Nearest Point of relief - club used

[KevCarter]

The fault I often see with people establishing NPR is they assume it will be somewhere they can have a nice unobstructed swing at it. So I would be interested in that newby please.

Neil

 

 

Not Newby, but hopefully will help...

 

 

24-2b/3

 

Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke

 

Q.In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

 

A.The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.

 

24-2b/3.5

 

Player Unable Physically to Determine Nearest Point of Relief

 

Q.In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used from the original position had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if a player is unable physically to determine the nearest point of relief because, for example, that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required address position?

 

A.The nearest point of relief in both cases must be estimated and the player must drop the ball within one club-length of the estimated point, not nearer the hole.

Decision related to 24-2b/3 and 24-2b/3.5:

 

• 33-8/19 Local Rule Permitting Relief on Specified Side of Paved Path.

 

24-2b/3.7

 

Diagram Illustrating Player Unable to Determine Nearest Point of Relief

 

The diagram illustrates the point raised in Decision <a href="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-24/#d24-2b-3.5" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; overflow: visible; color: rgb(0, 56, 101); background-color: transparent; text-decoration: none; outline-style: none; outline-width: 0px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; font-size: 1em; text-transform: inherit; font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">24-2b/3.5 where a player may be unable to determine the nearest point of relief from an immovable obstruction and will need to estimate this point under Rule 24-2b.

 

Related Decisions:

 

• 24-2b/1 Determining "Nearest Point of Relief."

• 25-1b/2 Diagrams Illustrating "Nearest Point of Relief."

 

[rogolf]

Or, as many need to be often reminded, NPR means the "[b]nearest[/b] point of relief", not the "[b]nicest[/b] point of relief."

[xxjonesyxx]

Thanks Kev! That one crops up all the time IMO.
Is it also correct that once you have ball in hand as u have decided to take relief, and then discover that NPR is actually a pretty poor option, you cannot then replace the ball where u originally were without penalty.

Thanks

Neil

[KevCarter]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1417798497' post='10548219']
Thanks Kev! That one crops up all the time IMO.
Is it also correct that once you have ball in hand as u have decided to take relief, and then discover that NPR is actually a pretty poor option, you cannot then replace the ball where u originally were without penalty.

Thanks

Neil
[/quote]

You are very welcome!

[Colin L]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417784764' post='10547225']
No. The club does not determine the NPR. I don't recall ever saying that the club made the determination.

The club (any club) is used to measure the drop zone after the NPR is established.
[/quote]

OK. Right answer; wrong reason. The club has everything to do with determining the NPR. If you would have used a wedge for the shot had the interference not been there, the NPR can only be established with a wedge. In my question I asked if using a driver would establish the NPR. It wouldn't. In my case, it would identify a spot some 43 cms (17") further from where the ball originally lay than the actual NPR established with my wedge.

But never mind. As you keep reminding us, I do not have to use my wedge or indeed any club at all in the process of deciding where to drop my ball. So I have marked the spot where the ball would be for a shot with my driver and I then measure a driver length from there and mark the spot. When I drop my ball, it hits the ground 20 cms inside of that mark. [color=#ff0000]Next yes/no question: have I made a correct drop?[/color]

[LeoLeo99]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1417802440' post='10548543']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417784764' post='10547225']
No. The club does not determine the NPR. I don't recall ever saying that the club made the determination.

The club (any club) is used to measure the drop zone after the NPR is established.
[/quote]

OK. Right answer; wrong reason. The club has everything to do with determining the NPR. If you would have used a wedge for the shot had the interference not been there, the NPR can only be established with a wedge. In my question I asked if using a driver would establish the NPR. It wouldn't. In my case, it would identify a spot some 43 cms (17") further from where the ball originally lay than the actual NPR established with my wedge.

But never mind. As you keep reminding us, I do not have to use my wedge or indeed any club at all in the process of deciding where to drop my ball. So I have marked the spot where the ball would be for a shot with my driver and I then measure a driver length from there and mark the spot. When I drop my ball, it hits the ground 20 cms inside of that mark. [color=#ff0000]Next yes/no question: have I made a correct drop?[/color]
[/quote]

Where does the ball come to rest after it hits the ground after your drop?

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1417803343' post='10548593']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1417802440' post='10548543']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417784764' post='10547225']
No. The club does not determine the NPR. I don't recall ever saying that the club made the determination.

The club (any club) is used to measure the drop zone after the NPR is established.
[/quote]

OK. Right answer; wrong reason. The club has everything to do with determining the NPR. If you would have used a wedge for the shot had the interference not been there, the NPR can only be established with a wedge. In my question I asked if using a driver would establish the NPR. It wouldn't. In my case, it would identify a spot some 43 cms (17") further from where the ball originally lay than the actual NPR established with my wedge.

But never mind. As you keep reminding us, I do not have to use my wedge or indeed any club at all in the process of deciding where to drop my ball. So I have marked the spot where the ball would be for a shot with my driver and I then measure a driver length from there and mark the spot. When I drop my ball, it hits the ground 20 cms inside of that mark. [color=#ff0000]Next yes/no question: have I made a correct drop?[/color]
[/quote]

Where does the ball come to rest after it hits the ground after your drop?
[/quote]

Not a bad question - but here is a better one you need to answer first - If it first hits the ground where Colin described, does it really matter where it rolls to and comes to rest?

[Guia]

Final Conclusion

[color=#000000][size=3]ou drop the ball on the side of the cart path where there is nearest complete relief. Complete releif does not mean that it is a good place to drop. There could be a tree in the way on the nearest relief side. That's tough cookies. It's would be easier to show you next time we're out, but here is a stab at it.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Do not lift the ball yet or place a mark where it is. Take complete relief from one side of the cart path with your stance. Using the club you would use for the shot, set the club up like you were making a shot. Put a tee in the ground where the club touches the ground. Do the same thing on the other side of the cart path. Measure the distance from both tees to the ball. Pick the closest one to the ball and that's your nearest point of relief. Most times it's obvious. It does matter if you are right or left-handed. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]You get one club length (any club in the bag) from that closest point of relief for the drop, no closer to the hole. It can roll up to 2 club lengths, no closer to the hole, before you have to re-drop. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Now you may use the club used to determine the nearest point of relief or any other club in the bag to make the shot.[/size][/color]

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417807544' post='10548983']
Final Conclusion

[color=#000000][size=3]ou drop the ball on the side of the cart path where there is nearest complete relief. Complete releif does not mean that it is a good place to drop. There could be a tree in the way on the nearest relief side. That's tough cookies. It's would be easier to show you next time we're out, but here is a stab at it.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Do not lift the ball yet or place a mark where it is. Take complete relief from one side of the cart path with your stance. Using the club you would use for the shot, set the club up like you were making a shot. Put a tee in the ground where the club touches the ground. Do the same thing on the other side of the cart path. Measure the distance from both tees to the ball. Pick the closest one to the ball and that's your nearest point of relief. Most times it's obvious. It does matter if you are right or left-handed. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]You get one club length (any club in the bag) from that closest point of relief for the drop, no closer to the hole. It can roll up to 2 club lengths, no closer to the hole, before you have to re-drop. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Now you may use the club used to determine the nearest point of relief or any other club in the bag to make the shot.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Guia, i think you nailed it!

[Colin L]

[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1417803343' post='10548593']

Where does the ball come to rest after it hits the ground after your drop?
[/quote]

As I described it, it was not a correct drop because it struck the course more than a club length from the NPR. The spot determined at the end of my driver was not the NPR but 43 cms further away from the original position of the ball than the NPR as correctly determined with my wedge. Rule 20-2b tells me my ball has to strike the course as required by the applicable Rule. In this instance the applicable Rule tells me my ball must first strike the course within 1 club length from the NPR.

It doesn't matter where it rolled to - it was an invalid drop as soon as it hit the ground where it did.

[Sawgrass]

This thread marks a rare occasion in which someone absolutely devoted to a wrong interpretation of the Rules made progress.

I'll try to remember it next time I feel like I'm wasting my time banging my head against the wall. Sincere congratulations to everyone, on both sides, who made it happen.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1417798497' post='10548219']
Thanks Kev! That one crops up all the time IMO.
Is it also correct that once you have ball in hand as u have decided to take relief, and then discover that NPR is actually a pretty poor option, you cannot then replace the ball where u originally were without penalty.

Thanks

Neil
[/quote]

That is correct.

[Newby]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417807544' post='10548983']
Final Conclusion

[color=#000000][size=3]ou drop the ball on the side of the cart path where there is nearest complete relief. Complete releif does not mean that it is a good place to drop. There could be a tree in the way on the nearest relief side. That's tough cookies. It's would be easier to show you next time we're out, but here is a stab at it.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Do not lift the ball yet or place a mark where it is. Take complete relief from one side of the cart path with your stance. Using the club you would use for the shot, set the club up like you were making a shot. Put a tee in the ground where the club touches the ground. Do the same thing on the other side of the cart path. Measure the distance from both tees to the ball. Pick the closest one to the ball and that's your nearest point of relief. Most times it's obvious. It does matter if you are right or left-handed. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]You get one club length (any club in the bag) from that closest point of relief for the drop, no closer to the hole. It can roll up to 2 club lengths, no closer to the hole, before you have to re-drop. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Now you may use the club used to determine the nearest point of relief or any other club in the bag to make the shot.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

[golow]

You guys suck. I was hoping to run into Guia in a CNote/CNote/Cnote Nassau and beg for his ball to split the difference coming to rest dead center on every cart path.

I'd win every hole with a cool double goin' away. Oh yeah, loss of hole baby.

Now I gotta punch the clock tomorrow and earn my money.
Did I mention that you guys suck ? [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]golow(TM)[/size]

[Guia]

I'm 74 and you couldn't beat me in match play the worst day in my life. Your not funny, your an A$$.

[golow]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417831943' post='10550695']
I'm 74 and you couldn't beat me in match play the worst day in my life. Your not funny, your an A$$.
[/quote]

I guess I'll stop being nice to you when others get frustrated and lash out a bit. I'll take the high road from here. Enjoy your days.

golow(TM)

[Guia]

GoLow: Maybe I over reacted at bit. But I have been beat on the head and shoulders a lot lately. However, I missed the humor in your post.

[golow]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417835071' post='10550939']
GoLow: Maybe I over reacted at bit. But I have been beat on the head and shoulders a lot lately. However, I missed the humor in your post.
[/quote]

No big deal. I took relief from a fence defining OB at my club for a few years until I got penalized in a tourney. I argued, I was wrong, embarrassed, now I laugh at it.

The rules are written like it's Old English.

I'm just jealous that you live in a warm place and I'm stuck in CT.

golow(TM)

[Guia]

Anyway, weather has been very good this month. It is supposed to be in the 50s tomorrow, sounds cold but our humidity is practically non-existent, so that is shirt sleeve golf.
Looking forward to playing, I just got some new irons weeks ago and still getting used to them. Went from TM RocketBladz to Karsten, big difference in the look, I prefer a smaller looking heads but they play like magic. Shooting high a little lower with them, averaging 78 - 82, not bad for an old guy from the mid tees.

[edwjmcgrath]

Just remember, don't take offence and don't take relief from a fence.

[mwmgolfx]

Sorry, I've been on the road without access to a computer for a while. Some golf but no computer. Anyway, I'm still a little confused about Nearest point of relief. I fully understand that it would be measured with the club I'm intending to play. But like one place I played at recently, the wind was really gusting and I do mean gusting. From 10MPH to over 40+. Depending upon the moment, for me that could be anywhere between a 7 iron and a 7 wood. And depending upon the moment I could easily play one or the other club. But thats a tremendous difference in place where i'd figure the nearest point of relief is(was)? and the type of shot to be taken. Would either club be acceptable to determine the NPR or just one club. It says the club that the shot would be normally taken with and in this case, its very easy to end up playing two different shots depending upon the moment in time.

Or should it always be the calm weather shot? I honestly don't know and understand this portion of determining the NPR. I know once I've determined that point, then doing the measurements and drops are pretty straight forward and I do understand the rules there, but I want to be sure about determining the NPR. I'm really trying to understand this thoroughly. unplayable is easy (relatively), but obstructions, ground under repair and some of the other ones where you get relief but what is the NPR point and how to determine that is my concern.

[Colin L]

You really don't have any more problem regarding the gusting wind than normal. Once you have determined your NPR with the club you would have used and dropped correctly within a club length (any club) you are free to play a different club if you wish. You do not have to play with the club you used to determine the NPR. Just make an honest choice of club you would have used without agonising over whether it's a one club wind one moment and a two club wind the next. You are not going to be committed to it when you come to play.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='mwmgolfx' timestamp='1418515335' post='10589573']
Depending upon the moment, for me that could be anywhere between a 7 iron and a 7 wood. And depending upon the moment I could easily play one or the other club. But thats a tremendous difference in place where i'd figure the nearest point of relief is(was)? and the type of shot to be taken. Would either club be acceptable to determine the NPR or just one club. It says the club that the shot would be normally taken with and in this case, its very easy to end up playing two different shots depending upon the moment in time.
[/quote]

No you don't have to use the 'calm weather' shot and either club would be perfectly acceptable. Don't over think it. Just make the best call you can at the time and once the decision is made, don't worry about it if the conditions change from second to second.

In that respect, it's really no different (actually easier) than actually having to play a shot in those same type of conditions. At some point, you have to commit to a shot, pick a club, and hit the ball. If you keep going back and forth to your bag and can't make up your mind, you are likely to get lynched by the others in your group or behind you for taking so long.

[wadesworld]

Just as an additional anecdote to this discussion, I remember a tournament where Phil called in a rules official because he was going to hit his next shot with a wood, but wanted to use his putter to determine his NPR. The rules officially flatly told him "no" and made him use the wood to determine NPR. He told him that once NPR was established, he was free to use his putter to measure one club length if he wanted. Of course Phil didn't - he used his driver to measure, once NPR had been established.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1418649044' post='10595153']
Just as an additional anecdote to this discussion, I remember a tournament where Phil called in a rules official because he was going to hit his next shot with a wood, but wanted to use his putter to determine his NPR. The rules officially flatly told him "no" and made him use the wood to determine NPR. He told him that once NPR was established, he was free to use his putter to measure one club length if he wanted. Of course Phil didn't - he used his driver to measure, once NPR had been established.
[/quote]

I of course can't say if I recall seeing the same thing that you did, but I did see Phil contradicted by an official for a club measuring question -- but my example is slightly and importantly different than yours and also consistent with my understanding of the Rules.

Phil used a club to take his stance and thereby determine the NPR. Then he bent down with that same club to measure the distance from the NPR in which he could take his drop. When that wasn't sufficient for his purposes, he wanted to switch to his driver for measuring -- but since he had already used the shorter club in his hands as a distance measuring tool (not a "determining NPR" tool) he was required to use the same club for any distance measuring he was going to do in that whole circumstance. If he had simply switched to the driver the first time he measured drop distance, he would have been okay.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418653692' post='10595387']
Phil used a club to take his stance and thereby determine the NPR. Then he bent down with that same club to measure the distance from the NPR in which he could take his drop. When that wasn't sufficient for his purposes, he wanted to switch to his driver for measuring -- but since he had already used the shorter club in his hands as a distance measuring tool (not a "determining NPR" tool) he was required to use the same club for any distance measuring he was going to do in that whole circumstance. If he had simply switched to the driver the first time he measured drop distance, he would have been okay.
[/quote]

Had he dropped his ball or not? That makes the difference. If he had, he is no longer allowed to change the club for measuring. If he had not, he can choose any club he wants.

[Sawgrass]

He had not dropped his ball, he simply measured in one direction and then wished to measure in an alternative direction. The official stated that once he had "selected" a club for measurement he was committed to it. (I found that odd, given my observation that he might have been using a shorter club in an effort to estimate the lenght of his longer club as he quickly went about his business.)

Where should we look in the Rules for definitive direction on this?

[rogolf]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418744567' post='10600689']
He had not dropped his ball, he simply measured in one direction and then wished to measure in an alternative direction. The official stated that once he had "selected" a club for measurement he was committed to it. (I found that odd, given my observation that he might have been using a shorter club in an effort to estimate the lenght of his longer club as he quickly went about his business.)

Where should we look in the Rules for definitive direction on this?
[/quote]

Perhaps the official wasn't correct? It happens.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1418745340' post='10600767']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418744567' post='10600689']
He had not dropped his ball, he simply measured in one direction and then wished to measure in an alternative direction. The official stated that once he had "selected" a club for measurement he was committed to it. (I found that odd, given my observation that he might have been using a shorter club in an effort to estimate the lenght of his longer club as he quickly went about his business.)

Where should we look in the Rules for definitive direction on this?
[/quote]

Perhaps the official wasn't correct? It happens.
[/quote]

To me, 20/1 seems to support the ref's ruling if you focus on the last sentence. While the situation described is not the same, it still seems to apply. I'm curious as to what Mr. Bean might offer as an alternative resource.

Q.A player, taking relief under a Rule, uses his driver to measure the one club-length or two club-lengths prescribed in the relevant Rule. He drops a ball correctly and the ball rolls less than two driver-lengths, but more than two putter-lengths, from where the ball first struck a part of the course when dropped.

Under Rule 20-2c, a dropped ball must be re-dropped if it rolls more than two club-lengths. If the ball comes to rest in a poor lie, may the player opt to use his putter to measure the distance his ball has rolled, in which case he would re-drop under Rule 20-2c and escape the poor lie?

A.No. The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation.

[Stuart_G]

I think this is a ref to the incident you were recalling:


[url="http://www.farbtalk.com/2013/05/phil-mickelson-and-rule-20-2c.html"]http://www.farbtalk....rule-20-2c.html[/url]


It appears he wanted to use a putter for measuring the max 2 club length roll for a drop that was made for stroke and distance/OB - not relief from an immovable obstruction. No NPR in his case.