I need a ruling

[Swingtheclub]

Well my problem was and is I always thought that if you hit a second ball and did not declare it a provisional then that ball was in play.

 

I understand the rule as it is I just think its stupid.

 

Note I think a lot of the rules of golf make little sense.

[akanacl]

Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate". :cheesy:

wasnt that line stolen from Cool Hand Luke?

 

i digress...lol :good:

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate". :good:

 

Reminded me more of an Abbott and Costello routine.

 

Costello: Well then who's in the hole?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: I mean the fellow's name.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy with the ball in the hole.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy that just scored an eagle.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy in the hole in two...

Abbott: Who is in the hole!

Costello: I'm asking you who's in the hole.

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's who?

Abbott: Yes. PAUSE

 

[…]

 

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guys name that just got an eagle.

Abbott: No. What is out of bounds.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's out of bounds.

Abbott: Who's in the hole.

Costello: One ball at a time!

Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.

Costello: I'm not changing nobody!

Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.

Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy in the hole with an eagle?

Abbott: That's right.

 

[...]

[jimb]

I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.

[Swingtheclub]

Parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that famous line by the Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit "What we have here is a basic failure to communicate". :good:

 

Reminded me more of an Abbott and Costello routine.

 

Costello: Well then who's in the hole?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: I mean the fellow's name.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy with the ball in the hole.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy that just scored an eagle.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy in the hole in two...

Abbott: Who is in the hole!

Costello: I'm asking you who's in the hole.

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's who?

Abbott: Yes. PAUSE

 

[…]

 

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guys name that just got an eagle.

Abbott: No. What is out of bounds.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's out of bounds.

Abbott: Who's in the hole.

Costello: One ball at a time!

Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.

Costello: I'm not changing nobody!

Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.

Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy in the hole with an eagle?

Abbott: That's right.

 

[...]

 

 

 

The USGA rule book reminds me of Abbott and Costello or for the kids on the forum Dumb and Dummer

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

The USGA rule book reminds me of Abbott and Costello . . .

 

Abbott and Costello were funny and interesting.

 

The USGA rule book reads like the tax code. :good:

[TexasAg]

I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.

 

:good: WRONG.

 

From decisions on the rules of golf:

 

1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play

 

 

Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.

 

1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball

 

 

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).

 

1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball

 

 

Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?

 

A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.

[atlanta golfer]

This is getting a little silly, but jimb, you are mistaken. I don't know how we can say this any more clearly. Once the ball is in the hole, that is it, the score is two and the player is done. Nothing else matters in terms of his score on that hole.

 

We can talk all kinds of situations relating to provisionals and practice on the course, etc. The practice questions, depending on the situation, might result in some additional penalty strokes which would be added to his score.

 

But the main point here that does not change is, when the ball is in the hole, the hole is finished. No matter what.

 

If you don't believe this, you can go to the USGA website and read not just the rules but the Q and A and the Decisions. It is pretty cut and dry.

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

. . . I don't know . . .

 

He's on third.

[atlanta golfer]

How many times do I have to tell you, Who's on third!

[jimb]

I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.

 

:good: WRONG.

 

From decisions on the rules of golf:

 

1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play

 

 

Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.

 

1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball

 

 

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player’s score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).

 

1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball

 

 

Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?

 

A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.

 

 

Well, I have been wrong before. What makes me feel good is that I don't do this for a living. I constantly see pro's on TV asking for ruling. But if that is from the decisions on the rules of golf, then yep I am wrong.

 

I was reading in Golf or Golf Digest one of those golf rule quizzes, and a case just like this came up and the answer was as I described. Prior to that reading I would have thought that the ball in the hole ended the hole. Looks like the ruling guy is all wet.

 

The decision on the rules do get quite goofy. We had a situation in a local tournament where a guy hits his tee shot above the hole on a steeply sloped par 3. His ball is at rest. He marks it. When it is his turn he replaces the ball and lifts his mark. He starts to move to look at the line and the ball moves by itself and goes in the hole. The decision was a hole in one.

 

If you asked 10 average guys about that you would get different 2 or 3 different opinions on how to procedure. Someone on this question referred to Abbott and Costello. Not too far off.

[Swingtheclub]

Check this out.

 

Your ball lands in the back of a greenside bunker you carry a rake in with you. You hit your ball to the front of the bunker then rake the area you just hit from. Then you go to hit your other bunker shot. The ball hits the lip and rolls back to where you hit your last bunker shot from.

 

Have you broken a rule?

 

According to the ruling as it was explained to me yes , you would be penalized for improving your lie.

[mat562]

As daft as it may seem, yes you have....

[atlanta golfer]

I hate to say it but I've taken two shots to get out of bunkers many a time. However, it never occurred to me to rake one area of the bunker before moving to the next. Actually, I'm not even sure it's good practice to bring the rake in with you. Isn't this normally left outside the bunker until you are done? At least, that is my usual practice.

[hbear]

I thought if you rake the bunker while your ball is still in it, it would be considered testing the ground condition no?

 

I know you CAN take a rake in with you, and drop it off to the side, but I wouldn't in tournament to alleviate any potential problems.

[mihi4]

I thought if you rake the bunker while your ball is still in it, it would be considered testing the ground condition no?

No, check out rule 13-4:

Exceptions:
1.  Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard
2.  After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

 

Also, taking a rake with you into the bunker is perfectly legal:

Q. May a player place an umbrella or a rake in a bunker before playing a stroke from the bunker?

A. Placing an umbrella or rake in a hazard is equivalent to placing clubs in the hazard — see Exception 1 to Rule 13-4. There is no penalty, providing nothing is done which may constitute testing the soil or improving the lie of the ball. But see Decision 13-4/22.

 

greetings

michi

[jcjr34]

Check this out.

 

Your ball lands in the back of a greenside bunker you carry a rake in with you. You hit your ball to the front of the bunker then rake the area you just hit from. Then you go to hit your other bunker shot. The ball hits the lip and rolls back to where you hit your last bunker shot from.

 

Have you broken a rule?

 

According to the ruling as it was explained to me yes , you would be penalized for improving your lie.

 

Interesting.. Why would that be a penalty for improving our lie?

[stage1350]

See the post above:

 

No, check out rule 13-4:

Exceptions:

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard

2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

[atlanta golfer]

Rules aside, to me the bigger question on bringing rakes into the bunker, raking the bunker from the first shot before playing a second shot still in the same bunker .................the bigger question is, why would you want to?

[hbear]

Yes the "assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole" part of the rule is the grey area...as when one is raking/smoothing the bunker, they can be construed as to getting a read on the sand.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't do it in competition just to aviod the potential problems.

[Swingtheclub]

I always carry a rake in the bunker with me, note that if I hit the ball it hits the lip of the bunker and comes back and hits the rake . I may be guilty of hitting my own equipment. Theres one to look up.

 

But I do it to speed up play. To answer your question.

[atlanta golfer]

What do you do with your wedge while you are raking? Don't you have to walk to the edge of the bunker anyway in order to lay the wedge on the grass? Raking a bunker properly for the players behind you means both hands on the rake and putting a bit of shoulder into pushing and pulling it properly. At least that's what they showed me decades ago when I was a caddie.

 

Just not seeing how bringing the rake in with you saves any time. Note, I normally do bring the rake to the edge of the grass behind me and lay it down there with my putter. You then hit the shot, walk back a few steps to the rake, lay your wedge down and grab the rake, and get it done. Then on to the green. No risk of penalty strokes and no slowing down play.

[mihi4]

Yes the "assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole" part of the rule is the grey area...as when one is raking/smoothing the bunker, they can be construed as to getting a read on the sand.

No, raking the bunker is not "testing the conditions", since you already know the conditions after the first shot.

Like I said, I wouldn't do it in competition just to aviod the potential problems.

That's a good idea, see decision 13/4-36:

Q. A makes a stroke in a bunker but fails to extricate his ball from the bunker. He smoothes irregularities in the area where the stroke was made. The smoothing does not improve the new lie of the ball. However, B claims that the smoothing assisted A in his subsequent play of the hole because it constituted testing the consistency of the sand. Is B right?

A. No. Exception 2 to Rule 13-4 permits smoothing, provided that the lie of the ball is not improved and the player is not assisted in his subsequent play of the hole. The claim that A’s smoothing of the sand assisted him in his subsequent play of the hole would only be valid if, as a result of a subsequent stroke in the bunker, A’s ball came to rest in the smoothed area. (Revised)

So, if your second shot hits the bunker lip and bounces back in the smoothed area, you'll be penalized...

 

greetings

michi

[Rockfish]

I think that you circumstance needs more detail. Let's assume you were competing in a stroke play tournament. If you think your first ball was lost, then you would say, "I am going to hit a provisional". You then hit your second shot. If you hit a second shot with that provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole, then the provisional ball is in play, despite the fact that the first ball is in the hole. In your explanation you discovered the ball in the hole before hitting the provisional a second time. If 5 minutes has not elapsed while you were on the green, then the ball in the cup is in play.

 

:clapping: WRONG.

 

From decisions on the rules of golf:

 

1-1/2 Player Unaware He Has Holed Out Puts Another Ball into Play

 

 

Q. A player, unable to find his ball, puts another ball into play. He then discovers that his original ball is in the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. The score with the original ball counts. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed that ball.

 

1-1/3 Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole After Searching Five Minutes and Then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball

 

 

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player's score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).

 

1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball

 

 

Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?

 

A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for subsequently playing a wrong ball.

 

 

We had a situation in a local tournament where a guy hits his tee shot above the hole on a steeply sloped par 3. His ball is at rest. He marks it. When it is his turn he replaces the ball and lifts his mark. He starts to move to look at the line and the ball moves by itself and goes in the hole. The decision was a hole in one.

 

If you asked 10 average guys about that you would get different 2 or 3 different opinions on how to procedure. Someone on this question referred to Abbott and Costello. Not too far off.

 

 

Now common sense would tell you (AND the Committee) that their ruling was WRONG, no ?!?!?! :crazy:

 

I can't find it at the moment (in the Decisions) but I am pretty sure that when that situation arises the player must find the nearest spot on the green, no closer to the hole, place the ball there and putt from there.

[TexasAg]

I don't think it would be a hole in one. Since decisions are supposed to be made in equity, it seems to me that it should be a 2.

 

18-1 By Outside Agency

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

(Player’s ball at rest moved by another ball — see Rule 18-5.)

 

16-2 Ball Overhanging Hole

When any part of the ball overhangs the lip of the hole, the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. If by then the ball has not fallen into the hole, it is deemed to be at rest. If the ball subsequently falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke, and he must add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole; otherwise, there is no penalty under this Rule.

[hbear]

It would be a one.

 

There is no outside agency involved.

 

No different if the ball ended up further from the hole....just part of the game.

 

 

Refer to Rule 20-3d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i) except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard; (ii) in a hazard, it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole.

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

 

In the case above...where the ball lies is now the cup...can't be played because it's in the cup and the ball is deemed holed....

On the 1st stroke!

 

Common sense and the rules of golf don't always go hand in hand.

[hbear]

Yes the "assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole" part of the rule is the grey area...as when one is raking/smoothing the bunker, they can be construed as to getting a read on the sand.

No, raking the bunker is not "testing the conditions", since you already know the conditions after the first shot.

Like I said, I wouldn't do it in competition just to aviod the potential problems.

That's a good idea, see decision 13/4-36:

Q. A makes a stroke in a bunker but fails to extricate his ball from the bunker. He smoothes irregularities in the area where the stroke was made. The smoothing does not improve the new lie of the ball. However, B claims that the smoothing assisted A in his subsequent play of the hole because it constituted testing the consistency of the sand. Is B right?

A. No. Exception 2 to Rule 13-4 permits smoothing, provided that the lie of the ball is not improved and the player is not assisted in his subsequent play of the hole. The claim that A’s smoothing of the sand assisted him in his subsequent play of the hole would only be valid if, as a result of a subsequent stroke in the bunker, A’s ball came to rest in the smoothed area. (Revised)

So, if your second shot hits the bunker lip and bounces back in the smoothed area, you'll be penalized...

 

greetings

michi

 

 

Good to know.

 

Thanks!

[TexasAg]

It would be a one.

 

There is no outside agency involved.

 

No different if the ball ended up further from the hole....just part of the game.

 

 

Refer to Rule 20-3d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i) except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard; (ii) in a hazard, it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole.

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

 

Here's the decision:

 

Q. A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?

 

A. The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.

[Rockfish]

"His ball is at rest. He marks it. When it is his turn he replaces the ball and lifts his mark. He starts to move to look at the line and the ball moves by itself and goes in the hole. The decision was a hole in one."

 

I would submit the description was not quite clear enough as to whether the ball, once replaced and the bal mark lifted, was actually at rest or not.

 

If at rest then by rule it WAS a 1. If not, a place must be found to replace it.