Nearest Point of relief - club used

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418745926' post='10600819']
I think this is a ref to the incident you were recalling:


[url="http://www.farbtalk.com/2013/05/phil-mickelson-and-rule-20-2c.html"]http://www.farbtalk....rule-20-2c.html[/url]


It appears he wanted to use a putter for measuring the max 2 club length roll for a drop that was made for stroke and distance/OB - not relief from an immovable obstruction. No NPR in his case.
[/quote]

That seem to be the appropriate case, Stuart. Thanks.

Nevertheless, whatever happened there, I'm still curious as to what the correct ruling is when prior to taking a drop you measure your area of "potential drop" with club A. Then you drop. I'd still say that you're stuck with club A to measure the movement of the ball from the point it hit, and if I read Mr. Bean correctly he disagrees.

[rogolf]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418746475' post='10600851']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418745926' post='10600819']
I think this is a ref to the incident you were recalling:


[url="http://www.farbtalk.com/2013/05/phil-mickelson-and-rule-20-2c.html"]http://www.farbtalk....rule-20-2c.html[/url]


It appears he wanted to use a putter for measuring the max 2 club length roll for a drop that was made for stroke and distance/OB - not relief from an immovable obstruction. No NPR in his case.
[/quote]

That seem to be the appropriate case, Stuart. Thanks.

Nevertheless, whatever happened there, I'm still curious as to what the correct ruling is when prior to taking a drop you measure your area of "potential drop" with club A. Then you drop. I'd still say that you're stuck with club A to measure the movement of the ball from the point it hit, and if I read Mr. Bean correctly he disagrees.
[/quote]
Imo, once the ball has been dropped, it's final as to which club will be used. Before a ball has been put into play, I'd allow a player to switch measuring clubs.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1418748270' post='10601023']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418746475' post='10600851']

That seem to be the appropriate case, Stuart. Thanks.

Nevertheless, whatever happened there, I'm still curious as to what the correct ruling is when prior to taking a drop you measure your area of "potential drop" with club A. Then you drop. I'd still say that you're stuck with club A to measure the movement of the ball from the point it hit, and if I read Mr. Bean correctly he disagrees.
[/quote]
Imo, once the ball has been dropped, it's final as to which club will be used. Before a ball has been put into play, I'd allow a player to switch measuring clubs.
[/quote][quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1418748270' post='10601023']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418746475' post='10600851']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418745926' post='10600819']
I think this is a ref to the incident you were recalling:


[url="http://www.farbtalk.com/2013/05/phil-mickelson-and-rule-20-2c.html"]http://www.farbtalk....rule-20-2c.html[/url]


It appears he wanted to use a putter for measuring the max 2 club length roll for a drop that was made for stroke and distance/OB - not relief from an immovable obstruction. No NPR in his case.
[/quote]

That seem to be the appropriate case, Stuart. Thanks.

Nevertheless, whatever happened there, I'm still curious as to what the correct ruling is when prior to taking a drop you measure your area of "potential drop" with club A. Then you drop. I'd still say that you're stuck with club A to measure the movement of the ball from the point it hit, and if I read Mr. Bean correctly he disagrees.
[/quote]
Imo, once the ball has been dropped, it's final as to which club will be used. Before a ball has been put into play, I'd allow a player to switch measuring clubs.
[/quote]

Believe me, I could be happy with that opinion, but it is inconsistent with 20/1's statement "[color=#000000][size=2]The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation." [/size][/color]I wish I could read something that says the measuring-club-establishment only begins after a ball has been dropped. I trust we both agree that taken literally, 20/1 says otherwise (though it might conceivably mean something else). While I certainly respect your and Mr. Bean's opinions, and they give me pause, I can't help being influenced more by that segment of 20/1. (That doesn't mean that I'm certain -- I'm not. It only means that left on my own I'd have to rule differently.)

[Colin L]

I don't see inconsistency here. if you measure a club length from your NPR with a driver D20/1 makes it quite clear that if your ball is dropped correctly and rolls no more than 2 driver lengths you cannot [i]then[/i] measure with a shorter club to claim a re-drop because it has rolled more than two of that club's lengths. It's clear that the Decision is about a ball that has been dropped and is, in fact, in play.

What the Decision does not do is to say anything about what you can or cannot do in the process of assessing your best move prior to dropping. Your NPR is a fixed point, determined by the club you would have used. It is not a measurement and so you haven't started any measurement process. There is nothing said anywhere to prevent you trying out different clubs to assess which club length from the NPR to choose according to where your ball might end up after dropping. Seems in fact like a sound tactic.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418760275' post='10602047']
Your NPR is a fixed point, determined by the club you would have used. It is not a measurement and so you haven't started any measurement process. There is nothing said anywhere to prevent you trying out different clubs to assess which club length from the NPR to choose according to where your ball might end up after dropping. Seems in fact like a sound tactic.
[/quote]

Yes, the NPR is a fixed point, determined by the club you would have used. It is not a measurement and as such you haven't started any measurement process. But, after determining the NPR but before you drop you access the range of area in which you may drop with a short putter -- you have now selected a club for measurement purposes. I continue to believe that you're thereby "stuck" with that putter even though you haven't dropped yet. The "sound tactic" in my mind is using a driver rather than a putter to begin with, thereby establishing the most possible freedom -- or conversely deliberately selecting a short club if your greater fear is what happens if the dropped ball bounces away.

[Newby]

Sawgrass

The decision is about a ball having been dropped. If the RBs had intended to make it applicable prior to dropping the decision would have started with the situation of a ball not yet dropped. This would have covered both situations. They must have made the start point the drop for that particular reason.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418771015' post='10602847']
Sawgrass

The decision is about a ball having been dropped. If the RBs had intended to make it applicable prior to dropping the decision would have started with the situation of a ball not yet dropped. This would have covered both situations. They must have made the start point the drop for that particular reason.
[/quote]

Precisely.

And Sawgrass, how could a player decide which club would suit him best if he could not try them out before proceeding with dropping his ball?

D20/1 clearly means you cannot change a club between measurings of dropping area and rolling distance.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418772588' post='10602973']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418771015' post='10602847']
Sawgrass

The decision is about a ball having been dropped. If the RBs had intended to make it applicable prior to dropping the decision would have started with the situation of a ball not yet dropped. This would have covered both situations. They must have made the start point the drop for that particular reason.
[/quote]



D20/1 clearly means you cannot change a club between measurings of dropping area and rolling distance.
[/quote]

You've come around to my way of thinking?

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1417727018' post='10543927'][b] RELIEF FROM IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTIONS[/b]


[b] 24-2b/1[/b]

[b] Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"[/b]

Q.The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions <a href="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.7">20-2c/0.7 and [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.8"]20-2c/0.8[/url].[/quote]

http://youtu.be/Sf8ZXCqd6ts

[Colin L]

[color=#0000ff][size=3]The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation....[/size][/color]

If I expand that statement to include the implicit words it would read,

[color=#0000ff][size=3]The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring[/size][/color][color=#ff0000][size=3] [the distance from the prescribed point within which the ball must first strike the course[/size][/color][color=#0000ff][size=3]] for all measuring in a given situation,[/size][/color]

That is what it is saying to me. Now, if I check out the possibility of my ball ending up in a bush using a driver length by actually measuring it with my driver, what have I measured if I then decide not to use my driver but a shorter club? Nothing more than a possibility, a rejected option which, since I have decided to use a shorter club does not define th[i][size=4][color=#000000]e distance from the prescribed point within which the ball must first strike the course. [/color][/size][/i][color=#000000]The action of trying out and rejecting the use of a particular club is not relevant to that Decision because that was the not the [/color][color=#000000]measurement originally [i][b]used. [/b][/i]It was made. but not used[i][b].[/b][/i][/color]

[QEight]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418794583' post='10605381']
Now, if I check out the possibility of my ball ending up in a bush using a driver length by actually measuring it with my driver, what have I measured if I then decide not to use my driver but a shorter club?
[/quote]

I agree, otherwise we would have to define what measurement actually is. Do I have to lay the club on ground, do I have to mark the end with tee or whatever.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418789311' post='10604949']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418772588' post='10602973']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418771015' post='10602847']
Sawgrass

The decision is about a ball having been dropped. If the RBs had intended to make it applicable prior to dropping the decision would have started with the situation of a ball not yet dropped. This would have covered both situations. They must have made the start point the drop for that particular reason.
[/quote]



D20/1 clearly means you cannot change a club between measurings of dropping area and rolling distance.
[/quote]

You've come around to my way of thinking?
[/quote]

I think he was agreeing with Newby.

[HitEmTrue]

The rule doesn't even require a club to be used to measure. So if the player doesn't like how far it bounced, so I suppose the player could say that he would have used a wedge to do all the measuring? ( assuming the wedge would have worked for where the ball struck the course )

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418823180' post='10606143']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418789311' post='10604949']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418772588' post='10602973']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418771015' post='10602847']
Sawgrass

The decision is about a ball having been dropped. If the RBs had intended to make it applicable prior to dropping the decision would have started with the situation of a ball not yet dropped. This would have covered both situations. They must have made the start point the drop for that particular reason.
[/quote]



D20/1 clearly means you cannot change a club between measurings of dropping area and rolling distance.
[/quote]

You've come around to my way of thinking?
[/quote]

I think he was agreeing with Newby.
[/quote]

Indeed I was and I am.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418823506' post='10606161']
The rule doesn't even require a club to be used to measure. So if the player doesn't like how far it bounced, so I suppose the player could say that he would have used a wedge to do all the measuring? ( assuming the wedge would have worked for where the ball struck the course )
[/quote]

I'm sure if you don't use a club to measure your drop, and rather guess at it, you're free to use whichever club you want to later measure the roll distance. And if you use a short club to do that second job, I'd presume you retroactively have to assure yourself that your drop initially hit within the proscribed number of "short club lengths" from the NPR you were allowed.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418825718' post='10606297']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418823180' post='10606143']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418789311' post='10604949']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418772588' post='10602973']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418771015' post='10602847']
Sawgrass

The decision is about a ball having been dropped. If the RBs had intended to make it applicable prior to dropping the decision would have started with the situation of a ball not yet dropped. This would have covered both situations. They must have made the start point the drop for that particular reason.
[/quote]



D20/1 clearly means you cannot change a club between measurings of dropping area and rolling distance.
[/quote]

You've come around to my way of thinking?
[/quote]

I think he was agreeing with Newby.
[/quote]

Indeed I was and I am.
[/quote]

Yet the statement of yours I isolated agrees with me. And with what seems to be the one piece of evidence in the Rules we have to go on.

I get that 20/1 is about an occasion when the drop has occurred first, and that's not the situation I've pursued. But it's all we've got to go on as far as I can tell, and it's a piece of evidence that suggests that you don't have to drop first to be committed to a measuring club. Every counter argument I've heard sounds simply like speculation to me, the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.

Curmudgeonly yours,

Sawgrass

[Newby]

Sawgrass

How do handle the situation where the player, prior to dropping, places two clubs side by side, in order to estimate which will give him the better outcome?

[QEight]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418826484' post='10606361']
Every counter argument I've heard sounds simply like speculation to me, the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.
[/quote]

So you hit your ball on side of green near lateral water hazard. You leave your cart on the other side of the green (50 yards away) and got to the ball with your wedge and your putter. Then you find the ball has trickled into hazard. You quickly measure/estimate how far you could get with your wedge and then find out the length of the driver would let you back in business. You could not anymore fetch your driver from 50 yards away or estimate the dropping area based on length of driver?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418827124' post='10606433']
Sawgrass

How do handle the situation where the player, prior to dropping, places two clubs side by side, in order to estimate which will give him the better outcome?
[/quote]

That's a tough call. But IMO, it's the very same tough call that would present itself if a player dropped first then wanted to measure afterward - a situation in which we all believe he is only entitled to use the "selected" club. How would you handle that? The first club to hit the ground? The first club out of his bag?

[Colin L]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418826484' post='10606361'][color=#0000cd] the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.[/color]

Curmudgeonly yours,

Sawgrass
[/quote]

And my point was that by trying out two different clubs in order to check your better option you have not yet [i]measured[/i] in terms of Decision 20/1.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1418827724' post='10606481']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418826484' post='10606361']
Every counter argument I've heard sounds simply like speculation to me, the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.
[/quote]

So you hit your ball on side of green near lateral water hazard. You leave your cart on the other side of the green (50 yards away) and got to the ball with your wedge and your putter. Then you find the ball has trickled into hazard. You quickly measure/estimate how far you could get with your wedge and then find out the length of the driver would let you back in business. You could not anymore fetch your driver from 50 yards away or estimate the dropping area based on length of driver?
[/quote]

As in my above reply to Newby, that problem exists as well if you've already dropped. But my guess in your situation is that the player used his wedge to estimate the length of his driver, so his driver was for all practical purposes the club he "selected."

[Colin L]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418829513' post='10606627']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418827124' post='10606433']
Sawgrass

How do handle the situation where the player, prior to dropping, places two clubs side by side, in order to estimate which will give him the better outcome?
[/quote]

That's a tough call. But IMO, it's the very same tough call that would present itself if a player dropped first then wanted to measure afterward - a situation in which we all believe he is only entitled to use the "selected" club. How would you handle that? The first club to hit the ground? The first club out of his bag?
[/quote]

I would simply make sure that he was clear about which club he had chosen to measure with just in case his drop had to be verified later.

[Newby]

The question is 'which rule spells it out?'. The decision certainly doesn't.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418829616' post='10606635']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418826484' post='10606361'][color=#0000cd] the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.[/color]

Curmudgeonly yours,

Sawgrass
[/quote]

And my point was that by trying out two different clubs in order to check your better option you have not yet [i]measured[/i] in terms of Decision 20/1.
[/quote]

Colin, your post #159 above, with the expanded statement, seemed to me to agree with me. I presume you weren't intending to agree, but yet it said that the club you use to measure prior to dropping is the measurement club you selected, right? The small point I'm defending here is that IMO you don't have to drop first to have established a measuring club for the subject situation.

But your statement here in this post would sound disengenuous to me if presented to me by a player. You used two clubs to "check" but that checking wasn't measuring? Really?

[Newby]

Measuring involves actual distances. Usinf two clubs for information is only for getting relative distances. That is not measuring in the same way that determining npr.

[rogolf]

Let me offer a potential solution for the player who doesn’t measure at all. This potential outcome is premised on a couple of points – to get play moving again and to minimize the number of times the player gets his hand on the ball. There are two issues for the player who did not use any club to measure – is the drop a “good” drop, ie, within the required dropping area, and did the ball roll more than two club lengths from the spot where it first struck a part of the course? If it’s not a “good” drop, how far it rolled is irrelevant.

One could suggest that the first question (is this a “good” drop?) needs to be resolved first. Since he didn’t measure at all, we have all of his clubs to choose from. My preference, as a referee, would be to make this a “good” drop. Hence the player could choose any club that accomplishes this, but not a shorter club. Once that club is identified by the player, he would use that club for all measurements dealing with the current situation.

[HitEmTrue]

Here's one thing I love about this discussion. I'm sure Sawgrass (and actually, the others, too), would be perfectly fine being wrong if a definitive truth is determined or a convincing argument made.

Sawgrass, I would suggest that the lack of a measurement requirement before dropping actually goes against what you are saying. That nothing has been set in stone (measured) until the drop actually occurs.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418833962' post='10607073']
Here's one thing I love about this discussion. I'm sure Sawgrass (and actually, the others, too), would be perfectly fine being wrong if a definitive truth is determined or a convincing argument made.

Sawgrass, I would suggest that the lack of a measurement requirement before dropping actually goes against what you are saying. That nothing has been set in stone (measured) until the drop actually occurs.
[/quote]

That's an interesting argument. Not definitive to be sure, but like some other arguments here, an interesting speculation.

And yes, I'd much rather be wrong than uncertain. Nevertheless, the one stake in the ground we do have is 20/1's simple statement: "[color=#000000][size=2]The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation.[/size][/color] " So what I suppose we're left with is the surprising question of when a measurement has occurred. We can all agree that a club hasn't been used for measuring if no club was pulled. What I can't get myself to agree to is the thought expressed by Newby and others here that there is a difference between "measuring" and using a club or clubs to "gather information regarding relative distances." In my heart of hearts, that's all measuring.

The truth is that I still feel that the Rules tell us I'm right. But I'll state the obvious and say that there's a whole lot of smart people here who think I'm wrong . . . and that's certainly not confidence inspiring for me!

[HitEmTrue]

Sawgrass, I volunteer you to submit a scenario to the USGA.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418837811' post='10607383']
Sawgrass, I volunteer you to submit a scenario to the USGA.
[/quote]

I bet they would tell him to read D20/1...

Sawgrass, as I tried to explain and as others have already explained D20/1 is about [u]continuing with measuring[/u]. Before you have dropped your ball you have every right to estimate the area you are about to drop in and for that estimatiing you may use whichever club you have and as many times as you wish. It is only once you have selected a club to be actually used AND you have dropped your ball you are bound to that very club.

I encourage you to accept this and to move on.