AW Tillinghast. Best architect of all time?

[duffer987]

No shame in the pro telling harmless porkies is there? ;-)

"In his book, “Bury Me in a Pot Bunker,” Pete Dye explained what happened next: “In 1946, Alice and I had played architect Herbert Strong’s Ponte Vedra Club, located just minutes from the TPC course, which featured a massive green set out in the water. Surrounding the green were large sand bunkers and lots of grass berm, providing multiple bail-out positions for players…. The idea of an island green flashed in my mind, and I called Alice over to discuss it with her. Perhaps it was the memory of Strong’s island green, but I knew we had happened onto something special. Alice’s enthusiasm matched mine….”

Alice, who died Feb. 1, held a somewhat different version of the events. She said she didn’t think of Strong’s island green at the time, and the Dyes’ island green was her idea when she saw the lake three-quarters around the site for the green, and Pete agreed with her suggestion."

[NJGolfer0624]

True or not, 18 at Shack plays as a par 4 which is different in theory than the 17th at Sawgrass which plays as a 130ish yard single shot over water. In any event, Shack isn’t one of Tillinghast’s better designs in the area.

[sailfishchris]

Like I said maybe it was a comparison. Shackamaxon was built in 1917. Ponte Verde was built after that, but, all in similar concept ...island greens.

[tdog3]

No offense taken. I’m well aware of the ranking, which typifies my reason for my disappointment. However, showing the well known rankings as you did comes across as petty (just like LICC, duffer etc seem to be - petty with no value add comments). Figures since you have no first hand knowledge of the course.

I shared my opinion with the president of the club when playing there (he was in my foursome and I know him well). Good luck playing it. Hope you have a better experience.

[FairwayFred]

I'm w tdog. Scioto is a slightly above average country club course. Very disappointing considering the ranking and hype. Guess it's not shocking since it's where Jack grew up etc. Would be a fine place to be a member if you lived locally but not a course worth seeking out to play if you have to travel far IMO.

[NJGolfer0624]

Speaking of Petty..... Did you read your post? Lol

No I don’t have first hand knowledge of Scioto but if you scroll up you can see the “value” you speak of when it comes to Ross courses. I do find that much of a Ross course has to do with the green complexes rather than the layout. I wouldn’t call Scioto his top layout or even in his Top 5 but rather a highlighted course in his portfolio.

[FairwayFred]

There is not a ton of Ross left at Scioto. I wouldn't really consider it a Ross course. It used to be a Ross course but not so much anymore. Not at all a standout set of greens especially compared to any top set of Ross greens.

[NJGolfer0624]

Nothing wrong with having an opinion that is contrary to popular opinion. I will again point out that Scioto isn’t the premier course in the Donald Ross portfolio. I have played Delray Beach golf club which is a Ross course and even appreciate that as run down as it is. It’s the Ross green complex’s that are interesting to me.

[NJGolfer0624]

You are right Ari, I bet that’s why they’re attempting to restore it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/09/19/scioto-country-club-to-invest-7m-to-restore.html

[FairwayFred]

Unfortunately as I noted above you would not find interesting Ross greens at Scioto.

[FairwayFred]

That sounds like an exciting project. Will be excited to see it when they are done. Green did some great work at Inverness.

[Roadking2003]

So, if you hit rocks rather than railroad ties is that gimmicks?

[FairwayFred]

Are we talking rocks that were not intentionally put there or a rock outcropping etc that is a part of the design?

[jwellefson1]

I'd say if it's like a rock that is shaped and manually created into a rectangle, then have more than five around a green "protecting" it then yeah thats gimmicky. If it's just there naturally then obviously no. I wouldn't consider hitting a tree gimmicky.

[tdog3]

As the Supreme Court justice Stewart said about porn “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it!”

We are all smart enough to know gimmicks on a course when presented. Defining them so concise and sufficiently encompassing at the same time is nearly impossible. For people to request otherwise is being difficult for sake of being difficult.

[LICC]

Any idea why Alpine is never mentioned when Tillinghast's great courses are listed? At the time he designed it (originally called Aldecress) he wrote very positively about the property and the course, highlighting the elevations and fairway movement.

[dpb5031]

I've played Alpine, it's excellent with very challenging greens.

[NJGolfer0624]

Played Alpine in 2015, don’t remember much of the course except the greens being severe and I believe a narrow course. It was nice but I think he has much better courses in the state such as Somerset Hills, Baltusrol, Upper Montclair, Ridgewood, Suburban, Essex County and Mountain Ridge.

[dpb5031]

Love all that you've mentioned!

[Divot License]

I'm a big fan of James Braid courses over here in the UK

Also the two Tom Simpson courses I've played really impressed me.

[platgof]

I would play a gimmicky course if it enhanced the beauty of the course. I really enjoy seeing the green, and hate blind shots. I want to play some of the courses on the RTJ's trail. Yes, they are certainly contrived, but are so gorgeous.

[LICC]

A legend, and one of the greatest architects in history:https://www.pgatour.com/news/2020/01/09/pete-dye-passes-away-at-age-94.html

[tiderider]

they're not all that contrived ...

[duffer987]

Agreed. We played the Grand National and Capitol Hill ones a few years ago. It's inexpensive fun golf, with some excellent stretches, in a part of the world we'd otherwise not have gone to.

Yes you need to cart them for the most part and earth was moved, but I don't remember too many spots where I thought, ya that's just silly.

[platgof]

Alabama hit the payload with the RTJ's trail! Definitely at the top of my list of places to visit.

[hanfrac]

Hard to compare guys who did relatively many courses (Ross, Fazio, Mackenzie, Tillinghast) with the ones who only did a few (Thomas, Macdonald, Willie Watson).

Seems like when this argument happens in 20-30 years, Coore/Crenshaw and Doak will be part of the argument.

[tiderider]

it's tough to top mackenzie or colt, imo ... colt has a very impressive resume of original designs, coupled with additions/renovations to some stellar courses ... mackenzie, even if by luck, had some incredible land to work on and made the most of it ...