are also taking into account the width of the path to determine which drop side is closest? I thought about that also, but I am stuck on the relief shown in the diagram.
If you notice in the diagram the relief taken on the right places the heels nearer the path, which puts the ball further away from if it had been taken on the left side.

[Newby]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417763827' post='10546769']
I see your reasoning.

nothing about being right or left handed.


[/quote]

The diagram includes the words 'Right handed player' in the top RH corner under the words 'Direction of Play'.
The diagram would be reversed for a LH player.

[Guia]

That relief area shown was the nearest to the ball that laid on the right side of the, so the relief was taken on the side. To me, the printed Right Handed Player, just shows the direction of play.

The other half of that diagram shows the drop when the ball is on the left side of the path.

Under you previous reasoning dropping on the right side would place the ball further from the path than dropping on the left side. You changed your reasoning.

[QEight]

 

Imagine a long club in situation B2, it would put his "NPR" around point C. This is further than a point on left side of the path, so his NPR would in reality be in left side, even if the ball is close to the right edge of the path.

 

If you look at the diagram though it makes no distinction of where the ball is in relation to the immoveable object after relief, just identifies to what side the drop is made and in a club length. Just that the relief is complete and within a club length, nothing about being right or left handed.

 

The place of the ball after the drop is irrelevant in this context of NPR. NPR is either P1 or P2. And distance between P1 to B1 (or P2 to B2) must be shortest (Nearest) to allow relief from path. Now move B2 left, closer to the middle of the path. At some point the NPR jumps to the left side of the path. It may not require the ball (B2) to be on left half of the path. And this switch over point would depend on the left/right handness of the player and the club selection.

[Guia]

I get your distinction of moving B2 to the middle making the left side the NPR for a right handed player. Makes sense, so there would not be a choice.

But what is your opinion when the ball is on the right side of the path?

[QEight]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417768262' post='10546871']
I get your distinction of moving B2 to the middle making the left side the NPR for a right handed player. Makes sense, so there would not be a choice.

But what is your opinion when the ball is on the right side of the path?
[/quote]

See my reply above.

[Guia]

I have no problem with your logic to the ball being in the center and a right handed golfer NPR would be on the left.

I think that the diagram shows that dependent on ball position (on the path) you cannot take relief to the opposite side of the path because that would not be the NPR. Relation of the ball to the immoveable object is not a factor as long as it is within 1 club length and is complete relief.

Of course there is always a fly in the ointment. If it were a very narrow path the opposite side could be closer depending on if your right or left handed. I don't
recall seeing a paved path that narrow.

I will take this up with our rules guy on Monday. Good night.

[QEight]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417769128' post='10546897']
I think that the diagram shows that dependent on ball position (on the path) you cannot take relief to the opposite side of the path because that would not be the NPR. Relation of the ball to the immoveable object is not a factor as long as it is within 1 club length and is complete relief.

Of course there is always a fly in the ointment. If it were a very narrow path the opposite side could be closer depending on if your right or left handed. I don't
recall seeing a paved path that narrow.
[/quote]

I hope we could "drop" the subject about the actual drop and concentrate on NPR. All we have to do is find Px which is closest to Bx, where there is a complete relief from the condition.

And it does not have to be path, it could be french drain, or GUR, or a fence. The NPR could be on the other side of fence.

[Newby]

Forget the middle of the path. The point you are concerned with is where the nearest point of relief is.
The same process is used when taking relief from a staked tree, casual water, GUR or a path which crosses the fairway perpendicularly or at an angle (NB NOT A WATER HAZARD OF ANY TYPE)

If you are taking relief from a path crossing the fairway, the middle or centre in relation to the line of play has no [b]useful[/b] meaning.

[b]In [u]any[/u] situation, don't get confused by the 'middle'.[/b] [b]It is irrelevant.[/b]

In the case in point.
Look at the ball. Don't touch or move it yet.
Take a stance to the left where there is no interference.
Mark where the ball would be for that stroke with the club you would have played for the original position.
Take a stance to the right where there is no interference.
Mark where the ball would be for that stroke with the club you would have played for the original position.
Measure the distance of both to the original ball. The position of marker with the shorter distance is the npr.
Mark 1 club length (with any club) from the npr.
Pick up and drop the ball within the arc (see diagram)
Play with any club

For the moment ignore the problems of not dropping in hazards etc and not being able to drop because of another problem. We can sort those out later.
Just get the basics (above) sorted first.

[Colin L]

I am impressed by the perseverance of so many in trying to help the one who clearly either does not understand and won't listen or is just intent on making mischief.

Guia, you asked earlier why you are getting hammered. It is simply because you keep getting things wrong and won't listen to any of the many voices trying to help you get it right. Fewer postings and more reading with an open mind would take you a long way. Perhaps you are unaware that a goodly number of the people who have been responding to you are well qualified and experienced in the Rules?

My one question to you is this:

You choose to take relief from an abnormal ground condition or an immovable obstruction say 50 yards from the green. Had the ground condition or the obstruction not been there, you would have taken a wedge for your next shot. You determine the nearest point of relief by simulating a stance and swing with your driver at the nearest place that avoids interference not nearer the hole . You mark where the head of the driver is. [color=#ff0000]Does that correctly mark the spot of the NPR according to the Definition?[/color]

I've worded the question so that it can be answered Yes or No. Depending on your answer, I'll have another question.

Don't even mention an unplayable ball - NPR, as has been pointed out many times, does not apply.

[bk52]

If the correct determination of the NPR relies upon using the club one would intend to use to make the stroke in the absence of the interference, why do the Rules of Golf and Decisions say "recommend" and "should" rather than "must" or some other word that conveys a requirement rather than a guideline? What would be the downside of using "must" in the Rule and Decision?

[QEight]

[quote name='bk52' timestamp='1417782989' post='10547135']
If the correct determination of the NPR relies upon using the club one would intend to use to make the stroke in the absence of the interference, why do the Rules of Golf and Decisions say "recommend" and "should" rather than "must" or some other word that conveys a requirement rather than a guideline? What would be the downside of using "must" in the Rule and Decision?
[/quote]

To my understanding the measurement procedures in golf are kept as light as possible. Which is that you do not have to measure "anything" until there is a possibility of limits being broken. Perhaps this is why there is only "should".

[Guia]

No. The club does not determine the NPR. I don't recall ever saying that the club made the determination.

The club (any club) is used to measure the drop zone after the NPR is established.

[Colin L]

[quote name='bk52' timestamp='1417782989' post='10547135']
If the correct determination of the NPR relies upon using the club one would intend to use to make the stroke in the absence of the interference, why do the Rules of Golf and Decisions say "recommend" and "should" rather than "must" or some other word that conveys a requirement rather than a guideline? What would be the downside of using "must" in the Rule and Decision?
[/quote]

As QEight says: to keep open the possibility in all relief situations of not having to measure anything, the only critical matter being the dropped ball strikes the course in a correct place and comes to rest in the right area. I tried to explain my understanding in another thread. It makes for easy writing just to copy and paste it!

[color=#0000cd]Now, why in the same Definition and in Decisions do we read words like "should" and "recommended". And especially why does Decision 24-2b/1 confusingly say that using the same club is a recommendation and yet answers the question of whether you can you use any club with a no? My best understanding is that all the way through the wording has to allow the player to proceed in any way he wishes including just guesstimating the NPR and to allow for getting the NPR wrong and still end up with the dropped ball correctly in play.[/color]

[color=#0000cd]If the Definition were worded, "In order to determine the [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Nearest-Point-Of-Relief"][color=#0000cd]nearest point of relief[/color][/url][/i][color=#0000cd] accurately, the player must use the club with which he would have made his next [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"][color=#0000cd]stroke[/color][/url][color=#0000cd]", [/color][/i][color=#0000cd]the[i] must [/i]would mean having to determine the NPR every time. That would change the general principle that applies to all forms of relief at the moment: it doesn't matter how you measure or estimate or just guess, all that matters is that the ball is dropped in the correct place and ends up in the correct place.[/color]

[color=#0000cd]In summary, the Rules are worded with [i]should[/i] and [i]recommendation[/i] etc" in order to preserve this freedom to decide where to drop using any method you wish and to preserve the possibility of a correct drop regardless of the process of making it. But should you have to verify that a dropped ball is in play, the Definition of NPR makes it clear that the precise determination [b][i]must [/i][/b]be done with the club that would have been chosen - plus the same swing, direction of play etc.[/color]

[Guia]

Newby: I agree with your last post.

Again, nothing says must.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='bk52' timestamp='1417782989' post='10547135']
If the correct determination of the NPR relies upon using the club one would intend to use to make the stroke in the absence of the interference, why do the Rules of Golf and Decisions say "recommend" and "should" rather than "must" or some other word that conveys a requirement rather than a guideline? What would be the downside of using "must" in the Rule and Decision?
[/quote]

It would waste time when NPR is obvious, and would unnecessarily penalize people who drop the ball in a properly estimated spot without jumping through the hoops first.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1417784836' post='10547227']
As QEight says: to keep open the possibility in all relief situations of not having to measure anything, the only critical matter being the dropped ball strikes the course in a correct place and comes to rest in the right area. I tried to explain my understanding in another thread. It makes for easy writing just to copy and paste it!

[color=#0000cd]Now, why in the same Definition and in Decisions do we read words like "should" and "recommended". And especially why does Decision 24-2b/1 confusingly say that using the same club is a recommendation and yet answers the question of whether you can you use any club with a no? My best understanding is that all the way through the wording has to allow the player to proceed in any way he wishes including just guesstimating the NPR and to allow for getting the NPR wrong and still end up with the dropped ball correctly in play.[/color]

[color=#0000cd]If the Definition were worded, "In order to determine the [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Nearest-Point-Of-Relief"][color=#0000cd]nearest point of relief[/color][/url][/i][color=#0000cd] accurately, the player must use the club with which he would have made his next [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"][color=#0000cd]stroke[/color][/url][color=#0000cd]", [/color][/i][color=#0000cd]the[i] must [/i]would mean having to determine the NPR every time. That would change the general principle that applies to all forms of relief at the moment: it doesn't matter how you measure or estimate or just guess, all that matters is that the ball is dropped in the correct place and ends up in the correct place.[/color]

[color=#0000cd]In summary, the Rules are worded with [i]should[/i] and [i]recommendation[/i] etc" in order to preserve this freedom to decide where to drop using any method you wish and to preserve the possibility of a correct drop regardless of the process of making it. But should you have to verify that a dropped ball is in play, the Definition of NPR makes it clear that the precise determination [b][i]must [/i][/b]be done with the club that would have been chosen - plus the same swing, direction of play etc.[/color]
[/quote]

Thank you for that great explanation!

[Newby]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417785114' post='10547231']
Newby: I agree with your last post.

Again, nothing says must.
[/quote]

'Should' relates to having to use the whole procedure not to the club specifically. So the player [b]should[/b] use the procedure but does not have to. It is pretty obvious on many occasions where the npr (and resultant drop area limit) is going to be, without having to simulate a swing or measure anything etc.
That is why 'must' is not used.

Do you want to continue with the question of drops that 'cannot be made' because of other problems? If you are interested I'll open another thread.

[QEight]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1417784836' post='10547227']
[color=#0000cd]In summary, the Rules are worded with [i]should[/i] and [i]recommendation[/i] etc" in order to preserve this freedom to decide where to drop using any method you wish and to preserve the possibility of a correct drop regardless of the process of making it. But should you have to verify that a dropped ball is in play, the Definition of NPR makes it clear that the precise determination [b][i]must [/i][/b]be done with the club that would have been chosen - plus the same swing, direction of play etc.[/color]
[/quote]

Very well put. And only now I really grasped what this "should" relates to, not club but the action itself. I thought the rule read out oddly, but now it is clear.

[bk52]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1417784836' post='10547227']

[color=#0000CD]Now, why in the same Definition and in Decisions do we read words like "should" and "recommended". And especially why does Decision 24-2b/1 confusingly say that using the same club is a recommendation and yet answers the question of whether you can you use any club with a no? My best understanding is that all the way through the wording has to allow the player to proceed in any way he wishes including just guesstimating the NPR and to allow for getting the NPR wrong and still end up with the dropped ball correctly in play.[/color]

[color=#0000CD]If the Definition were worded, "In order to determine the [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Nearest-Point-Of-Relief"][color=#0000CD]nearest point of relief[/color][/url][/i][color=#0000CD] accurately, the player must use the club with which he would have made his next [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"][color=#0000CD]stroke[/color][/url][color=#0000CD]", [/color][/i][color=#0000CD]the[i] must [/i]would mean having to determine the NPR every time. That would change the general principle that applies to all forms of relief at the moment: it doesn't matter how you measure or estimate or just guess, all that matters is that the ball is dropped in the correct place and ends up in the correct place.[/color]

[color=#0000CD]In summary, the Rules are worded with [i]should[/i] and [i]recommendation[/i] etc" in order to preserve this freedom to decide where to drop using any method you wish and to preserve the possibility of a correct drop regardless of the process of making it. But should you have to verify that a dropped ball is in play, the Definition of NPR makes it clear that the precise determination [b][i]must [/i][/b]be done with the club that would have been chosen - plus the same swing, direction of play etc.[/color]
[/quote]

Thank you. This makes sense to me.

[xxjonesyxx]

The fault I often see with people establishing NPR is they assume it will be somewhere they can have a nice unobstructed swing at it. So I would be interested in that newby please.
Neil

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1417751994' post='10546205']
For Cancun

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg"]https://www.youtube....h?v=kTcRRaXV-fg[/url]
[/quote]

I have an old VHS recording of a tv show from 1982 about these to guys, hosted by Milton Berle, and that tape is a treasure! This classic routine about baseball is also on that tape.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1417791888' post='10547647']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1417751994' post='10546205']
For Cancun

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg"]https://www.youtube....h?v=kTcRRaXV-fg[/url]
[/quote]

I have an old VHS recording of a tv show from 1982 about these to guys, hosted by Milton Berle, and that tape is a treasure! This classic routine about baseball is also on that tape.
[/quote]

I'll bet it's a riot!!!