Nearest Point of relief - club used

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418842490' post='10607799']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418837811' post='10607383']
Sawgrass, I volunteer you to submit a scenario to the USGA.
[/quote]

I bet they would tell him to read D20/1...

Sawgrass, as I tried to explain and as others have already explained D20/1 is about [u]continuing with measuring[/u]. Before you have dropped your ball you have every right to estimate the area you are about to drop in and for that estimatiing you may use whichever club you have and as many times as you wish. It is only once you have selected a club to be actually used AND you have dropped your ball you are bound to that very club.

I encourage you to accept this and to move on.
[/quote]

Mr. Bean, as I said early on, you may be right and I may be wrong. But you've provided nothing but your predetermined point of view as evidence of the idea that measuring an area in which to drop does not count as measuring until after you drop.

I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring. But I won't, because I don't know for sure. How is it that you are so certain? Have you been informed of this by a RB? If so, I would happily accept that as fact and move on. (And again, it hasn't escaped me that if we were all to vote on who was right I'd lose in a landslide.)

[HitEmTrue]

Sawgrass,

Let's say Dirk Nowitzki is playing with me (7-foot tall basketball player, for those who may not know ).

if I take my first, um, measurement with Dirk's (longer than mine) driver, have I breached any rules? Now that I have any idea of what I want to do, is it OK to get my driver out of my bag and do a real measurement before dropping?

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring.
[/quote]

[b][i]Measure[/i][/b]

[size=3]to ascertain the size, amount, or degree of (something) by using an instrument or device marked in standard units.[/size]

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418844482' post='10607999']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring.
[/quote]

[b][i]Measure[/i][/b]

[size=3]to ascertain the size, amount, or degree of (something) by using an instrument or device marked in standard units.[/size]
[/quote]

That counts as a tick in Sawgrass' column.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418844779' post='10608031']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418844482' post='10607999']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring.
[/quote]

[b][i]Measure[/i][/b]

[size=3]to ascertain the size, amount, or degree of (something) by using an instrument or device marked in standard units.[/size]
[/quote]

That counts as a tick in Sawgrass' column.
[/quote]

Yes, in that it seems to fail to mention a drop!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418843308' post='10607881']
Sawgrass,

Let's say Dirk Nowitzki is playing with me (7-foot tall basketball player, for those who may not know ).

if I take my first, um, measurement with Dirk's (longer than mine) driver, have I breached any rules? Now that I have any idea of what I want to do, is it OK to get my driver out of my bag and do a real measurement before dropping?
[/quote]


IMO, 20/2 says you must. And yes, this is another tick [u]against[/u] my point of view.

[b] 20/2[/b]

[b] Borrowing Club for Measuring Purposes[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]
The Rules require that a ball to be dropped must be dropped by the player himself. For the purpose of measuring, the player who is required to drop a ball may use any club he has selected for the round (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#4-4"]4-4[/url]). He may also borrow a club for measuring from anyone, including his partner. If he borrows a club and drops a ball and plays it, he incurs no penalty provided that the same outcome could have been achieved with one of the player's own clubs selected for the round. If he could not have achieved the same outcome by measuring with one of his own clubs, he incurs the penalty under the applicable Rule for playing from a wrong place (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-7"]20-7[/url])[/size][/color]

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418847899' post='10608293']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418843308' post='10607881']
Sawgrass,

Let's say Dirk Nowitzki is playing with me (7-foot tall basketball player, for those who may not know ).

if I take my first, um, measurement with Dirk's (longer than mine) driver, have I breached any rules? Now that I have any idea of what I want to do, is it OK to get my driver out of my bag and do a real measurement before dropping?
[/quote]

IMO, 20/2 says you must.

[/quote]

It does?

( edit )
My point being that I *may* (rather than *must*) take a different club to measure now. My own.

[Colin L]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418830193' post='10606707']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418829616' post='10606635']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418826484' post='10606361'][color=#0000cd] the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.[/color]

Curmudgeonly yours,

Sawgrass
[/quote]

And my point was that by trying out two different clubs in order to check your better option you have not yet [i]measured[/i] in terms of Decision 20/1.
[/quote]

Colin, your post #159 above, with the expanded statement, seemed to me to agree with me. I presume you weren't intending to agree, but yet it said that the club you use to measure prior to dropping is the measurement club you selected, right? The small point I'm defending here is that IMO you don't have to drop first to have established a measuring club for the subject situation.

But your statement here in this post would sound disengenuous to me if presented to me by a player. You used two clubs to "check" but that checking wasn't measuring? Really?
[/quote]

I'll try to make my view clearer. There is nothing said anywhere to prevent a player checking out his options with more than one club prior to dropping the ball. Call that measuring if you like, but only one of them will end up being [i]the[/i] measurement referred to in the Decision. It is the one made with the club finally chosen and that choice is only made final when the ball is dropped. As soon as the ball is dropped, any further measurement must be done with the same club. The measurement doesn't come into force till the ball is dropped: he could legitimately change his mind and re-measure with a different club. The evidence to support the contention that the player may test his options with different clubs is the lack of anything said in the Rules to the contrary: if it doesn't say you can't, then you can.

In the event that we are all sufficiently persuasive, please feel free to make use of that surrender cartoon I had need of recently.

[Colin L]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418848200' post='10608327']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418847899' post='10608293']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418843308' post='10607881']
Sawgrass,

Let's say Dirk Nowitzki is playing with me (7-foot tall basketball player, for those who may not know ).

if I take my first, um, measurement with Dirk's (longer than mine) driver, have I breached any rules? Now that I have any idea of what I want to do, is it OK to get my driver out of my bag and do a real measurement before dropping?
[/quote]

IMO, 20/2 says you must.

[/quote]

It does?
[/quote]

Well, D20/2 doesn't really say you must use your own driver and re-measure . Remember that there is no requirement to measure in the first place. You may borrow another player's club to use in measuring. But if the borrowed club is longer than your longest club, you could end up dropping the ball too far from where it should strike the course or roll further than two of your own club's lengths. If either of these happened, you would be playing from a wrong place.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418848754' post='10608387']
Remember that there is no requirement to measure in the first place.
[/quote]

Yes, that is the angle I've been using in my discussion with Sawgrass.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418848754' post='10608387']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418848200' post='10608327']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418847899' post='10608293']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418843308' post='10607881']
Sawgrass,

Let's say Dirk Nowitzki is playing with me (7-foot tall basketball player, for those who may not know ).

if I take my first, um, measurement with Dirk's (longer than mine) driver, have I breached any rules? Now that I have any idea of what I want to do, is it OK to get my driver out of my bag and do a real measurement before dropping?
[/quote]

IMO, 20/2 says you must.

[/quote]

It does?
[/quote]

Well, D20/2 doesn't really say you must use your own driver and re-measure . Remember that there is no requirement to measure in the first place. You may borrow another player's club to use in measuring. But if the borrowed club is longer than your longest club, you could end up dropping the ball too far from where it should strike the course or roll further than two of your own club's lengths. If either of these happened, you would be playing from a wrong place.
[/quote]

I agree I was hasty in incorrectly using the word "must." I should have said that you must drop with the margin that your own club would allow, and you might need to prove it with your own longest club. (So there's a white flag surrender quickly offered.)

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418849484' post='10608451']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418848754' post='10608387']
Remember that there is no requirement to measure in the first place.
[/quote]

Yes, that is the angle I've been using in my discussion with Sawgrass.
[/quote]

Which was immediately respected by Sawgrass! (But deemed by that cad to be inconclusive!)

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418848214' post='10608329']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418830193' post='10606707']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418829616' post='10606635']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418826484' post='10606361'][color=#0000cd] the only evidence we have says once you measure with a club in a situation you must continue to use that club for measuring in that same situation.[/color]

Curmudgeonly yours,

Sawgrass
[/quote]

And my point was that by trying out two different clubs in order to check your better option you have not yet [i]measured[/i] in terms of Decision 20/1.
[/quote]

Colin, your post #159 above, with the expanded statement, seemed to me to agree with me. I presume you weren't intending to agree, but yet it said that the club you use to measure prior to dropping is the measurement club you selected, right? The small point I'm defending here is that IMO you don't have to drop first to have established a measuring club for the subject situation.

But your statement here in this post would sound disengenuous to me if presented to me by a player. You used two clubs to "check" but that checking wasn't measuring? Really?
[/quote]

I'll try to make my view clearer. There is nothing said anywhere to prevent a player checking out his options with more than one club prior to dropping the ball. Call that measuring if you like, but only one of them will end up being [i]the[/i] measurement referred to in the Decision. It is the one made with the club finally chosen and that choice is only made final when the ball is dropped. As soon as the ball is dropped, any further measurement must be done with the same club. The measurement doesn't come into force till the ball is dropped: he could legitimately change his mind and re-measure with a different club. The evidence to support the contention that the player may test his options with different clubs is the lack of anything said in the Rules to the contrary: if it doesn't say you can't, then you can.

In the event that we are all sufficiently persuasive, please feel free to make use of that surrender cartoon I had need of recently.
[/quote]

Your rationale is well-stated and makes fine sense to me. In fact, I hope it's true!

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418842490' post='10607799']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418837811' post='10607383']
Sawgrass, I volunteer you to submit a scenario to the USGA.
[/quote]

I bet they would tell him to read D20/1...
[/quote]

If that is the ONLY thing they say, without saying the player may measure with multiple clubs before the drop, I may be forced to switch to his viewpoint!

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
Mr. Bean, as I said early on, you may be right and I may be wrong. But you've provided nothing but your predetermined point of view as evidence of the idea that measuring an area in which to drop does not count as measuring until after you drop.

I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring. But I won't, because I don't know for sure. How is it that you are so certain? Have you been informed of this by a RB? If so, I would happily accept that as fact and move on. (And again, it hasn't escaped me that if we were all to vote on who was right I'd lose in a landslide.)
[/quote]

Sawgrass,

there are certain (in fact, many) things in the Rules of Golf that one just has to comprehend as being part of the game and that is why all possible things have not been clarified on Decision level, nor are all written Decisions so explicitly worded that no misunderstanding could ever take place by someone reading them. In my eyes D20/1 is as clear as a day but that is because I can see what it is meant to tell us while you are trying to read it word by word. That, my friend, is most often a poor way of reading the Rules.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418859209' post='10609233']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
Mr. Bean, as I said early on, you may be right and I may be wrong. But you've provided nothing but your predetermined point of view as evidence of the idea that measuring an area in which to drop does not count as measuring until after you drop.

I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring. But I won't, because I don't know for sure. How is it that you are so certain? Have you been informed of this by a RB? If so, I would happily accept that as fact and move on. (And again, it hasn't escaped me that if we were all to vote on who was right I'd lose in a landslide.)
[/quote]

Sawgrass,

there are certain (in fact, many) things in the Rules of Golf that one just has to comprehend as being part of the game and that is why all possible things have not been clarified on Decision level, nor are all written Decisions so explicitly worded that no misunderstanding could ever take place by someone reading them. In my eyes D20/1 is as clear as a day but that is because I can see what it is meant to tell us while you are trying to read it word by word. That, my friend, is most often a poor way of reading the Rules.
[/quote]

[color=#282828][size=4]Mr. Bean, with all due respect, I believe that Sawgrass has proven his ability to read decisions and apply them to other situations. I agree with your application of the decision. But the answer to the decision is poorly written, and appears to be a blanket statement, in my opinion.[/size][/color]

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418864017' post='10609557']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418859209' post='10609233']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
Mr. Bean, as I said early on, you may be right and I may be wrong. But you've provided nothing but your predetermined point of view as evidence of the idea that measuring an area in which to drop does not count as measuring until after you drop.

I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring. But I won't, because I don't know for sure. How is it that you are so certain? Have you been informed of this by a RB? If so, I would happily accept that as fact and move on. (And again, it hasn't escaped me that if we were all to vote on who was right I'd lose in a landslide.)
[/quote]

Sawgrass,

there are certain (in fact, many) things in the Rules of Golf that one just has to comprehend as being part of the game and that is why all possible things have not been clarified on Decision level, nor are all written Decisions so explicitly worded that no misunderstanding could ever take place by someone reading them. In my eyes D20/1 is as clear as a day but that is because I can see what it is meant to tell us while you are trying to read it word by word. That, my friend, is most often a poor way of reading the Rules.
[/quote]

[color=#282828][size=4]Mr. Bean, with all due respect, I believe that Sawgrass has proven his ability to read decisions and apply them to other situations. I agree with your application of the decision. But [b]the answer to the decision is poorly written[/b], and appears to be a blanket statement, in my opinion.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

So are many others and that is why one needs to think behind it. What is the purpose of the Decision, and more important, what is the purpose of restraining use of clubs for measuring?

The way I see it the player is not to be allowed to fiddle around with the club(s) he uses for measuring because that would lead to a chaos. That is why he is bound to his choice (of one club). However, he is not and cannot be prohibited to try and evaluate which club suits him best in each case. It would be very peculiar not to allow a player to estimate the most practical area for his drop and roll as this may have a great impact on his score. And the best way to estimate is to try one or more clubs.

[sui generis]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418870449' post='10610057']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418864017' post='10609557']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418859209' post='10609233']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418843138' post='10607867']
Mr. Bean, as I said early on, you may be right and I may be wrong. But you've provided nothing but your predetermined point of view as evidence of the idea that measuring an area in which to drop does not count as measuring until after you drop.

I might just as easily encourage you to take my word for what constitutes measuring. But I won't, because I don't know for sure. How is it that you are so certain? Have you been informed of this by a RB? If so, I would happily accept that as fact and move on. (And again, it hasn't escaped me that if we were all to vote on who was right I'd lose in a landslide.)
[/quote]

Sawgrass,

there are certain (in fact, many) things in the Rules of Golf that one just has to comprehend as being part of the game and that is why all possible things have not been clarified on Decision level, nor are all written Decisions so explicitly worded that no misunderstanding could ever take place by someone reading them. In my eyes D20/1 is as clear as a day but that is because I can see what it is meant to tell us while you are trying to read it word by word. That, my friend, is most often a poor way of reading the Rules.
[/quote]

[color=#282828]Mr. Bean, with all due respect, I believe that Sawgrass has proven his ability to read decisions and apply them to other situations. I agree with your application of the decision. But [b]the answer to the decision is poorly written[/b], and appears to be a blanket statement, in my opinion.[/color]
[/quote]

So are many others and that is why one needs to think behind it. What is the purpose of the Decision, and more important, what is the purpose of restraining use of clubs for measuring?

The way I see it the player is not to be allowed to fiddle around with the club(s) he uses for measuring because that would lead to a chaos. That is why he is bound to his choice (of one club). However, he is not and cannot be prohibited to try and evaluate which club suits him best in each case. It would be very peculiar not to allow a player to estimate the most practical area for his drop and roll as this may have a great impact on his score. And the best way to estimate is to try one or more clubs.
[/quote]

Huzzah, Mr Bean.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1418870449' post='10610057']

The way I see it the player is not to be allowed to fiddle around with the club(s) he uses for measuring because that would lead to a chaos . . . It would be very peculiar not to allow a player to estimate the most practical area for his drop and roll as this may have a great impact on his score. And the best way to estimate is to try one or more clubs.
[/quote]

!

[Newby]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418864017' post='10609557']
[color=#282828]But the answer to the decision is poorly written, and appears to be a blanket statement, in my opinion.[/color]
[/quote]

The answer is aimed at a very specific question. If it was intended to cover both situations (ie pre drop and post drop), there would be no need to include the reference to his dropping correctly. Why do they mention it? I haven't yet seen an explanation.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418888672' post='10610857']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418864017' post='10609557']
[color=#282828]But the answer to the decision is poorly written, and appears to be a blanket statement, in my opinion.[/color]
[/quote]

The answer is aimed at a very specific question. If it was intended to cover both situations (ie pre drop and post drop), there would be no need to include the reference to his dropping correctly. Why do they mention it? I haven't yet seen an explanation.
[/quote]

I understand your logic here (and when you mentioned it previously). It could have been more apparent in the wording....measurement made after the drop must be made with same club as measurement before the drop, or something to that effect.

[Cancun]

Hello Sawgrass:

You seem to be alone in this one and my opinion won’t change that… unless I can present you with a comment that moves you to change your mind ;-)

D 20/1 has been quoted several times. I intend to convince you that D 20/1 applies in a different context than the one discussed:

The decision is about a player who, in the process of taking relief under a Rule, measured one or two club lengths whit his driver. He correctly dropped a ball and he has to evaluate if the ball rolled more than two club-lengths in order to see if the ball is in play or if he has to re drop.

The player used his driver to determine the area where he ended up making a correct drop. Nothing in the Decision states that he didn’t use different clubs while studying his possibilities. It’s fair to say that nothing states that he did, either. That’s because it’s irrelevant (nothing in the Rules indicates that it's relevant). The measurement becomes relevant once that the dropping area is [u]determined[/u]. That’s for the player to say when he finished that determination. There’s nothing in the Rules saying that he can’t evaluate his options with his driver and his putter before determining that area, so we have no authority to say that he can’t.

Then we have the question: May the player use a different club to measure the two club lengths? And the answer is no.

That only means that, if you used a club to determine the area where you will drop a ball, you must use that same club for all measuring in that situation and we all agree with that.

To summarize my point of view: you’re taking a very specific answer and making a generalization. I believe that, by doing that, your taking the answer out of context.

I hope that helps my friend. Have a good day!

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418894319' post='10610921']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418888672' post='10610857']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1418864017' post='10609557']
[color=#282828]But the answer to the decision is poorly written, and appears to be a blanket statement, in my opinion.[/color]
[/quote]

The answer is aimed at a very specific question. If it was intended to cover both situations (ie pre drop and post drop), there would be no need to include the reference to his dropping correctly. Why do they mention it? I haven't yet seen an explanation.
[/quote]

I understand your logic here (and when you mentioned it previously). It could have been more apparent in the wording....measurement made after the drop must be made with same club as measurement before the drop, or something to that effect.
[/quote]

I believe this is a classic example of a case where a reader is trying to find something from a Decision that does not exist there.

I discussed this with two of my colleagues and they were mildly stunned to hear of the original case. They could not understand how the referee could have made such a blunder.

On the other hand, I remember being present when another colleague tried to make a player measure the dropping area with the same club he had used to define NPR. It took a while to convince him that he was about to make an error and he only accepted the correct answer after he was shown the very Decision saying that one is allowed to measure that (dropping) area with any club. His argument was D20/1 as it says 'all measuring'. He failed to understand that determining is not measuring in golf terms.

[rogolf]

Rule 47: During the stipulated round, a player's mind is never as clear as it was before the round or will be after the round.
Note: This Rule also applies to referees.

[Sawgrass]

A couple of weeks ago I sent the following question to the USGA:

____


[color=#282828][size=2]Decision 20/1 tells us that after a player uses a club to measure the area in which he may drop, and then drops, he is committed to using that same club for additional measurements in that same situation. The Decision's answer literally says, "[/size][/color][color=black][size=1]The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation."[/size][/color]

[color=#282828][size=2]My question to you is, if a player uses more than one club in several attempts to determine his dropping area and potential "roll away" area, but has not yet dropped, is he committed to continuing to use the first club with which he measured? The last club? Is this commitment only established after the drop is made, or when the first measurement is made before dropping as seems to be implied by the words "originally used" in the Decision?

Since the Decision says, "originally used," I'm basically asking when the "original use" actually occurs. [/size][/color]

[color=#282828][size=2]_____[/size][/color]


As many of you know, we are precluded from posting the USGA's wording for its response, but I can paraphrase and say that as so many here have stated and implied, the USGA has confirmed that it's the first drop that commits you to a club for future measuring -- the club you used for measuring that drop. (I still won't choose to call that the club used "originally" to measure, as IMO it's instead the last club used for measuring prior to the initial drop, not the "original" club used. )

So, while I now have what I consider to be a definitive explanation, I also seem to have won some sympathy (with more than one person in independent exchanges) at the USGA that there may be a better way to word the answer to D20/1, and that observation is being considered by the responsible parities.

Anyway, I feel more comfortable now, but . . . for seemingly everyone else posting in this thread . . . there's nothing to see here folks -- move along!

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1421096604' post='10734071']
Anyway, [b]I feel more comfortable now[/b], but . . . for seemingly everyone else posting in this thread . . . there's nothing to see here folks -- move along!
[/quote]

You know, Sawgrass, I doubt that very much, as you will soon enough find another issue to lose your hair upon, should you still have any on your head...

All kidding aside, thank You for going through the trouble to reassure yourself. Naturally, the rest of us already knew the answer...

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1421185900' post='10741247']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1421096604' post='10734071']
Anyway, [b]I feel more comfortable now[/b], but . . . for seemingly everyone else posting in this thread . . . there's nothing to see here folks -- move along!
[/quote]

You know, Sawgrass, I doubt that very much, as you will soon enough find another issue to lose your hair upon, should you still have any on your head...

All kidding aside, thank You for going through the trouble to reassure yourself. Naturally, the rest of us already knew the answer...
[/quote]

Shall I ever achieve perfection, I will no longer seek assurance. For the time being I'll have to be satisfied that I'm absolutely correct when I know I'm not sure.

By the way, I still have lots and lots of hair. Way too long for most people's tastes to be sure, but damn I look good!

As an aside, I recently attended the USGA/PGA three and one half day Rules Workshop at USGA headquarters. My favorite quote from one of the instructors? "We used to say that the Rules mean exactly what they say. We don't say that anymore."

[LeoLeo99]

Does JB Holmes' drop in the sudden death playoff today settle this issue? JB's ball was up against the television tower so he was granted a free drop. He used a wedge to determine his NPR. He marked his NPR with a tee. Then he got out his driver to measure one club length from NPR to determine the drop zone. Or am I missing what this discussion is about? If I'm missing the point, there is no need to summarize it for edification.

[Newby]

That is the correct procedure.

[Cancun]

What you saw was the process for relief from an immovable obstruction. Actually, that was a TIO (temporary immovable obstruction). You can find the definition of a TIO and also the suggested text for the local Rule in Appendix I of the Rules of Golf.

Basically, JB Holmes determined the nearest spot to where the ball rested which was:[list]
[*]Not nearer the hole
[*]Through the green (as his ball was through the green)
[*]Offered complete relief from the TIO.
[/list]
For finding that spot, he used a wedge as that was the club he would have used for the stroke if the TIO hadn’t been there.

Then he had to determine the area where he could drop without penalty, which was within one club-length and not nearer the hole from that spot. For that second step of the process, he was allowed to use any club in his bag, and he chose the driver.

The discussion here had to do with a different situation. Imagine that, after the drop, the ball rolls and you have to see if it rolled more than 2 club-lengths (which would mean you have to re-drop if it was the first, or place if it was the second)… for that measurement he would have to use the driver again, since that’s the one he originally used.

I hope this answers your question