Oceans Eleven Confessions to break a man's heart....

[skullshot]

Thanks to all who wished me happy b-day and for the upbeat takes on turning 60. My older sister was especially inspiring. She said "It's all downhill from here," which was great news since coasting downhill is a lot easier than an uphill slog

 

skull

[scotee]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

I have to agree with MJ. Sorry Ninge but I don’t quite get the bounce argument yet either. When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf. On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all. I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works.

 

I'm not going to repeat everything I've already stated to Matt J. If you are going to argue with me, all I ask is that you please read everything I've stated. I mention this because. All you have done is mention a technique above and you have NOT contrasted the same technique based on applying it the same way with both a high and low bounce club. And what I'm saying is if you perform those very same techniques using a high and low bounce club, you will find ALL the same shots easier with the low bounce club. Let's just look at a few of your specific points...

 

"When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf."

 

If you expose a blunted leading edge the same exact way with shaft lean as mentioned above, then you will come to the same dead stop and you may even do it sooner. Again, all my points are based on ALL things equal. This argument you used is NOT a comparison of the two different bounce clubheads given the same type of shot.

 

"On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. "

 

Again, you can do this technique with both high and low bounce clubs and the lower bounce club is ultimately thinner and will actually glide under the ball with LESS drag force than the higher bounce one. Again, it appears to me that you applied one technique that is different than shaft lean and then you are claiming it is the bounce that helped you. Sorry, it is simply the technique. And again, assuming the SAME technique, the lower bounce club is still (theoretically and 100% backed by the science) EASIER by comparison.

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

 

"I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. "

 

Again, you are talking technique here and not the relative differences that the two different bounces will make whilst using the same technique. I challenge you to really try this exercise with the SAME technique but with different bounce clubs (same loft and everything else). I will tell you right now that the lower bounce club will be EASIER to slide under those dimes than the high bounce one, again using the same technique. Remember too, a low bounce club still has a rounded bottom and it still has a rounded leading edge. It's just that both of these are LESS than the high bounce club. But that low bounce rounded bottom will still help you based on what you described. With the lower bounce club you won't need to push as much turf downward to get under the dime. But also you need to have an open mind when you try the test. If you have a bias in your mind, then that will play into your results.

 

"I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works."

 

And I'm just trying to expand your understanding. And I really do understand your perspective. I had it too until I really evaluated the science without the marketing bias of it. Everything I stated is supported by the laws of physics. If it is not, then I am all ears where I violated a law or just missed something. But I'm willing to bet I'm 100% right and take up the discussion with any PhD physicist.

 

 

OK I see we are not talking about the same thing i.e. different technique vs. the merits of different bounce angles. In your reply to Matt you said you were assuming ideal ball first contact. In my "using the bounce" technique (and in sand) I am purposely hitting the big ball before the little ball. I see that not as introducing error but an adjustment in technique.

 

One more example from my no math, no science, nonsense point of view :) I look at bounce like snow skis. Skis are curved up at the tips to keep them moving up over the snow and not digging into or under the snow. I see it the same for bounce. The more bounce the higher the leading edge sits above the ground. And yes I agree that a high bounce wedge from a hard tight lie makes it more likely to blade the shot. Bounce you say slows down the club. I can see that. But doesn’t it also affect the vertical direction of the club i.e. more bounce means more upward movement through the sand or snow because of the steeper ramp?

 

 

 

 

Signed and numbered copies of my artwork can be found at scotee.com. Paypal accepted

 

If ignorance is bliss, I am a very happy man.

[billh17]

Thanks to all who wished me happy b-day and for the upbeat takes on turning 60. My older sister was especially inspiring. She said "It's all downhill from here," which was great news since coasting downhill is a lot easier than an uphill slog

 

skull

 

you know Skull....she may be onto something.....I have absolutely noticed that time seems to be flying by ....much quicker than when i was in my 50's...

her "downhill from here " may be whats wrong !

[DeNinny]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

I have to agree with MJ. Sorry Ninge but I don’t quite get the bounce argument yet either. When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf. On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all. I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works.

 

I'm not going to repeat everything I've already stated to Matt J. If you are going to argue with me, all I ask is that you please read everything I've stated. I mention this because. All you have done is mention a technique above and you have NOT contrasted the same technique based on applying it the same way with both a high and low bounce club. And what I'm saying is if you perform those very same techniques using a high and low bounce club, you will find ALL the same shots easier with the low bounce club. Let's just look at a few of your specific points...

 

"When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf."

 

If you expose a blunted leading edge the same exact way with shaft lean as mentioned above, then you will come to the same dead stop and you may even do it sooner. Again, all my points are based on ALL things equal. This argument you used is NOT a comparison of the two different bounce clubheads given the same type of shot.

 

"On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. "

 

Again, you can do this technique with both high and low bounce clubs and the lower bounce club is ultimately thinner and will actually glide under the ball with LESS drag force than the higher bounce one. Again, it appears to me that you applied one technique that is different than shaft lean and then you are claiming it is the bounce that helped you. Sorry, it is simply the technique. And again, assuming the SAME technique, the lower bounce club is still (theoretically and 100% backed by the science) EASIER by comparison.

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

 

"I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. "

 

Again, you are talking technique here and not the relative differences that the two different bounces will make whilst using the same technique. I challenge you to really try this exercise with the SAME technique but with different bounce clubs (same loft and everything else). I will tell you right now that the lower bounce club will be EASIER to slide under those dimes than the high bounce one, again using the same technique. Remember too, a low bounce club still has a rounded bottom and it still has a rounded leading edge. It's just that both of these are LESS than the high bounce club. But that low bounce rounded bottom will still help you based on what you described. With the lower bounce club you won't need to push as much turf downward to get under the dime. But also you need to have an open mind when you try the test. If you have a bias in your mind, then that will play into your results.

 

"I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works."

 

And I'm just trying to expand your understanding. And I really do understand your perspective. I had it too until I really evaluated the science without the marketing bias of it. Everything I stated is supported by the laws of physics. If it is not, then I am all ears where I violated a law or just missed something. But I'm willing to bet I'm 100% right and take up the discussion with any PhD physicist.

 

 

OK I see we are not talking about the same thing i.e. different technique vs. the merits of different bounce angles. In your reply to Matt you said you were assuming ideal ball first contact. In my "using the bounce" technique (and in sand) I am purposely hitting the big ball before the little ball. I see that not as introducing error but an adjustment in technique.

 

One more example from my no math, no science, nonsense point of view :) I look at bounce like snow skis. Skis are curved up at the tips to keep them moving up over the snow and not digging into or under the snow. I see it the same for bounce. The more bounce the higher the leading edge sits above the ground. And yes I agree that a high bounce wedge from a hard tight lie makes it more likely to blade the shot. Bounce you say slows down the club. I can see that. But doesn’t it also affect the vertical direction of the club i.e. more bounce means more upward movement through the sand or snow because of the steeper ramp?

 

 

 

 

Signed and numbered copies of my artwork can be found at scotee.com. Paypal accepted

 

If ignorance is bliss, I am a very happy man.

 

scoteef, you cannot view the club like those skis that freely glide over the top of the snow. The ground is very soft compared to a hard metal clubhead traveling at up to 100 mph. And BOTH clubheads will start pushing the substrate out of the way instead of the head (and shaft and hands and arms) rerouting. The lower bounce club does this easier. I am repeating myself now so to reiterate my rebuttal to this, I have cut/paste the specific part which is also in what you quoted by me...

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

...

 

I don't know how many different ways that I can explain the same thing, so there it is again.

 

Also, here is some additional food for thought:

 

- Do you really think, over the distance that a high bounce club supposedly "saves" a fat shot, that SOFT ground actually is firm enough to reroute the entire mass of cluhead, shaft, hands, and arms of the golfer? When the clubhead is moving at up to 100mph?

 

- As I challenged Conrad earlier, compare how much you can deflect the turf and dirt without taking a divot to simulate that "non digging" miss. And then compare this to how different the actual bounces on two clubs are. The bounce difference is VERY small. The ground always gives way to the clubhead over the distances of concern. And yes I get that eventually the ground will compact and either stop or reroute all the swing mass, but again this is outside the area of concern.

 

- Consider the digging side now. The bottom of the low bounce club is still curved. It is not going to dig straight down and again the ground will give way to it. The low bounce club does the same thing as the high bounce one. Both just follow the natural clubhead path and when they hit the ground they move it out of the way, losing velocity as this happens. But the low bounce club loses LESS velocity. You will at least hit a fat shot with this club with just slightly more velocity and the result won't be as bad as a high bounce club.

[billh17]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

Bill is rehabbing his shoulder. He's still here. Sixty had a bout with a bacterial pneumonia or bronchitis. Both from Ohio. IIRC. Hope everything is okay with Sixty.

 

still working on the shoulder...i dislocated it,and tore tendon and strained ligaments when i did. It is taking a lot longer than i figured.

I have been doing 1/2 swings for a week......i am told it may be another month before i can start on a strengthening regimen.

All they are trying to do now is keep it from tightening up any more.....

Hey...i did get to see a set of Wishon Sterlings...Look nice....have now talked to 2 guys who have gone through the fitting and hit them...

they both purchased a set....man...i was hoping to be playing a set this summer.Now,i am just hoping to be playing at all !

But ...I still like the looks of the 575's forged better....and I KNOW how i was hitting those !!!

like you guys,i hope sixty is ok.

[Conrad1953]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

Yes, when playing from the rough and hitting an explosion shot the higher

bounce wedge is less likely to go under the ball and miss the ball completely.

 

I'll think of more later.

[Conrad1953]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

Bill is rehabbing his shoulder. He's still here. Sixty had a bout with a bacterial pneumonia or bronchitis. Both from Ohio. IIRC. Hope everything is okay with Sixty.

 

still working on the shoulder...i dislocated it,and tore tendon and strained ligaments when i did. It is taking a lot longer than i figured.

I have been doing 1/2 swings for a week......i am told it may be another month before i can start on a strengthening regimen.

All they are trying to do now is keep it from tightening up any more.....

Hey...i did get to see a set of Wishon Sterlings...Look nice....have now talked to 2 guys who have gone through the fitting and hit them...

they both purchased a set....man...i was hoping to be playing a set this summer.Now,i am just hoping to be playing at all !

But ...I still like the looks of the 575's forged better....and I KNOW how i was hitting those !!!

like you guys,i hope sixty is ok.

 

Would you go 8 iron or 7 iron length? For me I would think shorter is better

and go 8 iron....and I think that is what Tom recommends. 5 or 6 iron length

never made sense to me since I see only a benefit impacting a couple clubs

and maybe not any if you use any hybrids.

[Michael C.]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

Yes, when playing from the rough and hitting an explosion shot the higher

bounce wedge is less likely to go under the ball and miss the ball completely.

 

I'll think of more later.

 

LMAO!

 

I KNOW!!!

 

LMAO!

[DeNinny]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

Yes, when playing from the rough and hitting an explosion shot the higher

bounce wedge is less likely to go under the ball and miss the ball completely.

 

I'll think of more later.

 

Not true when you consider the whole face surface area of the club. The added area high bounce is MINISCULE compared to the total surface area of the clubface. That LITTLE bit does NOT change the clubhead path.

 

Also you don't swing the low bounce club ANY lower than the high bounce one.

 

Also the low bounce one also has a curved bottom.

 

Try to think of reasons that areactually supported by the physics.

[DeNinny]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

Yes, when playing from the rough and hitting an explosion shot the higher

bounce wedge is less likely to go under the ball and miss the ball completely.

 

I'll think of more later.

 

LMAO!

 

I KNOW!!!

 

LMAO!

 

Honestly, you really don't know.

[Michael C.]

I just got back from playing 9 at the big boy course. Played the whites, though. 3 birdies and a triple for 37. Lol. 5 greens. 13 putts.

 

Started with a dang triple. Hooked drive, punch out, missed green, bad wedge, okay wedge, 2 putts = 7......every time I add it up. :no2:

[Conrad1953]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

Yes, when playing from the rough and hitting an explosion shot the higher

bounce wedge is less likely to go under the ball and miss the ball completely.

 

I'll think of more later.

 

Not true when you consider the whole face surface area of the club. The added area high bounce is MINISCULE compared to the total surface area of the clubface. That LITTLE bit does NOT change the clubhead path.

 

Also you don't swing the low bounce club ANY lower than the high bounce one.

 

Also the low bounce one also has a curved bottom.

 

Try to think of reasons that areactually supported by the physics.

 

LOL, as you say miniscule goes both ways...and the LOWER bounce wedge

provides NO advantage over a higher bounce wedge....so "head cases" rule brah!!

[Michael C.]

 

 

Honestly, you really don't know.

 

....and I'm good with that, Bro! Thanks for trying.

[billh17]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

Bill is rehabbing his shoulder. He's still here. Sixty had a bout with a bacterial pneumonia or bronchitis. Both from Ohio. IIRC. Hope everything is okay with Sixty.

 

still working on the shoulder...i dislocated it,and tore tendon and strained ligaments when i did. It is taking a lot longer than i figured.

I have been doing 1/2 swings for a week......i am told it may be another month before i can start on a strengthening regimen.

All they are trying to do now is keep it from tightening up any more.....

Hey...i did get to see a set of Wishon Sterlings...Look nice....have now talked to 2 guys who have gone through the fitting and hit them...

they both purchased a set....man...i was hoping to be playing a set this summer.Now,i am just hoping to be playing at all !

But ...I still like the looks of the 575's forged better....and I KNOW how i was hitting those !!!

like you guys,i hope sixty is ok.

 

Would you go 8 iron or 7 iron length? For me I would think shorter is better

and go 8 iron....and I think that is what Tom recommends. 5 or 6 iron length

never made sense to me since I see only a benefit impacting a couple clubs

and maybe not any if you use any hybrids.

 

set of 6 thru 9 plus PW GW SW $ 125 per club....plus the fitting is included with the price....and he has been rated as one of the best...guy just finished

his fitting on friday when i was there....he actually drove up from Mississippi so Jim could do his fitting. He seems to favor the 7 iron length,but i would

guess the fitting would carry the ball....i am like you..i think i would prefer the 8I length. My problem Rad,i am dialed in with my wedges...from 65 to 115.i

could not hope to be any better with them...i really am not sold on the longer length wedge,but that could be because i am so at ease and i will normally

be within 5 feet distance wise,and dispersion is ....well......lets say i am satisfied with it ! I can go flag hunting from 115 in,and i am in no hurry to change anything there ! I still use the old Cleveland Black Pearl 50.......54.......58........all with 6* of bounce....lol had to throw the bounce in there ......

[DeNinny]

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

Yes, when playing from the rough and hitting an explosion shot the higher

bounce wedge is less likely to go under the ball and miss the ball completely.

 

I'll think of more later.

 

Not true when you consider the whole face surface area of the club. The added area high bounce is MINISCULE compared to the total surface area of the clubface. That LITTLE bit does NOT change the clubhead path.

 

Also you don't swing the low bounce club ANY lower than the high bounce one.

 

Also the low bounce one also has a curved bottom.

 

Try to think of reasons that areactually supported by the physics.

 

LOL, as you say miniscule goes both ways...and the LOWER bounce wedge

provides NO advantage over a higher bounce wedge....so "head cases" rule brah!!

 

Theoretically it does provide an advantage. That's ALWAYS been my point. We can work out the statistical significance later. You and others have been the ones trying to find some faux science that isn't there. I'm just correcting your interpretations of it all. Simple as that.

 

I already said the same thing you did about psychology rules over the science almost all the time. We have aligned on this over numerous technical topics now, so I'm glad we are now in 'violent' agreement.

[BIG STU]

So, I decided to play with the slo-mo option on my phone. Found out something.

 

My swing looks EXACTLY like it did a year ago.

 

Is this good?

 

No.... I wanted to make some changes.

 

OR

 

Yes....because I'm hitting it well. If you watch until the end, I didn't realize I did it but, there's a nice spin and catch.

 

[media=]http://youtu.be/kLTe12dX4yQ[/media]

 

[media=]http://youtu.be/hPWXmU_Tjog[/media]

Looks and sounds like to me you are using your "natural" swing which IMHO is a great thing. No mechanics to think about

[Conrad1953]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

Bill is rehabbing his shoulder. He's still here. Sixty had a bout with a bacterial pneumonia or bronchitis. Both from Ohio. IIRC. Hope everything is okay with Sixty.

 

still working on the shoulder...i dislocated it,and tore tendon and strained ligaments when i did. It is taking a lot longer than i figured.

I have been doing 1/2 swings for a week......i am told it may be another month before i can start on a strengthening regimen.

All they are trying to do now is keep it from tightening up any more.....

Hey...i did get to see a set of Wishon Sterlings...Look nice....have now talked to 2 guys who have gone through the fitting and hit them...

they both purchased a set....man...i was hoping to be playing a set this summer.Now,i am just hoping to be playing at all !

But ...I still like the looks of the 575's forged better....and I KNOW how i was hitting those !!!

like you guys,i hope sixty is ok.

 

Would you go 8 iron or 7 iron length? For me I would think shorter is better

and go 8 iron....and I think that is what Tom recommends. 5 or 6 iron length

never made sense to me since I see only a benefit impacting a couple clubs

and maybe not any if you use any hybrids.

 

set of 6 thru 9 plus PW GW SW 125 per club....plus the fitting is included with the price....and he has been rated as one of the best...guy just finished

his fitting on friday when i was there....he actually drove up from Mississippi so Jim could do his fitting. He seems to favor the 7 iron length,but i would

guess the fitting would carry the ball....i am like you..i think i would prefer the 8I length. My problem Rad,i am dialed in with my wedges...from 65 to 115.i

could not hope to be any better with them...i really am not sold on the longer length wedge,but that could be because i am so at ease and i will normally

be within 5 feet distance wise,and dispersion is ....well......lets say i am satisfied with it ! I can go flag hunting from 115 in,and i am in no hurry to change anything there ! I still use the old Cleveland Black Pearl 50.......54.......58........all with 6* of bounce....lol had to throw the bounce in there ......

 

I think the key is to shorten the mid and longer irons to make them more

manageable and easier to hit. I agree with you that lengthening the 9 iron

and wedges doesn't really make sense.

 

I would have 6-8 at 8 iron length and leave the short irons and wedges

as is......or just buy 6-8 irons only in Sterling and use another 9 iron and

wedges. Geez, now I'm thinking why bother at all if only going to 6 iron, lol.

[PeanutsDaddy]

Could you imagine how drunk we'd get if we took a drink every time Ninja said the words 'physics' and/or 'science'?

 

Psychology is a science as well. It's easy to lose sight of that fact.

[DeNinny]

Could you imagine how drunk we'd get if we took a drink every time Ninja said the words 'physics' and/or 'science'?

 

Psychology is a science as well. It's easy to lose sight of that fact.

 

When I say science it is the same as the physics and the engineering ones. It's the sciences that have math and formulas.

 

Don't blame me on saying it so much. You all were the ones (not you) that have been asking and/or challenging. I'm just responding.

 

You would be lit up for sure!

 

And psychology as a science a given to me.

[PeanutsDaddy]

It's been a really tough few work weeks. I might try to make it through the 'bounce chronicles' with a bottle of bourbon. I may have a half page in me.

[thug the bunny]

Thanks to all who wished me happy b-day and for the upbeat takes on turning 60. My older sister was especially inspiring. She said "It's all downhill from here," which was great news since coasting downhill is a lot easier than an uphill slog

 

skull

 

True. Me too, I'm coasting my way into the ground. Work maybe another 5 yrs, start my modest pension, get a job I really like, and simplify. I also got a ton of expensive crap I accumulated over the years that could provide a decent income stream if I started unloading it.

[scotee]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

I have to agree with MJ. Sorry Ninge but I don't quite get the bounce argument yet either. When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf. On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all. I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don't have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works.

 

I'm not going to repeat everything I've already stated to Matt J. If you are going to argue with me, all I ask is that you please read everything I've stated. I mention this because. All you have done is mention a technique above and you have NOT contrasted the same technique based on applying it the same way with both a high and low bounce club. And what I'm saying is if you perform those very same techniques using a high and low bounce club, you will find ALL the same shots easier with the low bounce club. Let's just look at a few of your specific points...

 

"When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf."

 

If you expose a blunted leading edge the same exact way with shaft lean as mentioned above, then you will come to the same dead stop and you may even do it sooner. Again, all my points are based on ALL things equal. This argument you used is NOT a comparison of the two different bounce clubheads given the same type of shot.

 

"On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. "

 

Again, you can do this technique with both high and low bounce clubs and the lower bounce club is ultimately thinner and will actually glide under the ball with LESS drag force than the higher bounce one. Again, it appears to me that you applied one technique that is different than shaft lean and then you are claiming it is the bounce that helped you. Sorry, it is simply the technique. And again, assuming the SAME technique, the lower bounce club is still (theoretically and 100% backed by the science) EASIER by comparison.

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

 

"I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don't have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. "

 

Again, you are talking technique here and not the relative differences that the two different bounces will make whilst using the same technique. I challenge you to really try this exercise with the SAME technique but with different bounce clubs (same loft and everything else). I will tell you right now that the lower bounce club will be EASIER to slide under those dimes than the high bounce one, again using the same technique. Remember too, a low bounce club still has a rounded bottom and it still has a rounded leading edge. It's just that both of these are LESS than the high bounce club. But that low bounce rounded bottom will still help you based on what you described. With the lower bounce club you won't need to push as much turf downward to get under the dime. But also you need to have an open mind when you try the test. If you have a bias in your mind, then that will play into your results.

 

"I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works."

 

And I'm just trying to expand your understanding. And I really do understand your perspective. I had it too until I really evaluated the science without the marketing bias of it. Everything I stated is supported by the laws of physics. If it is not, then I am all ears where I violated a law or just missed something. But I'm willing to bet I'm 100% right and take up the discussion with any PhD physicist.

 

 

 

OK I see we are not talking about the same thing i.e. different technique vs. the merits of different bounce angles. In your reply to Matt you said you were assuming ideal ball first contact. In my "using the bounce" technique (and in sand) I am purposely hitting the big ball before the little ball. I see that not as introducing error but an adjustment in technique.

 

One more example from my no math, no science, nonsense point of view :) I look at bounce like snow skis. Skis are curved up at the tips to keep them moving up over the snow and not digging into or under the snow. I see it the same for bounce. The more bounce the higher the leading edge sits above the ground. And yes I agree that a high bounce wedge from a hard tight lie makes it more likely to blade the shot. Bounce you say slows down the club. I can see that. But doesn't it also affect the vertical direction of the club i.e. more bounce means more upward movement through the sand or snow because of the steeper ramp?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Signed and numbered copies of my artwork can be found at scotee.com. Paypal accepted

 

If ignorance is bliss, I am a very happy man.

 

scoteef, you cannot view the club like those skis that freely glide over the top of the snow. The ground is very soft compared to a hard metal clubhead traveling at up to 100 mph. And BOTH clubheads will start pushing the substrate out of the way instead of the head (and shaft and hands and arms) rerouting. The lower bounce club does this easier. I am repeating myself now so to reiterate my rebuttal to this, I have cut/paste the specific part which is also in what you quoted by me...

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

...

 

I don't know how many different ways that I can explain the same thing, so there it is again.

 

Also, here is some additional food for thought:

 

- Do you really think, over the distance that a high bounce club supposedly "saves" a fat shot, that SOFT ground actually is firm enough to reroute the entire mass of cluhead, shaft, hands, and arms of the golfer? When the clubhead is moving at up to 100mph?

 

- As I challenged Conrad earlier, compare how much you can deflect the turf and dirt without taking a divot to simulate that "non digging" miss. And then compare this to how different the actual bounces on two clubs are. The bounce difference is VERY small. The ground always gives way to the clubhead over the distances of concern. And yes I get that eventually the ground will compact and either stop or reroute all the swing mass, but again this is outside the area of concern.

 

- Consider the digging side now. The bottom of the low bounce club is still curved. It is not going to dig straight down and again the ground will give way to it. The low bounce club does the same thing as the high bounce one. Both just follow the natural clubhead path and when they hit the ground they move it out of the way, losing velocity as this happens. But the low bounce club loses LESS velocity. You will at least hit a fat shot with this club with just slightly more velocity and the result won't be as bad as a high bounce club.

 

Thank you for your time and effort to reeducate me. Sometimes bliss is all I crave.

 

Oh, and I can hardly get my driver to 100mph these days. The pitches around the green I'm talking about are moving much slower but are gliding along much more parallel to the ground than the full wedge shots I hit-kind of like skis :)

[DeNinny]

I have to agree with MJ. Sorry Ninge but I don't quite get the bounce argument yet either. When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf. On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all. I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don't have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works.

 

I'm not going to repeat everything I've already stated to Matt J. If you are going to argue with me, all I ask is that you please read everything I've stated. I mention this because. All you have done is mention a technique above and you have NOT contrasted the same technique based on applying it the same way with both a high and low bounce club. And what I'm saying is if you perform those very same techniques using a high and low bounce club, you will find ALL the same shots easier with the low bounce club. Let's just look at a few of your specific points...

 

"When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf."

 

If you expose a blunted leading edge the same exact way with shaft lean as mentioned above, then you will come to the same dead stop and you may even do it sooner. Again, all my points are based on ALL things equal. This argument you used is NOT a comparison of the two different bounce clubheads given the same type of shot.

 

"On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. "

 

Again, you can do this technique with both high and low bounce clubs and the lower bounce club is ultimately thinner and will actually glide under the ball with LESS drag force than the higher bounce one. Again, it appears to me that you applied one technique that is different than shaft lean and then you are claiming it is the bounce that helped you. Sorry, it is simply the technique. And again, assuming the SAME technique, the lower bounce club is still (theoretically and 100% backed by the science) EASIER by comparison.

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

 

"I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don't have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. "

 

Again, you are talking technique here and not the relative differences that the two different bounces will make whilst using the same technique. I challenge you to really try this exercise with the SAME technique but with different bounce clubs (same loft and everything else). I will tell you right now that the lower bounce club will be EASIER to slide under those dimes than the high bounce one, again using the same technique. Remember too, a low bounce club still has a rounded bottom and it still has a rounded leading edge. It's just that both of these are LESS than the high bounce club. But that low bounce rounded bottom will still help you based on what you described. With the lower bounce club you won't need to push as much turf downward to get under the dime. But also you need to have an open mind when you try the test. If you have a bias in your mind, then that will play into your results.

 

"I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works."

 

And I'm just trying to expand your understanding. And I really do understand your perspective. I had it too until I really evaluated the science without the marketing bias of it. Everything I stated is supported by the laws of physics. If it is not, then I am all ears where I violated a law or just missed something. But I'm willing to bet I'm 100% right and take up the discussion with any PhD physicist.

 

 

 

OK I see we are not talking about the same thing i.e. different technique vs. the merits of different bounce angles. In your reply to Matt you said you were assuming ideal ball first contact. In my "using the bounce" technique (and in sand) I am purposely hitting the big ball before the little ball. I see that not as introducing error but an adjustment in technique.

 

One more example from my no math, no science, nonsense point of view :) I look at bounce like snow skis. Skis are curved up at the tips to keep them moving up over the snow and not digging into or under the snow. I see it the same for bounce. The more bounce the higher the leading edge sits above the ground. And yes I agree that a high bounce wedge from a hard tight lie makes it more likely to blade the shot. Bounce you say slows down the club. I can see that. But doesn't it also affect the vertical direction of the club i.e. more bounce means more upward movement through the sand or snow because of the steeper ramp?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Signed and numbered copies of my artwork can be found at scotee.com. Paypal accepted

 

If ignorance is bliss, I am a very happy man.

 

scoteef, you cannot view the club like those skis that freely glide over the top of the snow. The ground is very soft compared to a hard metal clubhead traveling at up to 100 mph. And BOTH clubheads will start pushing the substrate out of the way instead of the head (and shaft and hands and arms) rerouting. The lower bounce club does this easier. I am repeating myself now so to reiterate my rebuttal to this, I have cut/paste the specific part which is also in what you quoted by me...

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

...

 

I don't know how many different ways that I can explain the same thing, so there it is again.

 

Also, here is some additional food for thought:

 

- Do you really think, over the distance that a high bounce club supposedly "saves" a fat shot, that SOFT ground actually is firm enough to reroute the entire mass of cluhead, shaft, hands, and arms of the golfer? When the clubhead is moving at up to 100mph?

 

- As I challenged Conrad earlier, compare how much you can deflect the turf and dirt without taking a divot to simulate that "non digging" miss. And then compare this to how different the actual bounces on two clubs are. The bounce difference is VERY small. The ground always gives way to the clubhead over the distances of concern. And yes I get that eventually the ground will compact and either stop or reroute all the swing mass, but again this is outside the area of concern.

 

- Consider the digging side now. The bottom of the low bounce club is still curved. It is not going to dig straight down and again the ground will give way to it. The low bounce club does the same thing as the high bounce one. Both just follow the natural clubhead path and when they hit the ground they move it out of the way, losing velocity as this happens. But the low bounce club loses LESS velocity. You will at least hit a fat shot with this club with just slightly more velocity and the result won't be as bad as a high bounce club.

 

Thank you for your time and effort to reeducate me. Sometimes bliss is all I crave.

 

Oh, and I can hardly get my driver to 100mph these days. The pitches around the green I'm talking about are moving much slower but are gliding along much more parallel to the ground than the full wedge shots I hit-kind of like skis :)

 

Understood on the lower velocity but all my points still stand. I said UP TO 100 mph just to cover all possible bases for nitpicky arguments.

 

You can still do that "non dig" test I mentioned with a pitch and you will still deflect more turf than the difference in the volume of low and high bounce clubs

 

And if you are taking divots with your pitches (pretty much everyone does) then MOST DEFINITELY they are NOT like skis. Sorry, you may have to reduce your skis argument to even smaller velocities to have an applicable analogy. As long as you can take a divot with a club, regardless of the shot velocity or quality, then there is no technical benefit supported by the physics of a high bounce club.

 

So to be clear, you do take divots with those pitches with high bounce clubs at times, correct?

 

(FWIW I've already been through all the shots re: bounce and I know all the "theories" about it. Faux science or not.)

[Conrad1953]

Ninjaw!

 

A flop shot from a tight lie is a tough shot we know. If you try to "fit" the leading

edge in there you have to be very precise as there is little margin for error.

 

Some will hit that shot with a wedge with a little more bounce, which keeps the

leading edge a little more up off the ground at address.

 

As you come into the ball, the "bounce" will hit the ground first and will dig in

a little but not much.....the main thing is the leading edge, while getting a little

closer to the ground will still be above ground and cannot dig into it because

the bounce is preventing it.

 

Thus you can hit the ground with the "bounce" while the leading edge stays above

ground and glides under the ball sufficiently to pop the ball up in the air.

 

At some point as you use less bounce and try that shot you'll reach a point where

there is not enough bounce to keep the leading edge above ground and the leading

edge will dig.

 

This will vary by player and angles of attack and the actual thickness of the turf in

a tight fairway lie.....and so players will generally have wedges with different bounces

to accommodate different shots and conditions.

 

Generally speaking, from these tight lies, you can try for the perfect shot or you can

use some bounce to enlarge your margin for error.

[DeNinny]

Ninjaw!

 

Master Conrapper, LOL keep swinging, my man. You brought up a good new scenario. Another one to refute! But I will confess it is a good point.

 

A flop shot from a tight lie is a tough shot we know. If you try to "fit" the leading

edge in there you have to be very precise as there is little margin for error.

 

And this point right there that you stated right up front is where I already covered the BEST theoretical benefit of the lower bounce clubhead. You are now arguing that a flop shot and a tight lie shot is best with a high bounce club? This has been covered by this diagram already...

 

 

 

Club B does not fit into the corner between the ball and tight lie ground as well as club A. I covered this point ad nauseam to Matt J, so I will just remind you that you cannot refute the fact that club B has LESS ROOM to move around in. If you move both clubs in the up and down direction the same amount, in BOTH cases, club B will reach the point of a bad shot earlier compared to club A. You have no refutation to this.

 

But now let's take it farther and modify the diagram a little. Just focus on club B now and let's call it, as-is, the LOW bounce club. And so now to make it a higher bounce wedge, imagine a spot just a little more to the right and on the sole that is lower than the boundary drawn, making it a higher bounce club. What this does, to be clear, is make the higher bounce club have a lower overall bottom, RELATIVE to the leading edge. But more importantly, now you have an image of two clubs with ROUNDED bottoms. So now with this image of a high and low bounce club, hopefully my later points make more sense as to why it is still better to have low bounce.

 

Some will hit that shot with a wedge with a little more bounce, which keeps the

leading edge a little more up off the ground at address.

 

So again right here is another big flaw in the logic. And the diagram should help you with the visual and where I am coming from. Remember that the higher bounce club has an overall LOWER bottom of the sole, RELATIVE to the leading edge. So when you hit that point of just barely touching the ground just as the tip comes into impact, the low bounce club is NOT touching the ground!!! The lower bounce club (with the higher bottom!) has a little more room to maneuver BEFORE it actually hits the ground. Again, all things equal in this scenario of both clubs dropping the same distance, the high bounce club hits the ground when the low bounce club DOESN'T. The leading edge is up off the ground more is where the logic is flawed. All things equal, the leading edge is in the same spot and the high bounce club hit the ground when the low bounce club didn't. Again, my point to Matt J earlier already covered this, but now I hope you really "see" it all.

 

As you come into the ball, the "bounce" will hit the ground first and will dig in

a little but not much.....the main thing is the leading edge, while getting a little

closer to the ground will still be above ground and cannot dig into it because

the bounce is preventing it.

 

I totally get this point, but again you are not evaluating the two clubs on the same relative basis. I have seen and know full well the definition of what higher bounce does and most definitely it puts a point behind the leading edge and at the bottom of the sole a little lower than the low bounce club, and again all of this is relative to the leading edge of the club. This is exactly why you hit MORE fat shots, THEORETICALLY, with a higher bounce club. The club simply has a chance of hitting the ground first and...wait for it...ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL, which includes the position of the leading edge of the clubs.

 

Thus you can hit the ground with the "bounce" while the leading edge stays above

ground and glides under the ball sufficiently to pop the ball up in the air.

 

See all other posts.

 

At some point as you use less bounce and try that shot you'll reach a point where

there is not enough bounce to keep the leading edge above ground and the leading

edge will dig.

 

And since all things were equal, the higher bounce club will have already been hitting the ground BEFORE the point at which the lower bounce club just started to hit it. Once again, this is MORE margin for error with the low bounce club.

 

And if you still aren't convinced, another point is that the low bounce club still has a rounded leading edge and a rounded bottom. If the high bounce club isn't going to dig, neither is the low bounce one.

 

And furthermore, now you are getting the point at which the ground will easily give way to just the rounded bottom of both clubs. Both will simply push into the ground and cause the ground to indent. And impact will be over and done well before the bounce effects of either club come into play do cause it to deflect. Seriously, the ground does not have enough strength to reroute the clubhead and the mass of the swing.

 

Which brings up yet another point in that the ground is too soft for the clubhead. If you swing a club hard enough to take a divot when you WANT to, you are swinging the club hard enough to make the ground give way to ANY part of it based on ANY ground contact. Earlier you argued that a lighter and lower velocity glancing blow to the ground will bounce. I'm sorry but that is not what is going to happen and again this is with either club. That same swing had enough energy to take a divot, so it most definitely has enough energy to push the ground out of its way instead of "bouncing".

 

This will vary by player and angles of attack and the actual thickness of the turf in

a tight fairway lie.....and so players will generally have wedges with different bounces

to accommodate different shots and conditions.

 

Sorry, but when you fix all things equal like AoA and lies, there are ZERO theoretical reasons for higher bounce. I summarized it all before, but once again it simply increases the chance of ground INTERFERENCE (not help) before clean ball contact AND it SLOWS the clubhead down MORE relative to the low bounce club.

 

Generally speaking, from these tight lies, you can try for the perfect shot or you can

use some bounce to enlarge your margin for error.

 

If you still think this is true based on my points above, see all my OTHER posts.

[Matt J]

Had a bad day with driver today which is pretty rare. Took 4 holes to find a fairway and I lost a ball in the meantime. Iron play wasn't sharp, but I had some good looks. Totals came in at 6 fairways, 12 girs, and 31 putts. Took home one skin with a birdie on a par 5, but it was only worth 6 bucks, haha.

 

I think I need to slow my transition down because I'm pulling the ball again. I've got a social round for work tomorrow, so I'll have a chance to beat it around a little and worry less about score. I also get a chance to hit some balls beforehand so maybe I can get it straightened out.

 

I'm moving clubs across town at the end of the month. Finalized that decision today, so I'll be enjoying my last "regular" rounds at my home track. Hope everyone in Confessions land is doing well!

 

True Confession: I've felt like I knew exactly what I needed to do to improve up until recently. I've been stuck in this high 70's and low 80's plateau for the last six months and feel like my whole game is at about that level. Nothing exceptional or horrendous at the moment. Perhaps mixing it up on a new course next month will show me some more obvious weaknesses to work on.

[thug the bunny]

Me too Matt. Pulling is always a sign of off-tempo quickness for me..

[billh17]

just out of curiosity....what would be considered high bounce...and then what is low bounce.....i have the same wedges i have had for a while...the set was a gift. All at 6*

i know what i know about bounce from what you guys have been discussing..I have never purchased a club based on bounce...i play with a couple guys

..one has all 12* on his wedges....the other has 4 wedges...two of them at 14* the other two at 10*....always wondered why.....

[DeNinny]

I consider single digit bounce low and medium in the 10-12 range.

 

Edit: What manufacturers define it as may be different and I doubt there is a standard from one to another.

[Pigems]

I Jigged up a quick stand this afternoon instead of heading to the range lol, took less than an hour and used some old wood Dad had laying around his shed. Gonna fill the bottom with some sort of weight(rocks maybe?). We will see how she holds up, I'm still gonna pile a bunch more screws into it too, but I ran out for today lol.