AW Tillinghast. Best architect of all time?

[duffer987]

LOL! Yes my 'diatribe' where I agreed with you that I can think of Dye work that "just looks silly, is definitely not natural, and doesn't add to my enjoyment". Ya total fanboy here :-S

More LOLz, either you don't know what a non sequitur is or you are unable to answer questions and instead go with typical generalizations about unnatural this and that. To refresh your mind you earlier stated this (in reply to RK who it seems likely has seen more Irish/Scottish courses than you): "I have played all over Ireland and Scotland, those courses do not have these jokes on their courses either. You would understand had you played them". Hence my question along those lines.

For someone who has "played all over" I'd have expected you'd played 30/40 courses there at least so certainly more than two of those; therefore I was interested in how you tackled the instances where the things you call jokes are found on those courses. I guess you simply didn't play crap (or less crap) overseas than you did in Kohler, so you weren't presented with any unplayable situations. Well done.

Just incase you had more random stuff to spout, feel free to save your Youtube comment section follow-up, as that's more than enough from me on this tangent. Merry New Year :-)

[tdog3]

Drivel

[FairwayFred]

CB Macdonald and Seth Raynor built courses that were pretty natural tee to green but generally with man made, push up greens using the dirt from the deep bunkers they dug as fill. Not the same as alot of modern architects that create an entire golf course with a bull dozer.

As for the other topics being discussed, I live in Scotland for most of the year and I can't remember the last time I took an unplayable from a bunker. However it definitely can happen if you roll up against the front of a lip of a vertical sod stack or sleepered bunker. But it's rare you can't atleast get out sideways or backwards.

For me Tillinghast is very good but not in my top list. Most of his top rated courses have disappointed me a little bit when I played them though the front 9 at Somerset Hills is one of my favorites anywhere. He has good variety of styles he didn't build the same courses over and over again. He built some great green complexes. But I feel like alot of his courses that I've played have lacked a certain character tee to green that I'd expect out of some top rated courses. Not the top architect I'd seek out but not one I'd shy away from playing either.

 

 

[NJGolfer0624]

I only listed 9 of his better and more known courses. How many Ross courses have you played?

Other Ross courses that I have played and are really good are Knickerbocker, Echo Lake, Deal, Crestmont and Metacomet.

I didn’t list but have heard great things about Scioto, LuLu, St. David’s.

Sure there are some duds on the Ross resume but there are also duds for Tillinghast. Especially 2 within 30 minutes of my home.

[shotmark]

I'd say that its easy to "not rely on crazy gimmicks" when you come from a time when you have neither the machinery, the budget or the manpower to create them.

[dpb5031]

Front 9 at Somerset Hills = Sublime ?

[jwellefson1]

I thought it was clear in my first message sorry. Gimmicks to me are something new and different to a point that it creates a very odd or unseen effect. I don't hate gimmicks, i just think railroad ties are gimmicky. When I hit a ball at Bulle Rock for example and it's just short, but rockets off of a railroad tie 30 yards back, I find that gimmicky. Of course I should have just used a stronger club or hit a better shot, but that's that. Gimmicks aren't always bad things to me personally, but they're gimmicks nonetheless.

[jwellefson1]

I'm assuming you've played all of these courses to be able to say that these are all better than Donald Ross's courses, right?

[tdog3]

Scioto has been one of my greatest disappointments. Given the Jack history, was really geared up to play. Turned out to be a slightly better than average parkland routing with fast, elevated greens as it’s defense. However, the course lacked character and any memorable holes. The clubhouse was nice with a lot of Jack history on display.

St David’s has some really odd holes. Has the advantage of being only course within a 10 min radius within a well to do neighborhood.

[LICC]

You are listing a bunch of good courses. Lots of architects designed a bunch of good courses. Dev Emmet. Wayne Stiles. Stanley Thompson, etc. Ross seems to be more in the category of those designers than Mackenzie, Macdonald etc. who each designed more than a few elite masterpieces and other great courses. Ross benefits from the Pinehurst marketing machine, and most consumers get led right along. He has very good courses; I’m not disparaging him as a bad designer. He just doesn’t seem to me to be in the elite status that some put him in.

[LICC]

“Pretty natural” sounds right re Macdonald and Raynor, but not entirely. Their courses that I’ve played, which are outstanding, have principal nose bunkers in the fairways, which aren’t natural looking, and cross bunkering and fairway drops that are in the straight geometric manner. It is not natural for a fairway to drop steeply in a straight line at a 90 degree angle from edge to edge.

[FairwayFred]

Yes hence why I mentioned them digging deep bunkers and push up green complexes that are not natural.

Which courses you have played had fairway drops in the straight geometric manner where the fairway drops steeply in a straight line at a 90 degree angle from edge to edge? Which other ones have you played?

For reference I've played:

National Golf Links

Piping Rock

Gibson Island

Sleepy Hollow

St Louis

Blind Brook

Blue Mound

Camargo Club

Chicago GC

CC Charleston

CC Fairfield

Creek Club

Essex County

Everglades

Fishers Island

Fox Chapel

Greenbrier

Lake Success

Lookout Mtn

Meterie

MPCC (pre-reno)

Mountain Lake

Shoreacres

Southampton

Westhampton

Yale

Yeamans Hall

 

[LICC]

I’m not talking about the green complexes. I’m referring to fairways and fairway bunkers.

The open to the public course I played is Mid-Ocean. The others are private which I won’t name.

[duffer987]

Sure that's fair. I'm not familiar with the course, but can totally see and agree if the situation is where it was done purely for aesthetics. I just wanted to point out, using sleepers was actually a method of construction that had a genuine practical use, over and above just the looks, and would disagree with the characterization of them as gimmicks in those instances. Such as that bunker on 11 at Straits.

[jwellefson1]

I was not aware of that, thanks for pointing it out I appreciate it!

[FairwayFred]

Yes I understand. Hence the multiple uses of the word "fairway" in my question to you.

So you won't discuss courses you have played by name that are private? But your more than willing to call out courses and discuss one's that you have not played that are private? LOL

Can you give me an example of holes at Mid Ocean where the fairway drops in the straight geometric manner where the fairway drops steeply in a straight line at a 90 degree angle from edge to edge?

 

 

[LICC]

Yet you strangely felt the need to repeat your comment about deep bunkers and the greens, even though my comment was about the fairways. And I didn't "call out" any course here, please stop fabricating arguments.

The fairway drop I referenced wasn't at Mid-Ocean, but it was on one of the courses you say you played. I'll have to consider when reading your opinions that you don't remember course features after you play them. That said, at Mid-Ocean Macdonald on multiple holes did use his rectangular linear fairway bunkers.

[FairwayFred]

No you didn't call out any courses on this thread but have multiple times in other threads. So its certainly worth pointing out when all of a sudden you can't name the private courses you have played like it's some big secret.

I'd guess you don't want to talk specifics because your argument has virtually no real world basis like always. Just because you find one feature at one course does not make it a trend. Was this feature natural? Was this feature original? Many of these courses have been worked on by others. I asked you to name the course and the feature so we could have an actual discussion but like usual you have nothing relevant to say you only try to trun around the argument, insult and demean others.

Nobody is talking about bunkers and greens. Yes many Raynor and Macdonald courses have rectangular linear bunkers. My post was in response to you quoting someone who said they didn't like fake courses that are overly manufactured saying they wouldn't like Raynor or Macdonald courses. My point was that Raynor and Macdonald courses are actually pretty natural tee to green but with deep bunkers that they dug and used the full dirt to make their pushup greens. What I've always found interesting about playing them is seeing how they fit their template holes and features into the different natural landscape of the different courses they designed. Again I guess you missed the point. Had nothing to do with bunkers or greens. This is not the same construction technique as modern courses that are completely manufactured.

[LICC]

You are saying that Mac/Raynor courses have manufactured green complexes and manufactured looking bunkers but if someone doesn't like manufactured looking courses, they wouldn't mind it on Mac/Raynor courses because other than the green complexes and fairway bunkers the courses look natural. Not exactly an inspiring point you are making there ...

[FairwayFred]

Your lack of experience playing top courses and your lack of understanding of golf course architecture shines through once again. Pretty much all golden age architects in the USA built up green pads and dug artificial bunkers. The only difference is that Raynor and Macdonald left more angular square edges to their bunkers and greens and most of the others rounded them off more and used more organic shaped bunkers. That does not make them any less artificial.

Again, this is not the same thing as a course like say Whistling Straits or many others that are completely manufactured tee to green.

Again, I'd love to have a more nuanced and intelligent conversation about this but that's impossible to do with you when you refuse to talk actual specifics all the time or have simply just not played the course being discussed. Maybe check with whatever government agency and see if you can get the info on private courses you have played de-classified so we can have an actual conversation.

[NJGolfer0624]

No offense but I’d be more likely to believe this list than your single opinion where Scioto is #50. https://golfweek.com/2019/06/04/golfweeks-best-2019-top-200-classic-courses/

[NJGolfer0624]

You are completely dismissing the fact that Donald Ross has 9 of the top 50 classic courses saying he benefitted from Pinehurst. Seems strange but you seem to have a bias against Donald Ross courses. His courses are well represented against other classic architects. https://golfweek.com/2019/06/04/golfweeks-best-2019-top-200-classic-courses/

[LICC]

That's just bad spin. The basis of the conversation was the preference against manufactured-looking courses. Now you seem to be trying to say that Raynor's green complexes don't look manufactured even though you said earlier that they do look manufactured. You are arguing with yourself here.

Mac/Raynor had a distinct look of their template hole greens and used more squared-off geometric shaping of the greens and bunkers than others. They have a less naturalistic appearance generally than other courses designed by other Golden Age designers.

Your lack of observation of course features and limited knowledge of golf course architecture shines through once again.

[FairwayFred]

LOL what a joke of a reply. You have no argument and nothing to back it up so you deflect and insult and try change around the discussion. Again. I clearly stated that MacRaynor courses were mostly natural tee to green with built up man made greens and deep bunkers. Similarly to other top golden age architects with a little different aesthetic. But different from completely manufactured from tee to green modern courses. I'm sorry this is so hard for you. Again you can't engage in a nuanced intellegent conversation it's clearly impossible for you. When your ready to open up the vault and talk specifics I'm here. I love talking MacRaynor.

 

Its crazy that all I was asking was for some info about an observation you seemed to make about a specific feature but that turned into this because apparently that info is a closely guarded secret. Ridiculous.

[sailfishchris]

I just followed this whole discussion......who is MacRaynor? Is he a cousin of TillingRoss?

 

[FairwayFred]

Yeah sorry that got so far off topic. Let's get back to Tillinghast.

One interesting tidbit about Tillinghast, during the depression he was hired by the USGA to go around and consult with clubs on how to stay sustainable and cut costs during those tough times. Simply with the goal of staying open. He is responsible for alot of fairway bunkers being removed from golden age courses. He is probably also responsible for alot of those courses still being around today. Ita a part of his career that isn't discussed much. I always found that interesting.

[LICC]

Weak diversion. The discussion is about the manufactured vs naturalistic look. I’m with @Roadking2003 , I don’t knock a course for being built up from nothing if it plays great and looks great.

[FairwayFred]

Diversion? Blah blah blah. No ability to have a nuanced, detailed, intelligent conversation. All you can do is deflect, insult and avoid answering specific questions and points raised. And claim that you have played somewhere which might allow you to raise an actual, relevant point but instead you can't actually discuss it because it's at a mythical private course which of course you could never reveal the identity of online. It's really a shame.

The 3 of us are in agreement. One of my favorite places to play and one that I am part of the ownership group of is completely manufactured from a terrible site and it's become super popular. Nobody is disagreeing with a great course being a great course regardless of what it starts as. Some have expressed distaste for gimmicky courses but that can have different meaning to different people and is not the same thing as a course that's manufactured.

 

[duffer987]

^To that end, does a designer need to have a larger geographic reach to be considered the 'best'?

I have limited exposure to Tillie's work due to being West Coast-based, over and above any access issues, by not being able to play his East Coast/Mid Atlantic privates. It's possible that biases me against him, especially against someone like MacKenzie who has designed courses on all kinds of different terrain types and course styles all over the world.

Based on the courses I've played and what I've read and watched, I would be way more inclined to nominate MacKenzie as 'best' if I had to pick and that larger variety would be a good part of it.

[sailfishchris]

I played Shackamaxon (Tillinghast) this summer through the MGA. The pro was telling us that that 18 which is an island green was played by Dye when he was designing TPC -story goes he came in played 18 twice and left. Comparison? Ideas? Fazio played it also... but played the whole course-LOL! They have pictures of them playing the course in the clubhouse. FWIW Ross was no slouch. Dunedin in Florida is one of my favorite courses -no water! In Florida! Genius!