One example of arms not being completely passive.

[Grayback1973]

Good stuff Monte.It's clear from the post impact photos that the clubface is rolled shut much more in the before shots.

[Golf nerd]

Here is a guy who came to me for the first time this week. He shoots mid 80s, hits lots of blocks and hooks, but rarely has a "compressed draw," in his words.

 

He has been doing fire the lower body as hard as he can and letting arms and hands be passive and drop.

 

All I did was tell him to start the arms a little sooner and have them work diagonally forward. Look how much less face roll after impact. In other words, sometimes more (correct) arm action creates a better pivot and more stable release.

 

Mahan and Johnson talk about starting the arms first. Andy and Mike talk about zero tension is as bad as too much tension.

 

It's about avoiding all extremes.

 

Not to be meant as critique, but as the student seem to come from a very rotational bias, would more shoulder turn have helped also? He seems to be very flexible (lots of separation) and if he would turn his upper body more the shaft would kick out as reaction and the club would not come so much from inside. How was the top of the backswing? Short or long arm swing, very deep hands maybe?

[KMeloney]

Monte, I'm wondering if you could make some distinctions for me.

 

Does "start the arms a little sooner" also necessitate a deliberate delaying of the hips? Can you only start the arms earlier IF you're delaying the hip action?

 

Does "start the arms a little soonerr" go along with the feels talked about sometimes as "keeping the back to the target longer," and/or when pros have talked about "covering the ball" with the chest at impact? Or are these things unrelated?

 

Thank you.

[MonteScheinblum]

Monte, I'm wondering if you could make some distinctions for me.

 

Does "start the arms a little sooner" also necessitate a deliberate delaying of the hips? Can you only start the arms earlier IF you're delaying the hip action?

 

Does "start the arms a little soonerr" go along with the feels talked about sometimes as "keeping the back to the target longer," and/or when pros have talked about "covering the ball" with the chest at impact? Or are these things unrelated?

 

Thank you.

 

I don't like delaying the hips and only do it when it's absolutely necessary. Back to the target is in the same vein.

 

Covering the ball is something different.

 

 

[PepsiDuck]

Monte, I'm wondering if you could make some distinctions for me.

 

Does "start the arms a little sooner" also necessitate a deliberate delaying of the hips? Can you only start the arms earlier IF you're delaying the hip action?

 

Does "start the arms a little soonerr" go along with the feels talked about sometimes as "keeping the back to the target longer," and/or when pros have talked about "covering the ball" with the chest at impact? Or are these things unrelated?

 

Thank you.

 

From my experience, any conscious delaying/stalling/holding back/et. al. is a terrible idea. I *think* Monte would agree that the better solution for syncing the upper and lower body is a more hip turn combined with arms starting sooner. A deeper hip turn gives the arms more time to "catch up," so to speak, thus eliminating any need to delay the hips.

 

But I merely speculate... :dntknw:

[MonteScheinblum]

Here is a guy who came to me for the first time this week. He shoots mid 80s, hits lots of blocks and hooks, but rarely has a "compressed draw," in his words.

 

He has been doing fire the lower body as hard as he can and letting arms and hands be passive and drop.

 

All I did was tell him to start the arms a little sooner and have them work diagonally forward. Look how much less face roll after impact. In other words, sometimes more (correct) arm action creates a better pivot and more stable release.

 

Mahan and Johnson talk about starting the arms first. Andy and Mike talk about zero tension is as bad as too much tension.

 

It's about avoiding all extremes.

 

Not to be meant as critique, but as the student seem to come from a very rotational bias, would more shoulder turn have helped also? He seems to be very flexible (lots of separation) and if he would turn his upper body more the shaft would kick out as reaction and the club would not come so much from inside. How was the top of the backswing? Short or long arm swing, very deep hands maybe?

 

If the amd are dropping, just turning shoulders won't help. They are behind torso too.

[starsail85]

I'd be interested to see the top of backswing position Monte

[KMeloney]

Thanks for the reply! So, when you folks say to stat the arms "sooner," I guess I'm just not clear on what they're starting "sooner" THAN.

 

Sooner than... you have been? (That will take a conscious effort to probably shorten the backswing and get the arms moving sooner in the weight/pressure shift.)

 

Sooner than... the hips? (Seems like there'd have to be some delay of the start of the hips, at least initially.)

 

...Or sooner than something else?

 

I ask as someone who can get stuck like the "before" photos show. I've hit balls before with good results where I felt like I started my arms early and then used my hips to kind of grab and then push the swing from there (almost like the sensation of being pushed on a playground swing, where the swing is the arms, and after a little drop the hips--like someone pushing you on the swing--sync up at the right moment and then support the momentum from there). I just didn't know if it was "correct," or whether it was going to be powerless in the long run.

[MonteScheinblum]

Thanks for the reply! So, when you folks say to stat the arms "sooner," I guess I'm just not clear on what they're starting "sooner" THAN.

 

Sooner than... you have been? (That will take a conscious effort to probably shorten the backswing and get the arms moving sooner in the weight/pressure shift.)

 

Sooner than... the hips? (Seems like there'd have to be some delay of the start of the hips, at least initially.)

 

...Or sooner than something else?

 

I ask as someone who can get stuck like the "before" photos show. I've hit balls before with good results where I felt like I started my arms early and then used my hips to kind of grab and then push the swing from there (almost like the sensation of being pushed on a playground swing, where the swing is the arms, and after a little drop the hips--like someone pushing you on the swing--sync up at the right moment and then support the momentum from there). I just didn't know if it was "correct," or whether it was going to be powerless in the long run.

 

The hips are always first, we're just trying to reduce the interval...so arms sooner than they start now. It's also very directional, diagonally forward versus down.

[KMeloney]

The hips are always first, we're just trying to reduce the interval...so arms sooner than they start now. It's also very directional, diagonally forward versus down.

 

Ah, ok. Thank you.

 

For better clarification, when you talk about "pulling the handle" as a bad thing, do you think of that action as just the STRAIGHT DOWN, initial "pulling the (bell) rope" image? Or, is it that straight down motion AND the idea of driving the butt of the club further down the line in the downswing, too? I've seen in Golf Digest, for instance, where an instructor will discuss the frames of a pro's swing sequence, and often there will be mention of the butt of the club pointing at the ball, that he's on plane there, and can let it rip from there, etc. Is getting there a result of "pulling the handle," or is the idea of the butt of the club pointing at the ball unrelated to "pulling the handle"?

 

Maybe I'm simply asking if the idea of leading with the butt of the club is the same thing as or different than "pulling the handle." Seems that a sense of a diagonal move toward impact doesn't involve any sense of leading with the butt of the club...

 

This is really helpful to me in understanding these discussions. Hopefully it's helpful for others, too.

[MonteScheinblum]

Dignally forward absolutely leads with the butt, but the elbow moves more. Pulling the handle is the butt down too much.

[KMeloney]

Dignally forward absolutely leads with the butt, but the elbow moves more. Pulling the handle is the butt down too much.

 

Thanks for taking the time to wade through my questions! Excellent response(s). Thanks Monte.