Dynamic Gold weld seam alignment

[trumb1mj1]

When installing steel DG shafts, where should the weld seam be positioned for best performance and the most consistent feel?

[trumb1mj1]

Bump. Can anyone help?

[nbg352]

Steel shafts are extruded not welded, I believe

[jmck]

Search around here for "[url="https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=spine+alignment+site:golfwrx.com"]spine alignment[/url]." Though be forewarned it's a real rabbit hole of information. And if that isn't a big enough rabbit hole, give [url="http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/index.php"]Dave Tutelman[/url] a try.

If you're looking for a quick and dirty answer that you don't have to think too much about, I'd recommend putting the seam/spine/weld/whatever-you-want-to-call-it at 12:00, with the theory being that your neutral bend point is going to end up somewhere close to the 9:00-3:00 plane.

[nbg352]

There is no seam or spine in a steel shaft.

[Choppy]

9 o'clock position/towards the target is usually the most recommended orientation.

[duffer888]

Don't the rules of golf state that a shaft must be homogenous? If so, I can't see how shaft alignment would make any real difference.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='duffer888' timestamp='1445962171' post='12513232']
Don't the rules of golf state that a shaft must be homogenous? If so, I can't see how shaft alignment would make any real difference.
[/quote]

You have to go into the more detailed "Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls" from the USGA to find this but the rules really state that the shaft must be [u]designed[/u] to have symmetrical properties and manufactured with the intent of having symmetrical behavior. The USGA recognizes that the manufacturing process can result in some variations that might not make the shaft perfectly symmetrical in behavior and allows a "reasonable" tolerance.

[jmck]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445959473' post='12512958']
Steel shafts are extruded not welded, I believe
[/quote]

Nope. A shaft like PX is made using draw benches, which while they do turn something solid into a tube it is through a different process than extrusion. A shaft like DG is indeed welded, and has been for--what?--fifty or sixty years now.

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445961083' post='12513100']
There is no seam or spine in a steel shaft.
[/quote]

Nope again. You can certainly argue that it's not important, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist. You can look down the butt end of a DG shaft and SEE where it is welded together, as I'm sure the OP has.

As to the OP, be very careful that you understand that the terminology here is very muddled. Be sure you understand the difference between spine and neutral bend point. That's really an important distinction--they're more or less opposite concepts but too many people use "spine" when they actually mean "NBP."

[nbg352]

[quote name='jmck' timestamp='1445963879' post='12513380']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445959473' post='12512958']
Steel shafts are extruded not welded, I believe
[/quote]

Nope. A shaft like PX is made using draw benches, which while they do turn something solid into a tube it is through a different process than extrusion. A shaft like DG is indeed welded, and has been for--what?--fifty or sixty years now.

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445961083' post='12513100']
There is no seam or spine in a steel shaft.
[/quote]

Nope again. You can certainly argue that it's not important, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist. You can look down the butt end of a DG shaft and SEE where it is welded together, as I'm sure the OP has.

As to the OP, be very careful that you understand that the terminology here is very muddled. Be sure you understand the difference between spine and neutral bend point. That's really an important distinction--they're more or less opposite concepts but too many people use "spine" when they actually mean "NBP."
[/quote]
Can you please link me? I watched a TT documentary which showed the mfg process. The term extrusion was used many times and showed a single piece of steel being formed into a shaft with no welding necessary.
I am not trying to be argumentative.....I just want to know and see the process you describe.

[jmck]

Can you please link me? I watched a TT documentary which showed the mfg process. The term extrusion was used many times and showed a single piece of steel being formed into a shaft with no welding necessary.

I am not trying to be argumentative.....I just want to know and see the process you describe.

 

No prob. Here's a pretty short and sweet summary. I'm a little surprised the TT guys were using the term extrusion as it isn't accurate, though the processes are really quite similar, and certainly share the purpose of turning a solid ingot into a long thin tube--probably just shorthand the TT guys have gotten used to using. The difference is an extrusion machine pushes material through a die, while a draw bench machine pulls (or "draws") the material through a die. The more important difference for golf shaft manufacturers is metal drawing is cheaper for small, uncomplicated shapes (which, compared to an awful lot of other metal products, a golf shaft certainly is) because it's easier (again, read cheaper) to do cold. Extrusion is better for bigger, more complicated shapes which are best done hot. Welding is cheaper still, and DGs are definitely 100% welded and always have been. Funny timeline on that site I linked to--TT introduced the Dynamic shaft in 1942! It's even older than I guessed! Pretty much 100% of shafts were welded before Rifle came out with their Precision line sometime in the mid 80s.

 

I'd love a link to the TT doc if it's online. Here's a pic from that article clearly showing a weld seam:

 

[nbg352]

Can you please link me? I watched a TT documentary which showed the mfg process. The term extrusion was used many times and showed a single piece of steel being formed into a shaft with no welding necessary.

I am not trying to be argumentative.....I just want to know and see the process you describe.

 

No prob. Here's a pretty short and sweet summary. I'm a little surprised the TT guys were using the term extrusion as it isn't accurate, though the processes are really quite similar, and certainly share the purpose of turning a solid ingot into a long thin tube--probably just shorthand the TT guys have gotten used to using. The difference is an extrusion machine pushes material through a die, while a draw bench machine pulls (or "draws") the material through a die. The more important difference for golf shaft manufacturers is metal drawing is cheaper for small, uncomplicated shapes (which, compared to an awful lot of other metal products, a golf shaft certainly is) because it's easier (again, read cheaper) to do cold. Extrusion is better for bigger, more complicated shapes which are best done hot. Welding is cheaper still, and DGs are definitely 100% welded and always have been. Funny timeline on that site I linked to--TT introduced the Dynamic shaft in 1942! It's even older than I guessed! Pretty much 100% of shafts were welded before Rifle came out with their Precision line sometime in the mid 80s.

 

I'd love a link to the TT doc if it's online. Here's a pic from that article clearly showing a weld seam:

 

It's a series...History or A&E. I believe it`s called ``How Do They Make That``

[nbg352]

Can you please link me? I watched a TT documentary which showed the mfg process. The term extrusion was used many times and showed a single piece of steel being formed into a shaft with no welding necessary.

I am not trying to be argumentative.....I just want to know and see the process you describe.

 

No prob. Here's a pretty short and sweet summary. I'm a little surprised the TT guys were using the term extrusion as it isn't accurate, though the processes are really quite similar, and certainly share the purpose of turning a solid ingot into a long thin tube--probably just shorthand the TT guys have gotten used to using. The difference is an extrusion machine pushes material through a die, while a draw bench machine pulls (or "draws") the material through a die. The more important difference for golf shaft manufacturers is metal drawing is cheaper for small, uncomplicated shapes (which, compared to an awful lot of other metal products, a golf shaft certainly is) because it's easier (again, read cheaper) to do cold. Extrusion is better for bigger, more complicated shapes which are best done hot. Welding is cheaper still, and DGs are definitely 100% welded and always have been. Funny timeline on that site I linked to--TT introduced the Dynamic shaft in 1942! It's even older than I guessed! Pretty much 100% of shafts were welded before Rifle came out with their Precision line sometime in the mid 80s.

 

I'd love a link to the TT doc if it's online. Here's a pic from that article clearly showing a weld seam:

 

It's a series...History or A&E. I believe it`s called ``How Do They Make That``

The link you provided shows the method you mention Drawing.....That is how TT Gold is made and it is a seamless operation.

Cheaper shafts like the TT Commando, do have a welded seam.

I have both in inventory and while it is possible to see a seam on the Commando, none is apparent on the DG.

The photo of the seamed or welded shaft in the article you directed me to, is merely an example of the method. It is not a DG shaft, though it may be a Commando.

[Stuart_G]

I have no idea what method TT uses for each of it's shaft models but

1) steel shafts can be made by either being "welded" or through seemless methods and
2) welded tube blanks can be drawn and extruded for further modifications so the two terms are not necessarily exclusive of each other.

[TrueTemper]

Hey all, this video maybe a little old but the process is still very similar to what you see here.

[url="https://youtu.be/Z99TDtOJ_UM"]https://youtu.be/Z99TDtOJ_UM[/url]

Almost of all our shafts are welded tubes, including PX, DG, XP..... We use heat treating process to make the weld seam disappear into the steel (from a material properties standpoint) so that the grain structure is the same through out the cylinder.

DB

[Choppy]

So glad True Temper chimed in here. There's a lot of bad info in this thread.

[Bad9]

[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445970080' post='12513972']
So glad True Temper chimed in here. There's a lot of bad info in this thread.
[/quote]

There sure is. IIRC the original UK Apollo was the only company that made it's shafts from unwelded tubes but they been gone for 10+ years.

[nbg352]

[quote name='TrueTemper' timestamp='1445969627' post='12513918']
Hey all, this video maybe a little old but the process is still very similar to what you see here.

[url="https://youtu.be/Z99TDtOJ_UM"]https://youtu.be/Z99TDtOJ_UM[/url]

Almost of all our shafts are welded tubes, including PX, DG, XP..... We use heat treating process to make the weld seam disappear into the steel (from a material properties standpoint) so that the grain structure is the same through out the cylinder.

DB
[/quote]
Always learning, LOL. Thanks for the lesson.
Is it possible or even desirable to spine a TT DG or any other of your fine steel shafts?

Thanks,

Warren

[trumb1mj1]

Thanks for the responses, guys. There are definitely visible seams on the TT shafts I've worked with (DG S200, S300, X100). I don't really care how the seam is bonded but more interested in information on whether the seam position can be correlated to performance?

[nbg352]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1445970366' post='12513998']
[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445970080' post='12513972']
So glad True Temper chimed in here. There's a lot of bad info in this thread.
[/quote]

There sure is. IIRC the original UK Apollo was the only company that made it's shafts from unwelded tubes but they been gone for 10+ years.
[/quote]
Nice that you've managed to chime in now that we've heard from TT. If you were aware that the info was incorrect, you might have come in a little earlier.......

[Bad9]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445971133' post='12514068']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1445970366' post='12513998']
[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445970080' post='12513972']
So glad True Temper chimed in here. There's a lot of bad info in this thread.
[/quote]

There sure is. IIRC the original UK Apollo was the only company that made it's shafts from unwelded tubes but they been gone for 10+ years.
[/quote]
Nice that you've managed to chime in now that we've heard from TT. If you were aware that the info was incorrect, you might have come in a little earlier.......
[/quote]

I chimed in when I read it.

[Choppy]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445971133' post='12514068']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1445970366' post='12513998']
[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445970080' post='12513972']
So glad True Temper chimed in here. There's a lot of bad info in this thread.
[/quote]

There sure is. IIRC the original UK Apollo was the only company that made it's shafts from unwelded tubes but they been gone for 10+ years.
[/quote]
Nice that you've managed to chime in now that we've heard from TT. If you were aware that the info was incorrect, you might have come in a little earlier.......
[/quote]

You seemed confident in your reply so I wasn't about to get into a pi$$ing match.

[vangator1]

I spine align and FLO my shafts. I have TTDGS300 shafts and they are great. It's easy to find the spine, but when I FLO the shafts, the oscillation is horizontal for every rotation except at 90* (+/- 5*) from the NBP (Natural Bend Point). Really stable. I do align the NBP toward my target. Graphite is another story.

It is difficult to find the seam in a TT shaft. but I know it's there.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445972325' post='12514178']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1445971133' post='12514068']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1445970366' post='12513998']
[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445970080' post='12513972']
So glad True Temper chimed in here. There's a lot of bad info in this thread.
[/quote]

There sure is. IIRC the original UK Apollo was the only company that made it's shafts from unwelded tubes but they been gone for 10+ years.
[/quote]
Nice that you've managed to chime in now that we've heard from TT. If you were aware that the info was incorrect, you might have come in a little earlier.......
[/quote]

You seemed confident in your reply so I wasn't about to get into a pi$$ing match.
[/quote]
My confidence was based on info from a respected docu series and reinforced by the link provided by jmck..
Wrong is wrong. These threads help us learn. If one of us is wrong, it's up to others to straighten us out.
Personally, I'm glad TT came into the thread. Now we all know how it is made. All that's left is to find out if spining can or should be done.
Thanks for your input. It was ummm...timely.

[Choppy]

Check the thread. I already told him where to align the spine. You were the one shouting from the rooftops that there isn't a spine. Why is it my job to correct you?

[Socrates]

Threads happen so fast, that those who know, sometimes get in late. Better late than never if you can get confirmation from the horses mouth.

When spinning, truing first came around a number of years ago, TT didn't believe in it and I was told it was a non-factor. I don't know if that is still their position. (I personally don't believe in it). For appearances sake, I do align every TT shaft so that the center of the silkscreen logo at the bottom faces out. Unless I am told to orient it otherwise.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Choppy' timestamp='1445974077' post='12514346']
Check the thread. I already told him where to align the spine. You were the one shouting from the rooftops that there isn't a spine. Why is it my job to correct you?
[/quote]
You're right. You should just let my misconceptions stay out there..........
I'm happy to be corrected. I learn...we all learn, right?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='trumb1mj1' timestamp='1445882275' post='12508752']
When installing steel DG shafts, where should the weld seam be positioned for best performance and the most consistent feel?
[/quote]

The welding "seam" in the DG's and other TT shafts is done by high freq welding on the ends of the coiled strip of carbon steel, so there is no second material introduced to the joint . After HF welding the shafts are drawn and reduced numerous times so that by the time you get down to the actual shaft, an X Ray cannot see the welding seam on the shafts. Hence for all intents and purposes there is no reason to ever think about this in the installation of the shafts.

[gprointraining]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1445983448' post='12515190']
[quote name='trumb1mj1' timestamp='1445882275' post='12508752']
When installing steel DG shafts, where should the weld seam be positioned for best performance and the most consistent feel?
[/quote]

The welding "seam" in the DG's and other TT shafts is done by high freq welding on the ends of the coiled strip of carbon steel, so there is no second material introduced to the joint . After HF welding the shafts are drawn and reduced numerous times so that by the time you get down to the actual shaft, an X Ray cannot see the welding seam on the shafts. Hence for all intents and purposes there is no reason to ever think about this in the installation of the shafts.
[/quote]

Thank you so much for continuing to step in and give us clarification on these issues Tom. Just want you to know you are appreciated.

[vangator1]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1445983448' post='12515190']
[quote name='trumb1mj1' timestamp='1445882275' post='12508752']
When installing steel DG shafts, where should the weld seam be positioned for best performance and the most consistent feel?
[/quote]

The welding "seam" in the DG's and other TT shafts is done by high freq welding on the ends of the coiled strip of carbon steel, so there is no second material introduced to the joint . After HF welding the shafts are drawn and reduced numerous times so that by the time you get down to the actual shaft, an X Ray cannot see the welding seam on the shafts. Hence for all intents and purposes there is no reason to ever think about this in the installation of the shafts.
[/quote]

When I FLO'd my TTDGS300's, I found the shaft would oscillate back and forth from just about any orientation except when the NBP was at 12:00. The shaft would consistently oscillate in an oval. So I made sure the NBP was at 9:00 on all my shafts. What the effect is if the orientation were random, I don't know, but I feel better about aligning them for sure.