UK Classic Club Thread - John Letters, Ben Sayers, Slazenger, Dunlop, George Nicoll, Swilken, Petron

[Chris122]

"Something for the weekend sir?".

Waiting my turn in the barber's as a child I never understood that question or why when a grunted affirmation was received the barber would delve into an obscure cupboard under the sink and pass over a small packet.

"What's that mum?".

"Never you mind!".

I'll offer this titbit (remember?) for the weekend;

I was playing the other day with one of the nicest members at Filey who only moved to the area a couple of years ago from a club in the wilds of North Yorkshire,he asked if I was familiar with it and I replied that whilst I had not played there I had been in touch with the pro as it was reckoned that there was the highest percentage of left-handed golfers there than anywhere in the region.

I explained that I phoned asking if they had any vintage clubs for sale and the pro trying to sell me a new set of Pings.

Ian said "That's just like Rhino."

"Rhino?"

"Very thick-skinned and charges a lot!".

[Chris122]

Jiggered;

 

Tadmarton Heath report?

[Jiggered]

Sorry Chris, I'm still trying to exorcise parts of the day from my mind!

 

There were four of us in the end, the weather was pretty damned good for how it's been this year and the course in good shape & Christian generously provided each of us with an original, wrapped 1970s Dunlop 65 to play with so it should have been a perfect day, but I played an absolute stinker of a round. The further it went on the worse it got, one of those sort of days.

 

Christian who sometimes posts here played pretty good, striking his MacGregor MTR1s very well for 32 points, Nick from Golf Monthly Forum playing a set of Hogan Apex irons, a Dunlop Persimmon driver and a Wilson 1200 laminate scored a respectable 29 for his first time out with old school clubs and Mark also played some good stuff for 27 using a mix of irons and woods, I scored 7 out and 7 back for 14 points! When I got back home I nipped to my own course to try and convince myself that I could hit a ball, I think that my problem had been that I wasn't setting my wrists properly on the backswing and then getting into all sorts of difficulties trying to force it on the way down.

 

Despite looking like I'd never played before, I did enjoy the day and am considering another one some time in May with suggested courses of Tadmarton again, Cavendish in Buxton or Oundle in Northamptonshire. There's a post about it on the Persimmon and Blades facebook group if you ever go there.

[stixman]

We've all been there, commiserations and condolences!

[Chris122]

Awww,gutted for you but as Stixman says we've all been there and Sod's Law is that the harder you try the harder it becomes.

I have done the same on several separate occasions when the anticipation has created such tension I've been almost unable to play,I still have nightmares about the time I played in an event with my good pal John Seymour,there looked to be about 200 people on the first tee watching (in reality probably only a dozen) and I nutted my opening tee-shot bang,straight down the middle with my Jerry Pate style optic-orange Prostaff,I then shanked my 5-iron into the undergrowth and played a succession of knobs,duffs,tops,hooks and slices for the remaining 17 1/2 holes.

In typical Seymour fashion as we walked off the 18th he said "So how you doing old pal,I don't seem to have seen much of you today?"

Had to laugh.

Sending you a hug with this for a speedy recovery!

[elwhippy]

As an aside when did Scottish Golf go from affordable to utterly insanely expensive? Big 50 this year and lads wanted to do a trip to some of Scotland's finest. Kingsbarns, Cruden Bay, Castle Stewart, Royal Dornoch and either Gullane or Royal Aberdeen. Pardon the language but who the $%& are they aiming at? Millionaires? £268 for 18 holes at Kingsbarns? £170 for Aberdeen.....no wonder Scottish Golf is in decline. We are off to France and Portugal for less money than a week in Scotland would cost us. So sad that the Home of Golf doesn't cater for the bloke with a family and mortgage.

[stixman]

Most of these are 'heavy duty' bucket list courses for overseas tourists with deep pockets and a currency which is buoyant. High end tour operators buy block bookings at a trade price leaving the remainder of start times at the full retail price. It's an iniquity for UK base players, but it is what it is.

Budget bucket list courses I would be happy to play as a substitute are Golspie and Brora instead of Dornoch, Tain which is fun is in the same area and a Dornoch Firth Golf Pass eases the pain.

Gullane 2 is a great course and about half the price of No 1.

Next door to Royal Aberdeen is Murcar, it is not unknown for players to play the front 9 at RA in a sea fret and wind up on the back 9 at Murcar and not know the difference, apart from the taxi ride back.

When did this prostitution start? Well, probably in the early 90s. I played Carnoustie for £100 in 2001, which I rationalised by recalling in 1966 I played 3 rounds in the day for a total on 12.5 pence, half a crown in todays money, so the average wasn't too bad

[DM70]

As an aside when did Scottish Golf go from affordable to utterly insanely expensive? Big 50 this year and lads wanted to do a trip to some of Scotland's finest. Kingsbarns, Cruden Bay, Castle Stewart, Royal Dornoch and either Gullane or Royal Aberdeen. Pardon the language but who the $%& are they aiming at? Millionaires? £268 for 18 holes at Kingsbarns? £170 for Aberdeen.....no wonder Scottish Golf is in decline. We are off to France and Portugal for less money than a week in Scotland would cost us. So sad that the Home of Golf doesn't cater for the bloke with a family and mortgage.

 

In 2016 I compiled a chart with British Isles courses I want to play (links and heath-land mainly), where I also listed the greenfee. Gullane #1 was £110 then, £175 now... There are still plenty of alternatives well below £100 though. I did not even bother listing the most expensive ones like Kingsbarn, Castle Stewart and the English Open courses. Why should I, when there are plenty of other options nearby?

Course list - GF rates from 2016 so most have increased some pounds/euros.

Scotland map with the courses

[Chris122]

How to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Cupidity.

When I lived in York the Knavesmire was to host a horse race normally run at Epsom,hoteliers and b&b's jacked their prices through the roof in anticipation of a killing and ended up half empty when people opted to stay slightly further away for a sensible cost.

A number of golf clubs do not encourage visitors,Ganton which is just up the road is expensive,unlike most clubs it does not rely on income from green fees.

Apart from the cost involved I've heard some tales of shabby treatment by course marshals at St Andrews who seem to take pleasure in hassling visitors to maintain a schedule round the Old Course that would be well accompanied by the theme from 'Rawhide',Walter Hagen's exhortation to "Stop and smell the flowers" has no place and I don't suppose for one moment that you're meant to enjoy it either,just tick it off the bucket list and retire to Rusack's for some amber fluid or a pot of tea.

[oldschoolrocker]

Chris,

Thank you for your mention of “Rawhide.” Not to threadjack, but, like most that frequent this section of our inter web, I am old and whimsical. Having recently made the decision to downsize and simplify my life, I cut the cord on my cable provider, opting for a digital antenna, and streaming video to satisfy the beast when I am in need of mindless entertainment.

One of the channels shows old Westerns and Rawhide is at the top of the list.

Head ‘em up and move ‘um out,

Randy

[Chris122]

Randy?.....Don't you mean Rowdy?

[oldschoolrocker]

Yep, a typo due to my failing eyesight and these here new fangled machines pardner.

RY

[shotmark]

Does Filey have the opening holes along the top of a cliff? I played a course around there years ago that was on the top of a cliff and very exposed, though some of the later holes went a bit inland. May have been Scarborough or Whitby? What I remember most about it is that as a single I got paired up with a family (granddad, son, grandson), and the son was Mr. Ping. Ping Eye2 Woods and irons, Ping putter, one of those white Ping staff bags (on a trolley), and a Ping visor. Heck, he might even have been playing one of those two-tone Ping balls for all I can remember.

Not the best course I've played, but certainly not the worst, either. There was a little valley or gorge that we had to hit over at one point.

 

That sounds very much like Whitby. I believe they have now lost another couple of holes due to coastal erosion so even more holes over the road.

[Chris122]

Whitby is,like many other clubs,struggling to survive,the big story in East Yorkshire at the moment is about the dodgy dealings of East Riding Council and Bridlington Belvedere golf club who rent the land from the council but have not been able to sustain their payments,the council offered to sell them the freehold but the period within which it was to be decided expired but now it appears that an agreement has been made to sell the freehold to the club for £750,000.

It then emerged that the club has pre-sold a parcel of the golf course to a property developer who happens to be part of the firm that does the clubs accounts.

The land was sold for £1.65 million.

£900,000 profit at the tax payers expense.

Planning permission granted for homes and a hotel,a vote taken and approved by a deciding vote made by a woman who is known to be a 'friend' of Mr Parnaby Chief Exec. of East Riding Council.

The whole thing stinks of corruption,insider trading and people filling their pockets at the expense of tax-payers like me.

Google 'Bridlington golf club land sale'.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Does Filey have the opening holes along the top of a cliff? I played a course around there years ago that was on the top of a cliff and very exposed, though some of the later holes went a bit inland. May have been Scarborough or Whitby? What I remember most about it is that as a single I got paired up with a family (granddad, son, grandson), and the son was Mr. Ping. Ping Eye2 Woods and irons, Ping putter, one of those white Ping staff bags (on a trolley), and a Ping visor. Heck, he might even have been playing one of those two-tone Ping balls for all I can remember.

Not the best course I've played, but certainly not the worst, either. There was a little valley or gorge that we had to hit over at one point.

 

That sounds very much like Whitby. I believe they have now lost another couple of holes due to coastal erosion so even more holes over the road.

 

Looking back, I am pretty sure it was Whitby.

God, it feels like a lifetime ago. Golf has changed so much since then.

[elwhippy]

And Oop North the temperature has plummeted again. Two whole days wearing a polo shirt and back to thermals and wind / rain gear. And the greens have been cored and dressed.

[Chris122]

Yup,we've had dense fog,torrential rain in the Scarborough area which has closed the course again,I went up today not realising it was shut and had to settle for a practice session which turned into a two part venture as after 45 minutes my hands were so bloody cold I had to go in for a coffee and to warm up.

Breath pluming,bitterly cold east wind.

The longest,dankest,dreariest winter I've known in my life.

[stixman]

Yup,we've had dense fog,torrential rain in the Scarborough area which has closed the course again,I went up today not realising it was shut and had to settle for a practice session which turned into a two part venture as after 45 minutes my hands were so bloody cold I had to go in for a coffee and to warm up.

Breath pluming,bitterly cold east wind.

The longest,dankest,dreariest winter I've known in my life.

 

Will you please stop sending your weather to us in the West, it's supposed to be the other way around. OK, sometimes our gifts to you can be a bit wet, but at least it's warm.....mostly.

[elwhippy]

Playing this evening...Winter clothing back out.

[Jiggered]

I've resisted temptation recently but these hooked me in, Norrie Thomson 1 & 2 woods, 3 to wedge in the irons plus a matching putter which I always like.

 

I wondered if they might be a ladies set with the white Avon grips (completely shot) and the irons being about half an inch short but strangely the woods are pretty much standard length and the shafts are True Temper Pro-Fit R, so I guess it's just the old shorter lengths.

 

The varnish on the woods has crackled up but the actual faces are in surprisingly good condition considering they don't have an insert.

 

There's not a lot of information on the net about Norrie Thomson, even the "Antique Golf Clubs from Scotland" website only has one line. After a lot of searching I finally found a newspaper article from 1958 that gave a little more detail. Norrie was originally from Elie in Fife. He began his apprenticeship in Fife and in 1921 he moved to Glasgow and worked at the St. Andrew Golf Co for two years, in the early 1930s a sports shop opened in Motherwell and Norrie was the club maker. So the Elie, Fife reference is to his birthplace and not where he made his clubs.

 

The following snippet was particularly intriguing:

"Recently, and appreciating the difficulty in obtaining persimmon, he turned his attention towards perfecting a new type of all-metal club head. Work on this has progressed, and the day may not be far distant when the golfer of the time can really boast of owning all-metal clubs and drivers."

 

Unfortunately the article didn't go into any further detail, does anybody know any more of this development?

 

 

[Chris122]

Mr Penna has related on here how uncle Toney's inspiration for the M-85 'wingback' Macgregor irons was an old 'Scotch club' in a barrel located in the attic where the men smoked their cigars,looking at the putter there's a resemblance is there not?

Another excellent post Jiggered.

 

Addendum;

 

William Mills who opened the first aluminium foundry took out a patent for metal headed golf clubs,Mills-Braid putters are well known but did he produce 'wooden' heads?

I mention him because I happened to notice that his mother's maiden name was Kirkaldy.

Could there be a connection there with Andrew and thence to Fife?

Holmes or Stixman......?

[stixman]

I think the M85s pre-date Jiggered's Norrie Thomson irons by a decade. It would be fun to find an early inspirational source for them (M85s), true enough, but it would have to be pre-War, I'm thinking.

 

Mills only produced Alloy clubs, some had wooden inserts.

 

Donaldson's of Glasgow experimented with an all metal design wood. It had a framework construction with a metal face mounted on it, technically sound but it didn't catch on. The St Andrew Golf Co and Donaldson's were geographically in the same part of Scotland so there maybe a connection there, but it's pretty speculative.

[Chris122]

I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned 'wooden' clubs,I wondered if Mills had tried casting aluminium 'wood' heads.

[stixman]

I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned 'wooden' clubs,I wondered if Mills had tried casting aluminium 'wood' heads.

 

Oh, right.

Well, absolutely he did. The best range looked very similar to prototype hybrid/ rescue clubs of today....just a little harder to hit. I think they were designated the BSD model.

[Jiggered]

Mr Penna has related on here how uncle Toney's inspiration for the M-85 'wingback' Macgregor irons was an old 'Scotch club' in a barrel located in the attic where the men smoked their cigars,looking at the putter there's a resemblance is there not?

 

Here's a picture of a 3 iron (not one of mine) with the wingback style of the putter, whether or not it's old enough to be the inspiration for the M85 I wouldn't know.

 

 

[stixman]

Mr Penna has related on here how uncle Toney's inspiration for the M-85 'wingback' Macgregor irons was an old 'Scotch club' in a barrel located in the attic where the men smoked their cigars,looking at the putter there's a resemblance is there not?

 

Here's a picture of a 3 iron (not one of mine) with the wingback style of the putter, whether or not it's old enough to be the inspiration for the M85 I wouldn't know.

 

 

 

What shaft is in it?

[Jiggered]

Sorry, I don't know for sure but I think it's steel.

[Chris122]

Given the biographical details Norrie appears to have worked 1st quarter of the 20thC,pre-war and therefore predating the Mac 85's but the TT Pro-Fit shafts are 50's aren't they?

Maybe they are a store line club sold by the Motherwell sports shop who bought the Norrie Thomson of Fife brand rather than being a boutique clubmaker's product?

[Chris122]

Exciting day out today at Ganton G.C.,North Yorkshire,venue for the 1949 Ryder Cup,the US team captained by Ben Hogan.

The weather was horrible,showers and drizzle,unbelievably cold with (fortunately) only a slight breeze.

On arrival we had coffee,sandwiches,delicious pork pie and home-made fruit cake preceded by a brief tour of the main rooms by the caddy-master,I swear I detected the lingering aroma of the linament Hogan used on his recovering legs in the main locker room and an echo of his instructions to Jimmy to practice harder!

The welcome we received could not have been warmer,the clubhouse is fantastic,walls covered in pictures from past tournaments and the course as it developed over the years and the trophy cabinet is breathtaking.

The course is not long,6445 yards off the yellow tees,par 72.

What makes it tough is the bunkering,yawning,deep fairway bunkers which put a premium on accurate tee shots,it's possible to play wide of them into the semi-rough but then you have to contend with strategically placed cross or greenside bunkers to reach the putting surface.

The greens are fairly big with plenty of slopes and swales to keep you guessing,due to the abysmal winter we've had they were not at their best today,several had been dressed and the rain had turned the dressing into muddy clumps which made gauging pace somewhat difficult,I had at least six putts dead on line stop an inch or so from dropping....c'est la vie.

We played Stableford 9/10 allowance,I managed a miserable 25 points,playing with a bad back and in honour of the occasion with Apex II irons and Tad Moore putter,the winner had 29 points.

Overall it was a tough day,the rough was thick and very wet,frequent showers and bitterly cold,very difficult to keep hands and muscles warm and loose but it was easy to see why Ganton is such a highly rated golf course.

It is a gem and I hope to return on a kinder day.

[elwhippy]

Glad you had a great time at Ganton. It has a reputation as the finest course in the North of England, above Alwoodley and Lindrick and can be quite intimidating to visitors. Visited a while back with a friend, whose son was playing in a national competition and could not even get a sandwich in the bar. The course was awesome, the welcome less so.