Nearest Point of relief - club used

[Guia]

Sorry, auto spell, I didn't catch it.

NPR would be where the obstruction no longer interferes with the swing.

[golow]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417744918' post='10545595']NPR would be where the obstruction no longer interferes with the swing.
[/quote]
... a pantomime swing with the club you would likely use to hit said shot. You don't need to pull out the Adam Scott putter to do this. If you do pull the Adam Scott putter and lightly swing it you will likely be penalized while in the scorers tent because everyone on eath would call that one in.

Once you determine the NPR feel free to lay that monstrosity of a putter on the lawn cuz you are good to go.

Note how P1 is just inches from the ball in example one ... NPR is not determined by any club or linear measurement.

[size=4][attachment=2522951:pointofrelief_right.jpg][/size]

[size=4]OP asked about determining NPR not drop zone. [/size]

You are not dumb ... your brain just got locked in on the drop

golow™

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417744918' post='10545595']
Sorry, auto spell, I didn't catch it.

NPR would be where the obstruction no longer interferes with the swing.
[/quote]

The swing with...what club?

[Guia]

I'm not going to bite.

[HitEmTrue]

golow™,

There's the picture I was hoping would get posted!

Really think this is worthy of one of those USGA videos.

[rogolf]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417744918' post='10545595']
Sorry, auto spell, I didn't catch it.

[b]NPR would be where the obstruction no longer interferes with the swing.[/b]
[/quote]

Let's go one step further - by definition the NPR is the nearest [b]point[/b] (to where the ball originally lay), no nearer the hole, [b]at which the ball would lie [/b]to avoid interference by a stroke [b]with the club that the player would normally use for the next stroke[/b]. Once that [b]point[/b] has been determined, the player can measure [b]one club length from that point[/b] with any club, and is required to drop within that one club length [b]distance[/b].

And, I have seen a player use a club other than a driver to measure the club length(s). In fact, this player used his short putter to measure for relief from a temporary immovable obstruction (TIO). He used his putter because using a driver would have put him behind another separate TIO and relief from that second TIO would have meant he had to drop in 18 inch rough rather than on a tee box. It was actually his caddie that recognized the progression, as the player wasn't thinking very clearly after a bad shot. That's the advantage of using "any club" to measure the [b]distance[/b] from the nearest [b]point[/b] of relief.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417746168' post='10545731']
I'm not going to bite.
[/quote]

Ok, but the diagram just posted was created by the USGA, and it contains the answer.

[Guia]

I don't have any problem with the diagram or the answer. Just with your leading question.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417747818' post='10545885']
I don't have any problem with the diagram or the answer. Just with your leading question.
[/quote]

Is your answer different than it was a few hours ago?

[Cancun]

[list]
[*]“I didn’t dig the hole, others dug it”
[/list][list]
[*][color=#b22222][i]Who dug it?[/i][/color]
[/list][list]
[*]No, I’m telling you others did
[/list][list]
[*][color=#b22222][i]That’s why I’m asking you: Who dug it?[/i][/color]
[/list][list]
[*]No, who didn’t!
[/list][list]
[*][color=#b22222][i]I don’t want to know who didn’t dig it but who dug it![/i][/color]
[/list][list]
[*]WHO DIDN’T DIG IT!!!
[/list]

Guys: I just read Abbott and Costello’s famous “Who’s on First”. When I say that I just read it, I mean that I [i][u]also[/u][/i] read the original version, but this is pretty much the same LOL.

Guia: I don’t know if you’re doing this on purpose or not but I have the impression that you need to study the Rules, beginning with the definitions. Of course I may be wrong, so please don’t take this the wrong way. Anyway: the discussion is really funny.

I know some of the guys who have been trying to explain some concepts may disagree with me, but there is a humorous side of this and I’m telling you: It’s “W[i]ho’s on First[/i]” all over again!

BTW, for those of you who haven’t read or watched “Who’s on First”: It’s worth your time. A basic web search on “who’s on first” will lead you to video or script.

BTW: The answer for this thread was given in posts 2 and 3

Have a good night gentlemen!

[Guia]

No. He asked what club could he use and said any in the bag. I said nothing and did not address on how to determine the nearest place of relief, or how to establish it.

[KevCarter]

For Cancun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417749398' post='10546011']
No. He asked what club could he use and said any in the bag. I said nothing and did not address on how to determine the nearest place of relief, or how to establish it.
[/quote]


[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417724400' post='10543615']
The video addresses determining the nearest point of relief for a drop when using a club for measurement.

This is what the OP wrote in his question: [color=#282828]My question concerns the NPR is measured by the club that would be used for the shot at the time. Does that mean the shot that finally would be used or a club that might be used. For example, its very gusty and the wind speed is seriously changing = 2-3 clubs worth. Its entirely possible that just before I hit the wind starts up seriously and I would then go right back to my back and get a bit more club (i've gotten as much as 2-3 clubs more or even more at times). Would I measure with the last club or the normal club. Or another scenario, I might decide to try for the green with a wood or layup with a wedge and the wind would be a major factor in this. Which club would I use to measure. Both are very viable options depending upon the exact moments I would hit the ball.[/color]
[/quote]

[Guia]

The part of the video I was interested in was the part about what club could be used. I guess I assumed incorrectly that my post was confused with determining NPR.

I was only pointing out that when taking a measurement any club in the bag could be used. I addressed nothing else.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417753367' post='10546335']
The part of the video I was interested in was the part about what club could be used. I guess I assumed incorrectly that my post was confused with determining NPR.

I was only pointing out that when taking a measurement any club in the bag could be used. I addressed nothing else.
[/quote]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417724400' post='10543615']
[size=5][b]The video addresses determining the nearest point of relief for a drop when using a club for measurement.[/b][/size]

This is what the OP wrote in his question: [color=#282828]My question concerns the NPR is measured by the club that would be used for the shot at the time. Does that mean the shot that finally would be used or a club that might be used. For example, its very gusty and the wind speed is seriously changing = 2-3 clubs worth. Its entirely possible that just before I hit the wind starts up seriously and I would then go right back to my back and get a bit more club (i've gotten as much as 2-3 clubs more or even more at times). Would I measure with the last club or the normal club. Or another scenario, I might decide to try for the green with a wood or layup with a wedge and the wind would be a major factor in this. Which club would I use to measure. Both are very viable options depending upon the exact moments I would hit the ball.[/color]
[/quote]

[Guia]

Okay. So not a good video to make my point.

Again, my OP only addressed that the player was/is not limited to what club is used when taking a measurement. Nothing else.

[LeoLeo99]

This is a humorous thread. But here is a question: I'm playing a very long par 5 and instead of my normal booming 300 yard drive with a 5 yard draw, my drive stays out to the right a bit and my ball winds up with some cart path interference. My NPR will be on the right side of the cart path and I'm right handed. If I get a good lie on my drop, I'll go for the green with driver off the deck but if I get a bad lie, I'll lay up and go with a wedge. I estimate my probability of a good lie at 50%. Is my NPR where I'd hit the wedge or where I'd hit the driver?

@Guia, We're all in agreement that when you measure a club length, you can use any club and most people use the driver.

Look at the diagram above in post #61. In my example, my NPR is point P2. P2 might be 3 feet away from point B2 if I plan to use wedge but P2 might be 5 feet away from point B2 if I plan to hit driver. If the NPR is point P1 it doesn't matter what club is used, the NPR won't change. But if the NPR is point P2 then the club matters. That's the crux of the problem.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1417755909' post='10546513']
This is a humorous thread. But here is a question: I'm playing a very long par 5 and instead of my normal booming 300 yard drive with a 5 yard draw, my drive stays out to the right a bit and my ball winds up with some cart path interference. My NPR will be on the right side of the cart path and I'm right handed. If I get a good lie on my drop, I'll go for the green with driver off the deck but if I get a bad lie, I'll lay up and go with a wedge. I estimate my probability of a good lie at 50%. Is my NPR where I'd hit the wedge or where I'd hit the driver?

@Guia, We're all in agreement that when you measure a club length, you can use any club and most people use the driver.

Look at the diagram above in post #61. In my example, my NPR is point P2. P2 might be 3 feet away from point B2 if I plan to use wedge but P2 might be 5 feet away from point B2 if I plan to hit driver. If the NPR is point P1 it doesn't matter what club is used, the NPR won't change. But if the NPR is point P2 then the club matters. That's the crux of the problem.
[/quote]

Not exact, but a pretty good idea on how you should proceed:

[b][size=4]RELIEF FROM IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTIONS[/size][/b]

[size=4][b]24-2b/1[/b] [/size][b][size=4]Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"[/size][/b]

[color=#000000][size=3][size=4][color=red][b]Q.[/b][/color]The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?[/size][/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3][size=4][color=red][b]A.[/b][/color]No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green.[/size][/size][/color]

[rogolf]

[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1417755909' post='10546513']
This is a humorous thread. But here is a question: I'm playing a very long par 5 and instead of my normal booming 300 yard drive with a 5 yard draw, my drive stays out to the right a bit and my ball winds up with some cart path interference. My NPR will be on the right side of the cart path and I'm right handed. If I get a good lie on my drop, I'll go for the green with driver off the deck but if I get a bad lie, I'll lay up and go with a wedge. I estimate my probability of a good lie at 50%. Is my NPR where I'd hit the wedge or where I'd hit the driver?

@Guia, We're all in agreement that when you measure a club length, you can use any club and most people use the driver.

Look at the diagram above in post #61. In my example, my NPR is point P2. P2 might be 3 feet away from point B2 if I plan to use wedge but P2 might be 5 feet away from point B2 if I plan to hit driver. If the NPR is point P1 it doesn't matter what club is used, the NPR won't change. But if the NPR is point P2 then the club matters. That's the crux of the problem.
[/quote]

It's what club you would use for your next stroke [b]if the cart path was not there[/b], ie, where the ball now lies - not the club you might choose after the drop. It becomes a matter of integrity, and may be challenged.

[Guia]

Okay, here is a question. Why do you determine that the relief is on the right side of path because you are right handed?

My understanding is if the ball is on the right side of the path, or in the middle, then the NPR is on the right side. If the ball is on the left side of the path, then the relief would be taken on the left?

Okay, rule experts, where is the correct relief?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417757238' post='10546569']
Okay, here is a question. Why do you determine that the relief is on the right side of path because you are right handed?

My understanding is if the ball is on the right side of the path, or in the middle, then the NPR is on the right side. If the ball is on the left side of the path, then the relief would be taken on the left?

Okay, rule experts, where is the correct relief?
[/quote]

It depends. There are many variables. It is always the nearest point allowing complete relief from the obstruction.

[Guia]

I'll agree with that. It has nothing to do with wether you are right handed or left handed.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417757444' post='10546585']
I'll agree with that. It has nothing to do with wether you are right handed or left handed.
[/quote]

I'm thrilled you agree with me.

[Guia]

I knew you secretly desired my validation.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417757238' post='10546569']
Okay, here is a question. Why do you determine that the relief is on the right side of path because you are right handed?

My understanding is if the ball is on the right side of the path, or in the middle, then the NPR is on the right side. If the ball is on the left side of the path, then the relief would be taken on the left?

[/quote]

It is to whichever side has the NEAREST point of relief. For a right handed golfer, it will be on the left side path even if the ball is a little to the right of the center line of the path (assuming path is running in the direction of play).

It does matter if golfer is right or left handed.

The diagram at the top of this page shows why.

[Guia]

The diagram show 2 different ball positions, one on the left, where the relief is on the left. The 2nd ball position is on the right so the NPR is on the right.

 

I am doing some further research into this. I will return.

[Guia]

[b] Rule 24-2[/b]

[b] Taking "complete relief" from Obstruction[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3][b]Q. [/b]What is meant by the phrase, "taking complete relief" from an obstruction?[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3][b]A. [/b]When a player is taking relief from an immovable obstruction, he must determine the point where there is no interference from the lie of ball, stance, and area of intended swing. For example, if the ball lies on a cart path, the ball must be dropped at a point where the cart path does not interfere with the lie of the ball, his stance, and also the area of intended swing. If the ball comes to rest in such a position, it must be re-dropped (Rule 20-2c(v)).[/size][/color]

The rule says nothing about if the player is right handed or left handed. The mentioned diagram show relief is dependent upon where the ball lies on the path.

However, obviously if you could not get full relief from the side the balls lies, then the other side would be the NPR. Relief is not depended on your right/left handedness.

[QEight]

The diagram show 2 different ball positions, one on the left, where the relief is on the left. The 2nd ball position is on the right so the NPR is on the right.

 

I am doing some further research into this. I will return.

 

The width of the path may also affect the side the NPR is.

 

Rule 24-2

 

Taking "complete relief" from Obstruction

 

Q. What is meant by the phrase, "taking complete relief" from an obstruction?

A. When a player is taking relief from an immovable obstruction, he must determine the point where there is no interference from the lie of ball, stance, and area of intended swing. For example, if the ball lies on a cart path, the ball must be dropped at a point where the cart path does not interfere with the lie of the ball, his stance, and also the area of intended swing. If the ball comes to rest in such a position, it must be re-dropped (Rule 20-2c(v)).

 

The rule says nothing about if the player is right handed or left handed. The mentioned diagram show relief is dependent upon where the ball lies on the path.

 

However, obviously if you could not get full relief from the side the balls lies, then the other side would be the NPR. Relief is not depended on your right/left handedness.

 

You are right that it is not automatic, but the right/left handedness may (will) affect how the NPR determination process goes. Especially if you are on narrow path with 3w in your hand and ball close to the middle of path. Not rocket science.

[Guia]

Sure, if the path was so wide that you could not take full relief on side where the ball is nearest, then logically you would move to the other side if full relief was available on that side.

I would assume that if the ball was in the middle of the path you get your choice as to nearest relief. If that is the case then I certainly would choose the side that is advantageous to my swing as the NPR.

[QEight]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417760553' post='10546689']
Sure, if the path was so wide that you could not take full relief on side where the ball is nearest, then logically you would move to the other side if full relief was available on that side.
[/quote]

hmmm very difficult for me to vision so wide path that it would force me to another side. I was more thinking a case where the path was so narrow that even if the ball was lying e.g. on the right side of the path the NPR would actually be on left side.