A golf architecture related question

[catshannon]

Apologies if this is not the right place for this question.

 

So this is a bit of a long question so bear with me.

 

Over the past few years I have realized that I really like one particular type of course design and I wanted to see if there is a particular name for this type of course design elements.

 

I first time I noticed it while watching the 2017 Northern trust which was held at Glen Oaks Club in Old Westbury, N.Y. Two things stood out - the first was the bright white fairway bunkers, which seem to be raised at the far end (so away from the golfer in the direction of play). The second is that many green complexes are raised with shaved grass banks on the sides, and these banks just seamlessly continue to become the teeing ground for the next hole. I guess similar to 11th green and 12th tee at Augusta. Some pictures I found online (https://thegolfnewsnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/glen-oaks-red-no-5.jpg, https://theislandnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Northern-Trust-tourney.jpg)

 

I noticed this the second time when I played Streamsong last year. Specifically on the blue course, the 5th tee is close to the 4th green and it flows so nicely. Similarly as you look to the 5th green, you will see the 6th tee next to it. It is hard to find pictures online that convey this.

 

Then a few days ago I was looking at pictures of the Tradition golf club and seeing the tour of the Par 3 course (https://www.traditiongc.com/golf/9-hole-course) and wow, it was exactly what I love. It has the bright white bunkers and also the shaved grass banks that lead to the next tee. The regular course (https://www.traditiongc.com/golf/18-hole-course) has the bunkers and bit of the mounds around the greens, but the next tees seem to be far away to it doesn’t have that cool effect I like, where you just walk to the next tee.

 

Any idea what this architecture feature is called. Is it just an homage/copy of Alistar Mackenzie? Does anyone know other courses like this, specifically in California?

 

Thanks

[davep043]

About the green-to-tee transition, its fairly common on the Donald Ross courses I've played, with maybe the best example being Mid Pines in NC. Pinehurst #2 is similar, although the Tournament tees have been moved significantly from the original design to lengthen the course I think it may have been relatively common in the days before golf courses became selling points for housing developments, and before buggies became so common. You can also see the same thing when you look at many old courses in Ireland and Scotland. Streamsong was apparently developed with an eye to encouraging walking, so the green to tee distances would logically be kept short, something of a throwback.

[Luke.Sutton]

Dave nailed it. Parkland courses built before the invention of the golf cart. So walkable parklands... I’d bet you’d like Donald Ross courses

[davep043]

Dave nailed it. Parkland courses built before the invention of the golf cart. So walkable parklands... I'd bet you'd like Donald Ross courses

When I think of it, the same thing is common on old links courses. At the Old Course, I don't think any tee is more than 10 or 15 yards from the preceding green. It goes back to the very origin of the games. The first Rules had you tee up within a clublength or two (I forget which) of the actual hole you just finished putting to.

[catshannon]

Thanks Dave and Luke. Interesting. I will look at some Donald Ross courses - I know he is famous for the raised/domed greens which flow nicely to the next tee when it is walkable. I didn't notice this at the Old Course, when I played it, since the greens weren't raised. But, I played Dornoch (which has the domed greens) and was the inspiration for Ross, and I did like that course a lot!

[Malvern]

OP, don't know about California (I've only played on that horrible kikuyu from Monteray down to Torrey) but given your likes, the Melbourne sand belt would be your spot, firm, fast, great bunkering, short walks from green to tee, wide fairways,plenty of MacKenzie influence.

[TexasTurf]

I agree with the guy above regarding the greens complexes and close mowing. Sand belt for sure, although I've never been there. Fazio bunkers in the U.S. are as you describe, and raised greens, but not greens mowed close to the bunkers and not greens complexes leading to the next tee. He likes each hole to be separated and in it's own environment. Most Ross courses in the U.S. are very different from their original designs and many bunkers near the greens have been removed.

 

The pure white sand is more of a budget issue.

[catshannon]

OP, don't know about California (I've only played on that horrible kikuyu from Monteray down to Torrey) but given your likes, the Melbourne sand belt would be your spot, firm, fast, great bunkering, short walks from green to tee, wide fairways,plenty of MacKenzie influence.

 

You are right. The Sandbelt courses do look a lot like what I like. I guess I need to take a trip out to Australia soon :-)

[James the Hogan Fan]

Alameda South was just redesigned in the sand belt style, but I haven’t played it yet. I think they did use the brilliant white sand in the bunkers though.

 

If you can get on Clairemont CC in Oakland has a few instances of exactly what you’re looking for, I apologize for referencing a private club. In the same vein a google search of the SF golf club shows they have some of that too.

 

Gearhart golf links in Gearhart Oregon... kind of in some places.

 

Palo Alto Baylands Golf has no rough, so everything is a shaved area. Unfortunately the tees can be quite far from the greens in most cases. I think your effect is really hard to get on courses with cart paths as the cart path often bisects the green/tee arrangement.

 

Sorry I can’t be of more help!

[Malvern]

OP, don't know about California (I've only played on that horrible kikuyu from Monteray down to Torrey) but given your likes, the Melbourne sand belt would be your spot, firm, fast, great bunkering, short walks from green to tee, wide fairways,plenty of MacKenzie influence.

 

You are right. The Sandbelt courses do look a lot like what I like. I guess I need to take a trip out to Australia soon :-)

 

Give it a miss for a week or two, temps are 100 +, awful.

 

I forgot to mention one of my favourite places to play golf, California Golf Club in San Fran, brilliant renovation by Kyle Phillips...…..love that place.

 

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/california-golf-club-of-san-franciso/california-golf-club-of-san-franciso-pg-ii/

[catshannon]

Alameda South was just redesigned in the sand belt style, but I haven't played it yet. I think they did use the brilliant white sand in the bunkers though.

 

If you can get on Clairemont CC in Oakland has a few instances of exactly what you're looking for, I apologize for referencing a private club. In the same vein a google search of the SF golf club shows they have some of that too.

 

Gearhart golf links in Gearhart Oregon... kind of in some places.

 

Palo Alto Baylands Golf has no rough, so everything is a shaved area. Unfortunately the tees can be quite far from the greens in most cases. I think your effect is really hard to get on courses with cart paths as the cart path often bisects the green/tee arrangement.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help!

 

Thanks, James. I have played Alameda South after the redesign and while it is a nice course, it doesn't have the same feeling. You are right about the Clarement CC. I was invited to play last year and a few of the holes on the front 9 definitely have that feeling.

[driveandputtmachine]

I grew up on a Donald Ross course(Raleigh CC) and you are describing many of his characteristics as folks have pointed out. I will also say however his bunkers are not as you describe. Or at least most of the courses of his I have played aren't, many of his bunkers were sand in the bottom and mostly flat, and there is grass running up them. Raleigh is this way, and why we had a pile of the hovering grass mowers to cut that grass and the sides of the slopes down to the sand.

[davep043]

I grew up on a Donald Ross course(Raleigh CC) and you are describing many of his characteristics as folks have pointed out. I will also say however his bunkers are not as you describe. Or at least most of the courses of his I have played aren't, many of his bunkers were sand in the bottom and mostly flat, and there is grass running up them. Raleigh is this way, and why we had a pile of the hovering grass mowers to cut that grass and the sides of the slopes down to the sand.

There's an interesting article on Ross and his "style" here:

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/donald-ross

In particular regarding bunkers:

Although grass-faced, flat sand lines have been the dominant style at Pinehurst for more than fifty years, they do not represent the typical Donald Ross bunker. Upon Ross’ final (and most extensive) renovation of the greens complexes of Pinehurst #2 in 1935, the sand bunkers were dramatic flashed-sand pits which were clearly visible from the shot to be played and more resembled random jigsaw-puzzle pieces than the kidney shapes and rectangles that are prevalent today.

That article suggests that the faces were changed to grass primarily to decrease the level of maintenance required to keep sand on the sloping face.