Mizuno isn't JDM?

[BTO]

Having trouble _giving_ away this iron head? Is this what this is all about. Did you feel you had the pearl of great price here in an mx-23 and I had no right to refuse. You seem to glean a lot from some short statement that I replied to is my point. In retrospect I wish I had not responded at all. Now _that_ would have been snubbing you. It's all comical to you maybe but to me it is all sad. Get over it. Hey I'll forever look on Mizuno as JDM. There's your hug. You feel better now. :-)

[blahrkb]

Don't feel bad, Miura's aren't really JDM (Miura Giken are). If someone told you these clubs were forged with magic, would it make you play better? Remember what Yogurt said, "The schwartz is in you!"

[JL529]

lol...jdm nutjob and jdm sobbery

[golfnutjp]

I am Japanese , and we sell golf clubs (San Diego) for 36years and I am engineer . but This is my first time writing to forum.
And I personally visited Miura, Endo, Mizuno factory. There are many Japanese small company supply "club head".to Major Brand.

Many Japanese Domestic Mfg started past about 20years ago, small golf shop owner started custom fit shop with out heavy inventory using launch Monitor.
They display Club head, After market shaft, and Grips. Most of club head vendor's were working for big company such as Dunlop, Bridgestone, Srixon. Tour edge, Taylormade, Titleist.
Small club head vendor started to sell products with custom order from Custom fit store with domestic brand name.
And JDM is super quality golf clubs by custom fit with Japanese culture.

This was start od JDM.

In Japan, traditional forging technique started around 11th century to make "Samurai swords". Almost 1,000 years traditional technique and procedure were kept at major temple and shrine.
And small Japanese forging company is based on small family base business in Japan. Some forging company is 20th generation. These small company are supporting world industry such as Precious tool, Punching die, Aerospace, cellphone battery, etc

These forging technique are still continued to make Cooking nife for Japanese Sushi cheff, and Scisors. and Golf club Heads. These small forging company locate at near by NIPPON Steel,, KOBE Steel company, these company are world famous precious metal and They are owner of US steel MFG and supporting USA iron industry. The most JDM factory are near by these steel company. Nike, Titleist, Ben Hogan, these some USA company get Iron heads from Japanese JDM vendor with their brand name .
Endo, Miura, Mizuno are very famous Club head vendor manufacture for these company. The most of company order club head to these foundry and china and Taiwan today.

All Japanese made club head are very expensive due to quality level, JDM head are almost $120~$500, Chinese, Taiwan head is $12~$35. ( Head only)
These price is telling about quality level( QA check points, Material cost, Superior experience and authentification )

Shaft are same thing. after market shaft is different from MFG assembled shaft's quality withsame reason. $400 VS $25

Famous craftman's quality are sometime beautiful arts, It may stay at museum quality level in its history.

The most of consumer sometime misunderstand because, Name of brand from China and Taiwan using Japanese name,

MX-23 Iron head are Forging but it was 3piease assembly with welding plus Grind process. And production workers are not certified handcraft man.

Japanese industry have Certified Craft man authorized level by each company.

Incase of Mizuno Golf, YORO JAPAN series is JDM club with Craftman.

[xxio]

Your Japanese history is much appreciated. So are you saying only those products of the small makers are JDM?

Personally I would not because the term JDM is also used in the car tuning as well as other industries. I don't think those car parts were forged by these same people.

There was an informative post by Shambles on how the culture of JDM came to be based on an economic standpoint.

Can provide us your opinion about Mizuno products that are available in both Japan and International markets? Would you consider those MP 33s, MP 32s, MP 60s, MP 58s.... and so on as JDM products? Even the MX23 regardless of it's construction.

[Nessism]

[quote name='golfnutjp' timestamp='1418204674' post='10571373']
MX-23 Iron head are Forging but it was 3piease assembly with welding plus Grind process. And production workers are not certified handcraft man.
[/quote]

I believe this is incorrect. MX-23 is a one piece forging. Forged in Japan.

Honestly, I'm okay with you guys that say mass produced Mizuno's aren't JDM. What is and what isn't JDM is obviously defined by the people using the term (including me), and my eye's are open now. It's not an exact science. I do find it ironic that [size=4]JDM aficionados seem perfectly okay with Endo forged in Thailand, but the mere suggestion of a Chinese head being worthy of being called JDM will draw snears. Where are all these JDM driver heads being made? China would be my guess but I'm not sure.[/size]

[size=4]Oh, and regarding forging, [/size]despite[size=4] the romance many [/size]associate[size=4] with the process it's actually quite [/size]rudimentary[size=4]. 1000 year old [/size]samurai sword[size=4] tradition [/size]notwithstanding[size=4]. [/size]

[T.Beau]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1418220119' post='10571723']
[quote name='golfnutjp' timestamp='1418204674' post='10571373']
MX-23 Iron head are Forging but it was 3piease assembly with welding plus Grind process. And production workers are not certified handcraft man.
[/quote]

I believe this is incorrect. MX-23 is a one piece forging. Forged in Japan.

Honestly, I'm okay with you guys that say mass produced Mizuno's aren't JDM. What is and what isn't JDM is obviously defined by the people using the term (including me), and my eye's are open now. It's not an exact science. I do find it ironic that JDM aficionados seem perfectly okay with Endo forged in Thailand, but the mere suggestion of a Chinese head being worthy of being called JDM will draw snears. Where are all these JDM driver heads being made? China would be my guess but I'm not sure.

Oh, and regarding forging, despite the romance many associate with the process it's actually quite rudimentary. 1000 year old samurai sword tradition notwithstanding.
[/quote]

I agree..not sure how long things have been manufactured using forging, but it has been a long time. Forging is a simple process, but i am sure there is an art to it as well and i acknowledge there are master craftsmen involved with the best forgings..there are also degrees of quality control. i respect that. It is also possible to over manufacture a product.

Thing is, you can also create a fine iron head using the casting process and using soft carbon steel. This has been proven. It's more about the steel than the process as far as feel goes. When some one raves about how their JDM forging feel so sublime, they are more describing the feel of the carbon steel rather than the manufacturing process. There really arent any performance advantages to using JDM clubs over a manufacturer like PING whose lineup consists almost soley of cast stainless steel irons. They certainly pay attention to the details as well

Perhaps people may have a chance of actually noticing the difference and betterness of JDM clubheads over others during actual play if there were not other components to a golf club. As it is, there is also a grip and a shaft, both of which affect the ball feel ,with the shaft often affecting the performance and ball feel as much and sometimes even more than the head. Shaft manufacturing is also a very simple process.. Throw in some cushin inserts in the shafts and that adds another element to the fray.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1418220119' post='10571723']
[quote name='golfnutjp' timestamp='1418204674' post='10571373']
MX-23 Iron head are Forging but it was 3piease assembly with welding plus Grind process. And production workers are not certified handcraft man.
[/quote]

I believe this is incorrect. MX-23 is a one piece forging. Forged in Japan.

Honestly, I'm okay with you guys that say mass produced Mizuno's aren't JDM. What is and what isn't JDM is obviously defined by the people using the term (including me), and my eye's are open now. It's not an exact science. I do find it ironic that JDM aficionados seem perfectly okay with Endo forged in Thailand, but the mere suggestion of a Chinese head being worthy of being called JDM will draw snears. Where are all these JDM driver heads being made? China would be my guess but I'm not sure.

Oh, and regarding forging, despite the romance many associate with the process it's actually quite rudimentary. 1000 year old samurai sword tradition notwithstanding.
[/quote]

If you really want an interesting perspective, look at Tom Wishon's posts regarding the forging process and the "quality" therein...In this case, the industry is much more similar than it is different, in spite of the asserted "craftsmanship" and better quality materials, etc...

[2putttom]

[attachment=2529833:eating gazelle.gif] this is gettin good...

[golfnutjp]

[list]
[*]Japanese forging head history is not older than USA forging head. Power Built, Wilson sports Macgreagor they started around 1890. I have products catalog.
[*]USA forging house stop their production around 1982. I was selling forging head to Japan then.
[*]Mizuno Golf started 1933 for golf products but it was not Iron heads.
[*]The most golf Iron clubs were imported from USA before 1980 .
[*]Miura Golf established 1977. They have 30employee today( from his website) I have met Miura family at PGA show Florida.
[/list]
I would like to say JDM products are As T.Beau. said there are master craftsmen involved with the best forgings in small company.
Working in golf industry, Golf club head division is very small company, (10~100worker) and some time their golf business is side business.
Even Mizuno golf made a team for JDM products with 8~10 certified craft man.

The reason of company locations are KOBE steel, NIppon steel such big Iron Factory with monster furnace, and finest material availability.
In Japanese Industrial high school, Casting and Forging class and mandatory subject class for student. They become craft man and engineer I Japan.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='apprenti23' timestamp='1417995389' post='10559159']
Who cares though? If you can't consistently find the center of the face, does it really matter where your clubs are made?
[/quote]LMAO, this is the first time that I have ever been in this JDM thread, believe it or not, and the only reason that I dropped in was the title. You know, the Mizzy thing, lol. I can't believe this. Seriously, call me naïve, sheltered or just a dumba**, however I can't believe that Guys get into tiffs over this subject, LMAO

Are you f***** kidding me?!?!?

Seriously?!?!?

Having played JDM, Euro(My first set of Mizzys and my first set of 87s) & obviously domestic, there was not one bit of difference in any of em-

None!!

Zip!!

And I've never met a Player that gave a s*** where their clubs were from!!

Never!!

Ever!!

Not a single one!!

The only thing that matters is what Apprenti mentioned, which 98% of Ams cannot do anyways, so seriously, who cares where the club's forged, assembled or distributed, LMAO

WoW, LMAO

I thought that I was f***** up, LMAO

At least I got to Pus, lol, and it could have been with a set of Sam Snead Rose Ridges, LMAO

Wouldn't have mattered.

Well, I'm glad that I dropped in cuz now I realize how fortunate that I was to have played a JDM iron, LMAO

Although, ignorance is bliss

Take care Bro & I wish You & Yours a Happy, Healthy & prosperous Holiday Season

All The Best,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

And FWIW, the 23 was a one-piece grain flow forged head design from 1035 mild carbon steel, and then the pocket was milled to create the low COG and a wider hitting area, as Nessism stated.

Have a nice day

Golingly Yours,
Richard

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='golfnutjp' timestamp='1418204674' post='10571373']
I am Japanese , and we sell golf clubs (San Diego) for 36years and I am engineer . but This is my first time writing to forum.
And I personally visited Miura, Endo, Mizuno factory. There are many Japanese small company supply "club head".to Major Brand.

Many Japanese Domestic Mfg started past about 20years ago, small golf shop owner started custom fit shop with out heavy inventory using launch Monitor.
They display Club head, After market shaft, and Grips. Most of club head vendor's were working for big company such as Dunlop, Bridgestone, Srixon. Tour edge, Taylormade, Titleist.
Small club head vendor started to sell products with custom order from Custom fit store with domestic brand name.
And JDM is super quality golf clubs by custom fit with Japanese culture.

This was start od JDM.

In Japan, traditional forging technique started around 11th century to make "Samurai swords". Almost 1,000 years traditional technique and procedure were kept at major temple and shrine.
And small Japanese forging company is based on small family base business in Japan. Some forging company is 20th generation. These small company are supporting world industry such as Precious tool, Punching die, Aerospace, cellphone battery, etc

These forging technique are still continued to make Cooking nife for Japanese Sushi cheff, and Scisors. and Golf club Heads. These small forging company locate at near by NIPPON Steel,, KOBE Steel company, these company are world famous precious metal and They are owner of US steel MFG and supporting USA iron industry. The most JDM factory are near by these steel company. Nike, Titleist, Ben Hogan, these some USA company get Iron heads from Japanese JDM vendor with their brand name .
Endo, Miura, Mizuno are very famous Club head vendor manufacture for these company. The most of company order club head to these foundry and china and Taiwan today.

All Japanese made club head are very expensive due to quality level, JDM head are almost $120~$500, Chinese, Taiwan head is $12~$35. ( Head only)
These price is telling about quality level( QA check points, Material cost, Superior experience and authentification )

Shaft are same thing. after market shaft is different from MFG assembled shaft's quality withsame reason. $400 VS $25

Famous craftman's quality are sometime beautiful arts, It may stay at museum quality level in its history.

The most of consumer sometime misunderstand because, Name of brand from China and Taiwan using Japanese name,

MX-23 Iron head are Forging but it was 3piease assembly with welding plus Grind process. And production workers are not certified handcraft man.

Japanese industry have Certified Craft man authorized level by each company.

Incase of Mizuno Golf, YORO JAPAN series is JDM club with Craftman.
[/quote]


golfnutjp

Hang on to your hat, it gets [u]very[/u] interesting Here, on GolfWRX

[Nessism]

[quote name='golfnutjp' timestamp='1418230694' post='10572601']

The reason of company locations are KOBE steel, NIppon steel such big Iron Factory with monster furnace, and finest material availability.
In Japanese Industrial high school, Casting and Forging class and mandatory subject class for student. They become craft man and engineer I Japan.
[/quote]

The steel used in forging club heads is nothing special. It's a very basic low cost steel product. There is so much romance people talk about regarding the steel when in reality, it's not special in the least.

The real skill with manufacturing club heads is in the design and building of the manufacturing equipment. More specifically, designing and making the forging dies.

Actually, some companies use relatively rudimentary dies where the heads need a lot of post forging grinding work to refine the shape. This is where craftsmanship comes into play. A skilled worker can hand grind the heads and achieve an acceptable finished product. So skill is required because the dies ain't so great.

With a proper set of forging dies the head shape is refined to the point that skill is not needed to finish them. This is the proper way to achieve quality. The manufacturing method that relies on skilled craftsman to do the work is NOT a robust way to maintain high quality.

Just some of the irony's that go into building clubs.

[Forged4ever]

First, GolfnutJP, welcome to the forum.

It's great to have You

Second, Thank You very much for the informative posts!!

I hope that you enjoy the board

Stay well my Friend,
Richard

[swizbeatz]

OP has made up he was snubbed, sneered at, has successfully gotten Richard to write a novel about how JDM isn't higher quality, and riled up the non-JDM crown over a simple "thanks but no thanks" on a trade offer. Seriously, the PM is posted on the last page. I feel like nobody reads the thread itself.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1418233929' post='10572955']
OP has made up he was snubbed, sneered at, has successfully gotten Richard to write a novel about how JDM isn't higher quality, and riled up the non-JDM crown over a simple "thanks but no thanks" on a trade offer. Seriously, the PM is posted on the last page. I feel like nobody reads the thread itself.
[/quote]A couple of things-

1) You obviously haven't read many of my posts/responses, LMAO, as that response was a mere novelette, not quite novella, and definitely not novel length, at least by my standards, LMAO(The single line paragraphs can be deceiving however with my vision(lack of, lol) and working off of my tele, they are much easier for me to read)

2) I definitely didn't read the whole thread because most threads are like instructions, I only read em if I'm lost or want to get a feel for the direction & pulse of the thread. I read enough in the first 7-8 posts to create my novelette

I was by no means taking a shot at Nessism as his OP was not inflammatory whatsoever. From the follow-up posts I just never realized that this was even a topic of discussion, much less an inflammatory topic though like most benign subjects/topics, given, oh, about 5-10 minutes or 3-4 posts on this board, they become virtual world food fights

Oh, and BTW, I hit the 23s and was amazed at their feel. I don't know anything about butter, however having only played blades, I was very pleasantly surprised at their sound/feel at impact. At the time I was playing 33s, and there obviously was a different feel, though the 23s had a nice firm, crisp feel. Nice Pocket cavity CB.

Take care Swiz, have a nice week

Fairways & Greens my Friend,
Richard

[duffer888]

If you can buy it through normal distribution channels in the US, it is not JDM.

Problem I see with JDM is that it may not be USGA conforming and the manufacturer may not care to tell you that. I'm pretty sure not everything on TourSpecGolf for example, is USGA conforming.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='duffer888' timestamp='1418236761' post='10573193']
If you can buy it through [b]normal[/b] distribution channels in the US, it is not JDM.

Problem I see with JDM is that it may not be USGA conforming and the manufacturer may not care to tell you that. I'm pretty sure not everything on TourSpecGolf for example, is USGA conforming.
[/quote]

What's "normal?" The longer this conversation goes on the more ludicrous it becomes.....Why is there such a desire to distinguish JDM from USDM? What difference does it really make? Does "normal" mean Golf Galaxy? Or Fairway golf? If it can be shipped and to my door in 7-10 days, does it really matter?

[T.Beau]

[quote name='golfnutjp' timestamp='1418230694' post='10572601'][list]
[*]Japanese forging head history is not older than USA forging head. Power Built, Wilson sports Macgreagor they started around 1890. I have products catalog.
[*]USA forging house stop their production around 1982. I was selling forging head to Japan then.
[*]Mizuno Golf started 1933 for golf products but it was not Iron heads.
[*]The most golf Iron clubs were imported from USA before 1980 .
[*]Miura Golf established 1977. They have 30employee today( from his website) I have met Miura family at PGA show Florida.
[/list]
I would like to say JDM products are As T.Beau. said there are master craftsmen involved with the best forgings in small company.
Working in golf industry, Golf club head division is very small company, (10~100worker) and some time their golf business is side business.
Even Mizuno golf made a team for JDM products with 8~10 certified craft man.

The reason of company locations are KOBE steel, NIppon steel such big Iron Factory with monster furnace, and finest material availability.
In Japanese Industrial high school, Casting and Forging class and mandatory subject class for student. They become craft man and engineer I Japan.
[/quote]

you are providing the forum with good information. acknowledged and appreciated.

i am wondering if these small premium forging houses use modern high end equipment like CAD and CNC milling, and if they employ design engineers?

or if they are more about making a pleasing looking iron with very tight tolerances? thanks

[xxio]

^ you may stumbled on to something there.

Pre CAD design and what subtle changes to neck, cavity, cavity depth, muscleback placement, etc were all learned thru the experience of actual handworking the heads. Hence the importance on the experience of these Japanese craftsmen.

Now with CAD and engineering all of these can be made without leaving a desk and with less trial and error.

[Arafel]

Having to have such skilled craftsmen at the end of the manufacturing process shows how poor the actually manufacturing process is.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='xxio' timestamp='1418294293' post='10577247']
^ you may stumbled on to something there.

Pre CAD design and what subtle changes to neck, cavity, cavity depth, muscleback placement, etc were all learned thru the experience of actual handworking the heads. Hence the importance on the experience of these Japanese craftsmen.

Now with CAD and engineering all of these can be made without leaving a desk and with less trial and error.
[/quote]


actually i am thinking the opposite.. i suggest things like CAD, CNC Milling, and utilizing actual design engineers, then having the clubs being tested and tweaked by real professionals (which is what most american companies do) make for a much better product (not to mention much less expensive) than having a club designed mostly to just look good.

[xxio]

Maybe I should clarify the theory I put forth.

The reason why Japanese craftsmen were held in high regard BEFORE (pre CA) was that it was only experience that could give a forger the correct feel for a design or a design tweak. How a change in shape would affect CoG or how a slight change in grind would change balance.

NOW that can be done with technology (CAD) without having to go through personal experiences. Better or just as good products can be designed without the need to go through generations of training.

The Japanese mystique just carries on because of the historical proof that they made/make good products even though the quality of everything else has caught up.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='xxio' timestamp='1418308786' post='10577809']
Maybe I should clarify the theory I put forth.

The reason why Japanese craftsmen were held in high regard BEFORE (pre CA) was that it was only experience that could give a forger the correct feel for a design or a design tweak. How a change in shape would affect CoG or how a slight change in grind would change balance.

NOW that can be done with technology (CAD) without having to go through personal experiences. Better or just as good products can be designed without the need to go through generations of training.

The Japanese mystique just carries on because of the historical proof that they made/make good products [b]even though the quality of everything else has caught up.[/b]
[/quote]

Bingo! In the last 7-10 years, I think we've seen significant quality consolidation regarding golf OEMs...by that, I mean to suggest that if you're dealing with one of the "name brand" companies, the level of quality is there....The idea that there are superior and inferior products is no longer valid...

[Shambles]

[quote name='Arafel' timestamp='1418305163' post='10577547']
Having to have such skilled craftsmen at the end of the manufacturing process shows how poor the actually manufacturing process is.
[/quote]

Not necessarily poor manufacturing process, but more basic manufacturing for sure. Never underestimate a truly skilled craftsman. Problem is, how many truly skilled craftsmen can one put together in one manufacture of one product. Frankly, you can actually train a pool of workmen for one product if the product is simple enough and you break up the manufacture to simple steps as witness the creation by Henry Ford of the assembly line in the manufacture of the automobile. I'll warrant very few or none could assemble a car on his own but each and everyone on the assembly line was taught a specific job with the help of a specific machine to assemble a specific part of the car. These were not craftsmen, they were workmen. The genius was in the design of the assembly line for the production of a product that, until then, had been produced only by small teams of craftsmen.

Golf clubs are many many times more simple and consist of much fewer parts than an automobile. It's not even anywhere near as demanding to produce as the genuine samurai sword, the Katana, regardless that it tries to associate itself with the Katana of legend. The only thing they had in common is that they were swung by hand, but such silly truth will not be allowed to stand against a good marketing man and Japan is not going to lack in skilled marketing warriors.

I still like and admire some Japanese clubs and own a few, regardless that I do not like forged clubs and prefer stainless cast as Ping used to make. They really do come up with clubs that I think are worthy of admiring for looks though to me, they all work almost equally well regardless of source of manufacture if the design and assembly is right for me.



Shambles

[Nessism]

I don't think the Japanese mystique is the driving factor behind the love some people (outside of Japan) have for JDM irons. Rather, it's the fact that the Japanese consumer market is in love with forged irons, as is a segment of the people here in the US are as well, and there are a LOT of options in such clubs coming from Japan. Not satisfied with the forged offerings from the big US OEM's? Look no farther than Japan for alternates, which are numerous. These high end consumers don't give a crap if the clubs are made in Japan, ie "Japanese craftsmanship". Endo forged in Thailand are more than good enough.

[Vegaman]

It's all very uncomplicated. A club designed and made (doesn't matter where) specifically for the Japanese market is JDM. If it's OFFICIALLY sold and marketed internationally it's not JDM. For example Miura and Fourteen. Miura Giken however is JDM. The big players have real JDM lines, TM has Gloire, Callaway has the Legacy line, Titleist the VG3 line and so on.
I travel to Japan quite often, and they have all the international models of everything available PLUS all the stuff made for the local japanese market. There are also brands that only exist in the Japanese market and aren't sold anywhere else.
When it comes to Mizuno you have JDM stuff too, the Craft series drivers for example, not marketed and sold in the US or in Europe. MX23 is of course not JDM, since it's sold by Mizuno internationally.

[Vegaman]

Double post

[duffer888]

[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1418239554' post='10573465']
[quote name='duffer888' timestamp='1418236761' post='10573193']
If you can buy it through [b]normal[/b] distribution channels in the US, it is not JDM.

Problem I see with JDM is that it may not be USGA conforming and the manufacturer may not care to tell you that. I'm pretty sure not everything on TourSpecGolf for example, is USGA conforming.
[/quote]

What's "normal?" The longer this conversation goes on the more ludicrous it becomes.....Why is there such a desire to distinguish JDM from USDM? What difference does it really make? Does "normal" mean Golf Galaxy? Or Fairway golf? If it can be shipped and to my door in 7-10 days, does it really matter?
[/quote]

Would 'traditional' have been a better discriptor? I agree that the longer this becomes, the more ludicrous it becomes. But without clarity, terminology gets thrown around without an understanding of a clear definition and the term eventually becomes meaningless because nobody understands it.

Frankly, I think JDM clubs are dumb in general. Whenever I see someone touting that, I just laugh. But I do use older Fourteen wedges when they just started US distribution, that I bought through traditional distribution channels. In a store, with an account. They are nice wedges and I bought them for the shafts, which at the time, I could not find anywhere.