Stand-alone putters legal?

[lanzador49]

I played with a guy who would stand on the green behind his ball and line up the putter to his ball while he was behind it...he would then stand up to the grip with the putter already aligned, address the ball, and putt. I understood that to be utilizing the club as an alignment aid invoking a violation because he was aligning the putt using the club without addressing the ball.

 

Now I see that there are putters that stand up by themselves for expressly that purpose: standing behind the putter to line it up without addressing the ball.

 

The putters are advertised as legal. Is it permissible to line up a putt like that?

 

Any comments or insights appreciated.

 

 

[sui generis]

Is it permissible to line up a putt like that?

 

Yes. (A no frills answer especially for Mr Bean.)

[antip]

Adding a frill: stand alone putters do not breach R10.2b, but not all stand alone putters are conforming clubs. Using a non-conforming club breaches R4.1a (DQ). So buyer beware.

[Mr. Bean]

This is one of those things the RBs did not foresee when they made the big revision. If we read the Rule in question literally a stand-alone putter may not be left standing alone. However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it. Not much logic in there is my humble opinion.

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

Source?

 

 

[lanzador49]

...just doesn't seem right - you can't use another object as an alignment aid, so why be able to use a putter when you're not addressing the ball to do it?

[sui generis]

> @lanzador49 said:

> ...just doesn't seem right - you can't use another object as an alignment aid, so why be able to use a putter when you're not addressing the ball to do it?

 

Here's the USGA Rules Help phone number: 908-326-1850.

Ask them,

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> Source?

>

>

 

I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

[Newby]

Thanks

[sui generis]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > Source?

> >

> >

>

> I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

 

We cannot prove a negative. The equipment rules are silent.

[Mr. Bean]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > > Source?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

>

> We cannot prove a negative. The equipment rules are silent.

 

So... a stand-alone putter is not an object, is that it?

 

On the putting green I am not allowed to place my regular putter on the ground to indicate my line of play, that is forbidden in Rule 10.2b(2), and it is forbidden because my regular putter is an object. Now, a stand-alone putter is also an object, so I wonder what has Equipment Rules got to do with this?

[sui generis]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > > > Source?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

> >

> > We cannot prove a negative. The equipment rules are silent.

>

> So... a stand-alone putter is not an object, is that it?

>

> On the putting green I am not allowed to place my regular putter on the ground to indicate my line of play, that is forbidden in Rule 10.2b(2), and it is forbidden because my regular putter is an object. Now, a stand-alone putter is also an object, so I wonder what has Equipment Rules got to do with this?

 

Mr Bean, I consider you a learned friend, but since 1 January 2019, you just seem to want to pick a fight with the Rules.

[LeoLeo99]

It's not the stand up putter itself that might be illegal, it's standing it up behind the ball and adjusting as needed from behind the ball before making a stroke that might be illegal. It's certainly not in the spirit of the new rule.

[Newby]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> It's not the stand up putter itself that might be illegal, it's standing it up behind the ball and adjusting as needed from behind the ball before making a stroke that might be illegal. It's certainly not in the spirit of the new rule.

This is the wording of the prohibition. Seems pretty clear.

_The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made._

[Mr. Bean]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > > > > Source?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

> > >

> > > We cannot prove a negative. The equipment rules are silent.

> >

> > So... a stand-alone putter is not an object, is that it?

> >

> > On the putting green I am not allowed to place my regular putter on the ground to indicate my line of play, that is forbidden in Rule 10.2b(2), and it is forbidden because my regular putter is an object. Now, a stand-alone putter is also an object, so I wonder what has Equipment Rules got to do with this?

>

> Mr Bean, I consider you a learned friend, but since 1 January 2019, you just seem to want to pick a fight with the Rules.

 

I must say I am now very confused. I thought you and antip have something solid behind you when both of you said that stand-alone putters are ok to use and there is no breach of R10.2b(2). Now when I ask you to share that information with the rest of us you refer to Equipment Rules that have IMO nothing to do with this issue.

 

So, I kindly, politely and honestly ask you to tell me and the rest of us if you have something solid on this issue because I sure would like to know. As I wrote before, the only thing I have is a confirmation from our NA and in particular from our Chief Referee who is in contact with the RBs. I have not seen any kind of written text on the issue that would have been verified by the RBs so I was hoping you or antip would have.

 

So, do you have any solid on this?

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> As I wrote before, the only thing I have is a confirmation from our NA and in particular from our Chief Referee who is in contact with the RBs.

>

How did your NA explain away 'set an object down' ?

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > It's not the stand up putter itself that might be illegal, it's standing it up behind the ball and adjusting as needed from behind the ball before making a stroke that might be illegal. It's certainly not in the spirit of the new rule.

> This is the wording of the prohibition. Seems pretty clear.

> _The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made._

 

Indeed. But on this very forum someone included a video clip of a pro competition (Champions Tour or similar) where a player used that kind of putter to indicate his line of play and there were no consequences. Since then it has been 'common knowledge' that it is allowed to use such a putter in such a manner but so far I have not seen anything from the RBs to confirm that.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > As I wrote before, the only thing I have is a confirmation from our NA and in particular from our Chief Referee who is in contact with the RBs.

> >

> How did your NA explain away 'set an object down' ?

>

 

No explanation. I asked if stand-alone putters are allowed to be used in the manner not allowed in R10.2b(2) and the answer was a simple 'yes'. That is all I have and I sure was hoping Sui and/or antip would have something solid as they both said that it is ok.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > As I wrote before, the only thing I have is a confirmation from our NA and in particular from our Chief Referee who is in contact with the RBs.

> > >

> > How did your NA explain away 'set an object down' ?

> >

>

> No explanation. I asked if stand-alone putters are allowed to be used in the manner not allowed in R10.2b(2) and the answer was a simple 'yes'. That is all I have and I sure was hoping Sui and/or antip would have something solid as they both said that it is ok.

 

We have discussed the USGA's comment that you may use a small ball marker with a line on it -- you may place it down to help your allignment without consequences. We have been told that a clarification on this topic is coming, and perhaps that clarification includes setting down such a putter as we are discussing.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > As I wrote before, the only thing I have is a confirmation from our NA and in particular from our Chief Referee who is in contact with the RBs.

> > > >

> > > How did your NA explain away 'set an object down' ?

> > >

> >

> > No explanation. I asked if stand-alone putters are allowed to be used in the manner not allowed in R10.2b(2) and the answer was a simple 'yes'. That is all I have and I sure was hoping Sui and/or antip would have something solid as they both said that it is ok.

>

> We have discussed the USGA's comment that you may use a small ball marker with a line on it -- you may place it down to help your allignment without consequences. We have been told that a clarification on this topic is coming, and perhaps that clarification includes setting down such a putter as we are discussing.

 

That would be just great! But... what do we do in the meantime..?

[rogolf]

Following the advice given by your NA would seem appropriate.

[lanzador49]

> @Newby said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > It's not the stand up putter itself that might be illegal, it's standing it up behind the ball and adjusting as needed from behind the ball before making a stroke that might be illegal. It's certainly not in the spirit of the new rule.

> This is the wording of the prohibition. Seems pretty clear.

> _The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made._

 

If that's the wording of the prohibition, it would seem to follow that using a putter as such a guide to show the line of play would be prohibited. The stand alone putter manufacturers say the practice conforms, however.

It just doesn't seem legal to be able to use a putter that way if you can't otherwise use a stick or a tee...now, of course, the guys I play with accuse me of using my cigar as an alignment aid (by putting it down next to my ball) all the time!

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > Source?

> >

> >

>

> I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

 

My 'source' is the rules questions posted in to the NCGA on their website. The questions are currently answered by Ryan Farb and my reference earlier drew directly on comments he made about what is approved. IMO, he is an extremely competent and professional State GA rules educator.

Edit: I'll also add, in my experience, if Ryan has doubts about what he is going to publish or if an official answer is unclear, he goes directly to USGA counterparts to check.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > > Source?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

>

> My 'source' is the rules questions posted in to the NCGA on their website. The questions are currently answered by Ryan Farb and my reference earlier drew directly on comments he made about what is approved. IMO, he is an extremely competent and professional State GA rules educator.

> Edit: I'll also add, in my experience, if Ryan has doubts about what he is going to publish or if an official answer is unclear, he goes directly to USGA counterparts to check.

 

Thank you very much. I will copy this and use it should there be any need (I have never seen a stand-alone putter live in my life and do not expect to see, either... but I do like the idea of having a solid background to whatever comment on the Rules I need to make).

[Newby]

See this at 52 seconds in

https://www.golfchannel.com/video/2019-diamond-resorts-putt-alignment-controversy

[Mr. Bean]

I am afraid I did not get anything out of that. Partly because they were talking on top of each other so I could not understand what they were saying.

 

What was the key message there at 52 secs onwards?

[DavePelz4]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > However, a silent approval has been given by the RBs to use it.

> > > > > Source?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I assume Sui or antip can give a source as they said a stand-up putter is allowed so they must have a source. I have only a verbal confirmation from our National Association.

> > >

> > > We cannot prove a negative. The equipment rules are silent.

> >

> > So... a stand-alone putter is not an object, is that it?

> >

> > On the putting green I am not allowed to place my regular putter on the ground to indicate my line of play, that is forbidden in Rule 10.2b(2), and it is forbidden because my regular putter is an object. Now, a stand-alone putter is also an object, so I wonder what has Equipment Rules got to do with this?

>

> Mr Bean, I consider you a learned friend, but since 1 January 2019, you just seem to want to pick a fight with the Rules.

 

It's not just the rules.

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> I am afraid I did not get anything out of that. Partly because they were talking on top of each other so I could not understand what they were saying.

>

> What was the key message there at 52 secs onwards?

 

Commentator Amanda Blumenherst (LPGA Tour player) "I promise you it's going to be legal. They're going to make a little tweek to the rules coming up"

[Shilgy]

> @lanzador49 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > It's not the stand up putter itself that might be illegal, it's standing it up behind the ball and adjusting as needed from behind the ball before making a stroke that might be illegal. It's certainly not in the spirit of the new rule.

> > This is the wording of the prohibition. Seems pretty clear.

> > _The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made._

>

> If that's the wording of the prohibition, it would seem to follow that using a putter as such a guide to show the line of play would be prohibited. The stand alone putter manufacturers say the practice conforms, however.

> It just doesn't seem legal to be able to use a putter that way if you can't otherwise use a stick or a tee...now, of course, the guys I play with accuse me of using my cigar as an alignment aid (by putting it down next to my ball) all the time!

 

Maybe if you were planning to hit the ball with your cigar or tee the placement would be ok. I'm sure some will object to this line of reasoning but the standing putter is not an "object" placed for alignment.

Another club laid down would be an object in that use but the stand up putter is just a club.

[lanzador49]

Great news - I can still put my cigar down...!

 

Still seems kind of odd (!) to be able to use a club or any object to line a ball up before addressing the ball. Golf is an odd game...