Finally! I found my anti-left hybrid!

[Mahamilto]

You make excellent points and getting it right is paramount. No question.

I would recommend that people get fit and hit on grass if possible, or at least on a launch monitor and look at your flight.

The apex is very anti-left for a hybrid. But if you play stuff flatter as is, an adjustment could be considered for the right player (which I was).

The fact you can order it flatter was little known, and for some could be a godsend.

I also know I shallow out more with my hybrids. I hit them a bit more like a wood, and not as steep as an iron. That may make my delivery be a bit more toe up. I think this is somewhat common in hybrids and fairways for amateurs, and it’s always been much harder to find proper fit in these clubs.

but yes, everyone should be aware of the static lies, and make sure their choices are right for them!

[CantPutt9]

What shaft you have in Mav Pro hybrids?

[VictorValiant]

I tried the stock KBS Tour, Rogue Silver, Atmos Black and Project X Catalyst. Ended up going with the Catalyst. Really like this combo.

[Chuck905]

My experience on missing left with hybrids wasn’t an equipment issue but rooted to my swing issues.

Went thru a lot of swing lessons the last two years, bought a driving iron this spring but tested out hybrids as well just for fun. Honesty, they do have their place for when you want high launch and spin.

But this hybrids missing left on me thing is false to me.

I think lie angles are more pronounced in the short irons and wedges then they are in the long irons or woods.

[Chuck905]

Wouldn’t cutting a full inch off the grip bring you closer to the ball and therefore play more upright?

[DallasSteve]

Keep cutting until it is really short and close to you. Which part of the club will be closest to the ground? Yes, the toe. Making the club shorter makes the lie flatter.

[Mahamilto]

Lie increases in shorter clubs because shorter clubs would be toe down if lie was not progressively more upright.

Most mass produced hybrids are made with slicers in mind, and lie angle and weighting are ways this was combatted.

The apex was designed more for player. It is more neutral/toe weighted by design and is flatter than most.

For me going a touch flatter than that made it perfect.

[Chuck905]

It still doesn’t add up to me.

Would your swing plane be higher or shallower with shortened irons?

[Mahamilto]

Static lie is how the club sits relative to the ground. It doesn’t change on club length, however, the longer the shaft the further you will be standing away from the ball. This makes the shaft increasingly more parallel with the ground... thus bringing the toe up.

This is why EVERY single set ever made (at least in modern times certainly) has flatter lies progressively as you go up in length. Look at the specs for any set. Seriously.

It is also why good fitters will put lies flatter in plus length clubs, and more upright in shortened clubs. (Assuming the player would use standard lie if standard length)

As for adjusting, if you had a fairway (or example) that you wanted to play flatter, you could simply shorten the club. This would make your dynamic lie flatter, because you would be standing more over the club.

[Chuck905]

 

Too many contradictions.

“dynamic lie flatter” ? Shortening a club would bring you closer to the ball, therefore a more upright swing path and more face rotation thru impact which would encourage a left miss.

It’s normal for the hands to be high and have toe drop at impact. I wouldn’t be worried about the toe being slightly up at address, it’s normal.

Your impact dictates if you need flatter or upright irons not static address.

I get swing lessons from a club pro, and he has his shorter irons and wedges flatter (then standard in the longer irons, woods and driver) for short pitches and flops, plus he never wants to pull scoring irons on full shots.

 

 

[Mahamilto]

If I take a 40.5” hybrid with 55* of static lie, and I shorten it to 39.5”, the static lie doesn’t change, BUT the manufacturer would have built that club with 57* of lie due to the shorter length and standard progression of around 1* of lie added per 0.5” shorter, though this exact calculation changes some as clubs become significantly shorter. Feel free to reference any manufacturer iron sets to see what I mean.

Effectively, by shortening the club 1” and leaving the lie alone, I now have a club playing 2* flat of specs.

If you will just trust me, there is a reason shorter clubs are more upright statically. You even alluded to it.

But if I’m fit to play 2* flat (which I am), and I can’t flatten a hybrid or fairway (which often you can’t) making the club shorter is another way to do it. I’m fit for my dynamic lie because how I deliver the club. That is 2* flat of standard. So if I shortened the club I achieve that.

[Chuck905]

“If you will just trust me”, not sure if I should now haha?

All you prove was that your hybrid was too long.

What lie angle do you play your PW to? There would be your root answer.

Your math doesn’t apply to everybody or because every manufacturer varies in specifications.

In Lehman terms, if I cut a 7 iron 1/2”, it becomes an 8 iron length club but 1/2* flat. If you need 2* flat by your math, you would need to take off 2”!

[Mahamilto]

Its typically 1* lie for 0.5”

I’m 6’4 and play extended length (plus 1/2”), they fit. They were professionally fit. And they work.

I play 2* flat of standard lie across the board on my irons and wedges. Meaning, if adjusted for the length, I would play 1* flat on standard length.

I actually also play all of my wedges at 36”, because I prefer having no club under that length. I stand relatively upright at address, and love having no shorter clubs

My PW, just like all my wedges, are 62* in lie.

[Chuck905]

Thank you for sharing your stats.

My concern was your numbers doesn’t necessarily apply to everybody else. Funny enough, I’m on the opposite spectrum to you, and most people on this thread. So it’s alarming when somebody says I found an anti left club when in most cases it’s a swing issue. I actually use to believe there was an anti left shaft, which of course is in my driver haha.

I am 5-3 but my hands are high at impact and need toe clearance thru the turf. Otherwise, I am fanning shots to the right all day. I also have a flat set-up compared to modern golfers, combined with a tall outside takeaway and an inside to out down swing. I also still have a reverse C, all the talented young kids nowadays look at my finish like I am foreigner.

I just went thru a recent spring fitting for ping irons i210, play Pings current standard lie (64* in the PW) and length.

Last summer, got fitted with 2018 Callaway Apex MB and those are 2* upright (66* in the PW) and standard length.

My above clubs have the same length (which I feel is the most important factor in a fitting), but the static lie angles are different because I’m using different shafts and also head designs, one being forged and the other cast.

Your math was different to mine. The simple analogy of cutting a 7 iron 1/2” to an 8 iron length plays 1/2* flatter. If you go longer, say 1/2” to 6 iron length, your 7 iron now plays 1/2* upright.

Makes sense knowing that you play off a 62* PW.

[jb640042]

I love my apex 19 hybrid. I assume any club builder can bend it flat? Or is this something specific Callaway is able to accomplish

[Mahamilto]

I asked a few builders/shops before COVID shutdown and only one of 5 or 6 places said that they would even try, and only if I signed a waiver saying if they broke it they weren't liable.

TBH, I don't really see why it couldn't be bent 1-2*, but the Cally product ordered custom is probably a different mold, or at the very least they do the bend without the graphite shaft installed and under a monitored pressure (I'm assuming this).

But you can ask!

[Dayjobdave]

My miss is big left, and with hybrids on my course where OB left was the architect’s default move, this has been a huge challenge. As a Ping guy I think I will just order a 410 and try out the flat setting. Thanks for the feedback on the flat Callaway. If Iget even part of the positive result you’ve had, the purchase will be worth it.

[Mahamilto]

Just for feedback, I overall like the 410 hybrids, and the idea of the 3* flat setting is brilliant from a company that regularly makes clubs that are for the “every man” golfer who typically battles a slice.

My issue with the ping hybrids (and fairways tbh) is that they just setup closed to me, even with the -1* loft setting (which opens the face about 1.8* is my understanding)

I have a G410LST 3 wood that I picked up because I killed it in a demo, but lo and behold it just sits visibly closed at address, even in Flat with -1* loft setting. I can turn it slightly open in my grip, and the thing is both long and forgiving, but I fight a hook with it when my swing isn’t perfectly grooved. It’s a lot mental; I fully admit it, but I just couldn’t get over the closed look at address.

I picked up an M5 3 wood instead and set it -0.75* loft. Shockingly, the M5 looks about 3-4* more open at address. It literally blew me away. I don’t know what the face angles are exactly, but the M5 looks so much more open and my results are straight flight with an ability to hit a fade when I want. Shocked me.

The same issue came with the G410 hybrids as compared to apex. Even in Flat with -1* loft, they appeared to be slightly closed, while the apex looked dead square, if not 1* open.

While 100% these things could be in my head, how the club sits behind the ball just changes the way I swing it, and having a club that sits a tad open completely eliminates any thought of having to compensate/fight against my left miss.

Even at a single digit handicap, having the clubs that look right at address significantly improves my ball striking.

I hope the G410 nails it for you; if not, give the apex a swing.

[JCray33]

Ordered the Titleist 816 H1 Hybrid as you can adjust lie flatter (1 degree) on there and the occasional sweeping hook still comes into play =(. I also decreased the loft a degree as well 21 down to 20...Have heard reallly good things about the Callaway Apex Hybrid and it being anti-left

[Mahamilto]

Yeah. I had a 818h1 I set flat and open. It lasted two rounds and one range session. One of my many failed hybrid experiments.

Thing was way too easy to hit left.

[Mikey5e]

I still use the Callaway X Hot hybrids, which are about five years old now, and I have to be careful with them as they will have a tendency to go left especially as my shot shaping is a draw. I have learned to adapt to this tendency and compensate to keep the ball on the line I want it to be. In other words, I know my clubs.

[dwh24]

I love my Callaway Apex 19 hybrid 20*. I had a PING G hybrid 19 degree X-stiff that I could hit an absolute mile but every now a then a huge hook right and OB. On the Apex you really have to drop in inside and really swing inside out just to get a 5-10 yard draw. You can really go after it and it's either a straight bomb or a baby fade.

[Mahamilto]

This is my exact experience. It’s the first hybrid I hit a stock straight shot with. My stock shot is fairly straight with all clubs, but my miss is a pull/draw when I stop my body a tad early and/or let my hands get in front. This draw/pull miss with any hybrid I previously owned was just outright awful... a fairway over or OB left; my other clubs it is typically in play unless I’m really going for the left side of the course or something. This just made me have no faith in any of the multiple hybrids I had before; any time there was trouble left the hybrids remained in the bag, and these were supposed to be the clubs to help my game? This made them rarely hit and more or less a useless spot in the bag.

Because of this all the hybrids were failed experiments and were replaced by a driving iron that functioned only off the tee or when I could roll up onto the green from 225-240. I hit driver and 3w well off the tee, so while I liked the driving iron, I didn’t see any real improvement to my score. After finding this club, my gaps to attack pins from longer range are much tighter... 3w = 240 carry, 3h = 225 carry, 4i = 210... so many more options. And I feel very comfortable hitting a mid flight draw with the apex off the tee that gets out to 240-250 when I have a nice firm fairway. It’s just a weapon, and I’ve still yet to hit a shot crazy left, even from an absurdly bad swing. My misses are much more playable, and this is absolutely the first hybrid I can hit a soft landing fade when called upon.

Basically, it does exactly what a hybrid is designed to do, which I never found before despite lots of wasted cash and hours reading reviews.

[Dayjobdave]

This sums up why I have a G410 22* arriving tomorrow. If I can calm down (I can’t even imagine “remove”) left side trouble with a hybrid on my home course this will be huge for my scores and far More importantly will take the single biggest stress and frustration point out of my game.

Fingers crossed :-)

[dwh24]

@Mahamilto that 250 off the tee is money on tight holes. It's just a great all around club and im not a Callaway guy at all.