How are shots shaped easier with blades?

[mitchleary]

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

I am curious what it means you can shape shots easier with blades.

 

Right now i am using the mx25 and how is it easier to shape shots with clubs like the mp32?

 

Thank you.

[bambam]

It is easier to shape balls with blades because there is more mass behind the ball at impact vs cavity back/perimeter weighted clubs. More mass behind the ball = more force applied to the ball to manipulate spin and traj.

[hoganfan924]

I know I'll get flamed but I think this is mostly a myth (if the ball is struck on the sweet spot). However, some players will work a ball by hitting it toward the toe or heel (I do this sometimes with woods but not irons). In that case, a blade, due to it's lower MOI will twist more and generate more gear effect spin (and greater distance loss). I think some players also feel that it is also easier to manipulate the face through impact with a blade (I suppose because of the lower MOI). And it is true that non-offset blades have a much lower MOI [b]about the shaft [/b]than offset cavities making them "easier to twist." (OEM's measure cluhead MOI about the Cg of the clubhead, not the hosel - big difference!). I can promise you this, I can hook the highest MOI 9 iron on the planet 40 yards if I want to, just shut the face down about 20 deg. at address and make a normal swing. Did that exact shot twice in a tournament this year when I found myselft behind trees in the left rough. Blades mystical "workability" is way overrated IMO. Workability = creative marketing term for "unforgiving," IMO.

Now before everyone gangs up on me, I've only played forged clubs for years because I need flat lies and I prefer how they feel and am currently trying out 3 different sets of blade irons (and haven't noticed any additional "workability" as I don't ever try to manipulate the face through impact)

[Lake]

Hoganfan answered this bad boy but I will add my opinion as I watch the Merrill Lynch replayed on Univeral HD

The way "game-improvement" irons are made will slightly help a poor shot. More than likely those shovels will have perimeter weighting (heel/toe) out the wazoo and that will help in squaring the clubface on an off center hit. A player that has command of their clubface will find that a "game-improvement" iron will strong-arm their attempt to work the ball due to its design. But, like HF said you close that sucker down its going left. A blade does not have perimeter weighting so it's not providing any protection against off-center hits. Forged-blades also tend to wear out grooves faster...I practice with my 7-iron the most and it's obvious.

Most blades have a solid clubface back, which distributes the weight more evenly across the clubface. Thus, a blade has a much smaller sweet spot than a cavity back. A blade is also much less forgiving than a cavity back because it twists more in a player's hands on mis-hits. Distributing the weight evenly across the clubface, however, creates an iron with better control and more feel.

Casting turns the metal chosen to make the club into a molten liquid, which is then poured into a mold to form the iron head. It's then left to cool(LESS $). Forging involves pounding or compressing the metal, in it's solid form, from which the iron head is made into the desired shape(MORE $$$$). I've heard of quality control issues with Titleist irons but good things from Mizuno...just what I've heard...my Titleist rep is on this board sometimes...but I told him my opinion during our last visit and he knows it's about the balls & Cobra stuff.

IMOP, the manufacturing process has no impact on the iron's capabilities. If you have two irons, one forged and one cast, of exactly the same shape, with the same center of gravity, same loft, same grip, hitting the same ball, and so on, the shots will travel the same distances. And IMOP, most players wouldn't know one from the other

[b]The following effects the flight SLIGHTLY[/b]
COG is up on the club- lower launch angle/trajectory
COG is lower on club- higher launch angle/trajectory
COG is farther back from shaft- higher launch angle/trajectory/harder to close face
COG is closer to the shaft- lower launch angle/trajectory/easier to close face

Lake

ps- For the most part I try to get players into forged irons so that I can bend them if a lesson or swingchange over time adjusts their specs. Mizuno makes a wide range of forgings. I just hate it when I have to send a set into PING, etc to have them tweak the lie...shipping $, TIME, & whatamIgoodforfeeling

[jeffy]

The more backspin applied to the ball, the less any sidespin effects ball-flight. To the degree some cavity-backs and game improvement clubs increase backspin relative to blades, it becomes more difficult to apply curving sidespin. That's the reason.

[Lake]

[quote name='jeffy' post='818988' date='Dec 10 2007, 11:50 AM']The more backspin applied to the ball, the less any sidespin effects ball-flight. To the degree some cavity-backs and game improvement clubs increase backspin relative to blades, it becomes more difficult to apply curving sidespin. That's the reason.[/quote]

Good post Jeffy...just going to add some nuts on this hot fudge sunday There is no such thing as SIDESPIN...only backspin and the amount the axis of backspin rotation has been tilted to the left or right from the player's delivery of the clubface to the ball.

Curve balls are due to the axis of backspin rotation either tilting to the right(slices) or left(hooks).....right-handed players

Lake

[mikpga]

Less MOI...

The higher the MOI, that harder it is to influence the 'sidespin' number...

The lower the MOI, the easier it is to influence the 'sidespine' number...

[ezra76]

Personally I think so. When you are talking working the flight higher and lower as well I can hit the shots I know how to hit better. My buddy brought his newly acquired set of Bridgestone J33b's with X100's to the range the other day. I was striking the ball very well and had a go with them. Sorta wish I hadn't. Started showing off and called the high cut 3i from 190... to 2 feet. Last one before we left I called the trapdraw 9 from 140ish and it came out low, rise, draw and nearly hit the stick on the little mound. I can do that with my irons but I could control the overall trajectory better with those and they were more accurate. On an average striking day? I'll stick with mine, at least a toe shot 5iron leaves me a chance at an up and down chip vs. a 7irons out of the right rough.

[jeffy]

[quote name='lake' post='819033' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:37 PM'][quote name='jeffy' post='818988' date='Dec 10 2007, 11:50 AM']The more backspin applied to the ball, the less any sidespin effects ball-flight. To the degree some cavity-backs and game improvement clubs increase backspin relative to blades, it becomes more difficult to apply curving sidespin. That's the reason.[/quote]

Good post Jeffy...just going to add some nuts on this hot fudge sunday There is no such thing as SIDESPIN...only backspin and the amount the axis of backspin rotation has been tilted to the left or right from the player's delivery of the clubface to the ball.

Curve balls are due to the axis of backspin rotation either tilting to the right(slices) or left(hooks).....right-handed players

Lake
[/quote]

Good point; now my head is spinning...

[Texsport]

A lot of the ability to work the ball with any kind of club head has been reduced since wound balls died.

Today's solid core bullets want to go straight.

The largest advantage for CBs is with long irons---where players are more likely to miss hit slightly. The first CB a lot of good players put in their bags was the Ping 2-iron.

Since most players have now replaced their 2, 3, and even 4 irons with hybrids----it's now easier to hit whatever style you want---no more long irons.

I do have a theory that players with body controlled/connected clubface deliveries will have more luck with blades than players with max lag/wristy deliveries.

Texsport

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Texsport' post='819227' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:24 PM']A lot of the ability to work the ball with any kind of club head has been reduced since wound balls died.

Today's solid core bullets want to go straight.

The largest advantage for CBs is with long irons---where players are more likely to miss hit slightly. The first CB a lot of good players put in their bags was the Ping 2-iron.

Since most players have now replaced their 2, 3, and even 4 irons with hybrids----it's now easier to hit whatever style you want---no more long irons.

I do have a theory that players with body controlled/connected clubface deliveries will have more luck with blades than players with max lag/wristy deliveries.

Texsport[/quote]


HEY Tex!! GREAT to "see" you around these parts.......hehehe......MERRY CHRISTMAS my friend!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lake' post='819033' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:37 PM'][quote name='jeffy' post='818988' date='Dec 10 2007, 11:50 AM']The more backspin applied to the ball, the less any sidespin effects ball-flight. To the degree some cavity-backs and game improvement clubs increase backspin relative to blades, it becomes more difficult to apply curving sidespin. That's the reason.[/quote]

Good post Jeffy...just going to add some nuts on this hot fudge sunday There is no such thing as SIDESPIN...only backspin and the amount the axis of backspin rotation has been tilted to the left or right from the player's delivery of the clubface to the ball.

Curve balls are due to the axis of backspin rotation either tilting to the right(slices) or left(hooks).....right-handed players

Lake
[/quote]

Lake,

If a ball will spin only on one axis of rotation and that axis is angled relative to the horizon, there is both a vertical and horizontal component to the spin, just as a vector in space has an X, Y & Z component in cartesian coordinates. The vertical component of the spin (spin around a vertical axis) can be calculated and that's exactly what a launch monitor does to give a sidespin reading.

[Lake]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='819278' date='Dec 10 2007, 04:07 PM']If a ball will spin only on one axis of rotation and that axis is angled relative to the horizon, there is both a vertical and horizontal component to the spin, just as a vector in space has an X, Y & Z component in cartesian coordinates. The vertical component of the spin (spin around a vertical axis) can be calculated and that's exactly what a launch monitor does to give a sidespin reading.[/quote]

From our friends at Titleist:

"Spin rate is the amount of rotation that a golf ball has when it leaves the tee. The component of spin most often quoted is backspin, which is the measurement of a golf ball's rotation in the horizontal axis perpendicular to the target line. Another component of total spin rate is sidespin, which creates draws and fades, as well as the dreaded hooks and slices. Although many recreational players regard sidespin as a negative byproduct of a bad swing, most accomplished players require equipment that will allow them to shape the trajectory of a shot. [b]In reality, a golf shot has no separate backspin and sidespin components, but rather one spin rate and an axis of rotation - similar to the banking angle of an airplane.[/b]"

Nasa Link explains the same thing: [url="http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/beach.html"]http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/beach.html[/url]
Trackman tracks their data on degrees of spin axis as well: [url="http://www.trackmangolf.com/newsletter/nov07/TMNewsNov2007.pdf"]http://www.trackmangolf.com/newsletter/nov...NewsNov2007.pdf[/url]

ie: -5deg = draw

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lake' post='819406' date='Dec 10 2007, 06:36 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='819278' date='Dec 10 2007, 04:07 PM']If a ball will spin only on one axis of rotation and that axis is angled relative to the horizon, there is both a vertical and horizontal component to the spin, just as a vector in space has an X, Y & Z component in cartesian coordinates. The vertical component of the spin (spin around a vertical axis) can be calculated and that's exactly what a launch monitor does to give a sidespin reading.[/quote]

From our friends at Titleist:

"Spin rate is the amount of rotation that a golf ball has when it leaves the tee. The component of spin most often quoted is backspin, which is the measurement of a golf ball's rotation in the horizontal axis perpendicular to the target line. Another component of total spin rate is sidespin, which creates draws and fades, as well as the dreaded hooks and slices. Although many recreational players regard sidespin as a negative byproduct of a bad swing, most accomplished players require equipment that will allow them to shape the trajectory of a shot. [b]In reality, a golf shot has no separate backspin and sidespin components, but rather one spin rate and an axis of rotation - similar to the banking angle of an airplane.[/b]"
[/quote]

Yes, I agree 100% but from a mathematical/physics/engineering perspective, there is both a vertical and horizontal [b]component[/b] to that rotation, just as there is an X,Y & Z component to the vector that plane is travelling on. The vertical component can easily be calculated and again, thats what a launch monitor does.

[Lake]

I know my Vector does veritical/horizontal spin #'s but not Trackman: [url="http://www.trackmangolf.com/newsletter/nov07/TMNewsNov2007.pdf"]http://www.trackmangolf.com/newsletter/nov...NewsNov2007.pdf[/url]

[url="http://www.trackmangolf.com/index.php?id=141,175,0"]http://www.trackmangolf.com/index.php?id=141,175,0[/url] .....the first video shows a run-through on their product.

[Texsport]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='819251' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:46 PM'][quote name='Texsport' post='819227' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:24 PM']A lot of the ability to work the ball with any kind of club head has been reduced since wound balls died.

Today's solid core bullets want to go straight.

The largest advantage for CBs is with long irons---where players are more likely to miss hit slightly. The first CB a lot of good players put in their bags was the Ping 2-iron.

Since most players have now replaced their 2, 3, and even 4 irons with hybrids----it's now easier to hit whatever style you want---no more long irons.

I do have a theory that players with body controlled/connected clubface deliveries will have more luck with blades than players with max lag/wristy deliveries.

Texsport[/quote]


HEY Tex!! GREAT to "see" you around these parts.......hehehe......MERRY CHRISTMAS my friend!
[/quote]

Great to find your home! I've spent a couple of days catching up on your posts.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Texsport

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Texsport' post='819468' date='Dec 10 2007, 08:34 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='819251' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:46 PM'][quote name='Texsport' post='819227' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:24 PM']A lot of the ability to work the ball with any kind of club head has been reduced since wound balls died.

Today's solid core bullets want to go straight.

The largest advantage for CBs is with long irons---where players are more likely to miss hit slightly. The first CB a lot of good players put in their bags was the Ping 2-iron.

Since most players have now replaced their 2, 3, and even 4 irons with hybrids----it's now easier to hit whatever style you want---no more long irons.

I do have a theory that players with body controlled/connected clubface deliveries will have more luck with blades than players with max lag/wristy deliveries.

Texsport[/quote]


HEY Tex!! GREAT to "see" you around these parts.......hehehe......MERRY CHRISTMAS my friend!
[/quote]

Great to find your home! I've spent a couple of days catching up on your posts.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Texsport
[/quote]


You too my friend! L S U........hehehe

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lake' post='819429' date='Dec 10 2007, 07:02 PM']I know my Vector does veritical/horizontal spin #'s but not Trackman: [url="http://www.trackmangolf.com/newsletter/nov07/TMNewsNov2007.pdf"]http://www.trackmangolf.com/newsletter/nov...NewsNov2007.pdf[/url]

[url="http://www.trackmangolf.com/index.php?id=141,175,0"]http://www.trackmangolf.com/index.php?id=141,175,0[/url] .....the first video shows a run-through on their product.[/quote]

Right,

Because a vector LM takes two pictures of the ball and calculates trajectory, speed and spin (why you must put a line on the ball), while the trackman uses doppler radar to track the entire trajectory of the ball (and I assume the clubhead through the impact zone). Trackman has no means to measure spin directly but it must calculate spin based on a set of mathematical algorithms, just as the Vector has no means to measure clubhead speed directly but must use a mathematical formula. The makers of these devices are very clever in not revealing what is actually measured and what is calculated.

Did you notice on the trackman demo, that the first 9 iron he hit had 9334 rpm of spin, but the average of the two he hit later were only 5540 rpm? Yet his trajectory was very similar. Quite suspect spin data IMO, which is what can happen when you have to calculate based on an algorithm.

Vector has a similar problem with clubhead speed calculations. They assume a 1.49 smash factor for a driver as best I can figure and allow for slight variation based on launch angle I'd suspect. But neither company will tell you any of this, so guys like me are left to speculate about how they actually measure or calculate things. I bet you'd be shocked to learn how much of the information from these LM's is not directly measured.

[Lake]

HF,

We are on the same page:) HF...I've been looking at getting a K-Vest...any rec's on 3-D toys? Since Tex & Slice are passing egg-nog I don't feel bad about T-Jacking this motha

Lake

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lake' post='819513' date='Dec 10 2007, 08:11 PM']HF,

We are on the same page:) HF...I've been looking at getting a K-Vest...any rec's on 3-D toys? Since Tex & Slice are passing egg-nog I don't feel bad about T-Jacking this motha

Lake[/quote]

BTW, I think a Trackman is far superior to a Vector, especially if used outdoors where it can track the entire flight of the ball. Man, if I could devote my life to golf research, the things I could do with a K-vest and a launch monitor! It would make the reasearch they publish on GD look like childs play!

Like the new X-factor research in the Jan. 08 GD. I think McLean got his numbers right, just not necessarily all of his conclusions. For example, in the 3rd element (head swivel) they should have cross plotted the head data with shoulder turn at impact understand the correlation. I'd bet $100 bucks there is a strong correlation, in other words, the more open the shoulders at impact the more the head is turned toward the target. Just an educated guess on my part, but if they didn't they should have cross plotted the data to see if there was a correlation. If there is, the 3rd X-factor component could well be shoulder angle at impact and not head angle. Like I said, just an educated guess on my part.

I think tools like this are/will revolutionize our understanding of the golf swing and hopefully create a revolution in how it is taught.

[hezlett]

[quote name='jeffy' post='818988' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:50 PM']The more backspin applied to the ball, the less any sidespin effects ball-flight. To the degree some cavity-backs and game improvement clubs increase backspin relative to blades, it becomes more difficult to apply curving sidespin. That's the reason.[/quote]

They don't always advertise it but a lot of shovels are heel weighted. This combined with generous offset adds up to a draw bias. A decent player who uses shovels might take note of this before wasting years trying to hit anything resembling a fade.

[hoganfan924]

Here's an alternative theory:

Conventional irons, aka "blades," have the Cg of the clubhead positioned higher than cavity backed irons (which are often heavily sole weighted). Very, very good players, because they hit down on the ball more with a steeper clubhead angle of attack (why their divots bottom out further in front of the ball) and more forward shaft lean, typically hit the ball higher on the clubface than poor players. The higher Cg of blades correlates with a higher sweet spot. Now, this isn't a huge difference, maybe one groove at most I'd think (can look this up on Maltby's site). Therefore, to a good player a blade may feel more solid while a cavity back might feel a little clunky (because they consistently hit them above the sweet spot), while to a poor player the opposite is true (even if struck in the center of the face). So many very good players prefer the feel of a blade. The higher Cg, also allows them to hit lower trajectory shots "on command" without hitting them so thin that they feel super clanky. The better player who prefers blades then correlates that to being "more workable" even if there's little difference in the ability to shape shots side to side.

[Lake]

Mike stated MOI earlier and I think it deserves a description for those that don't know what it means

[b]Roger Maltby states[/b]:
"Moment of Inertia(MOI) is simply the clubhead's resistance to turning or rotating when hitting a ball. If you strike iron off center, the clubhead has a tendency to rotate. Its face rotates open on a toe shot and it rotates closed on a heel shot. This off center impact causes the clubhead to rotate around its own COG and not around the golf shaft as most think. The center of gravity of the clubhead is usually located on or very close to the clubfaces horizontal geometric center. This is obviously where we all try and hit the ball because it produces the most solid hit, solid feel and best distance.

Comparing two types of clubs:
1)Traditional shape muscle back iron with much of its weight placed near the middle of the clubhead.
2)Modern longer blade length cavity back iron with more of its weight distributed in the toe and heel areas.

[b]The MOI’s of these two irons will be different[/b].
1)Traditional shape muscle back would prob have an MOI (25% & up) lower than the cavity back
2)Modern longer blade length cavity back iron would go straighter(more backspin!!!), fly higher, and prob a little farther on avg."

MOI is the trendy word describing workability

[pocketfulladoubles]

Hoganfan, you are correct. All "classical" motion has 6 degrees of freedon, 3 translation, and 3 rotation. Titleist's argument is based on the sum of the rotational vectors. On topic though, it sure feels like I can control the amount of fade and draw better with a blade. Maybe placebo, it just doesn't feel like it...

[mat562]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='819553' date='Dec 10 2007, 08:48 PM']Here's an alternative theory:

Conventional irons, aka "blades," have the Cg of the clubhead positioned higher than cavity backed irons (which are often heavily sole weighted). Very, very good players, because they hit down on the ball more with a steeper clubhead angle of attack (why their divots bottom out further in front of the ball) and more forward shaft lean, typically hit the ball higher on the clubface than poor players. The higher Cg of blades correlates with a higher sweet spot. Now, this isn't a huge difference, maybe one groove at most I'd think (can look this up on Maltby's site). Therefore, to a good player a blade may feel more solid while a cavity back might feel a little clunky (because they consistently hit them above the sweet spot), while to a poor player the opposite is true (even if struck in the center of the face). So many very good players prefer the feel of a blade. The higher Cg, also allows them to hit lower trajectory shots "on command" without hitting them so thin that they feel super clanky. The better player who prefers blades then correlates that to being "more workable" even if there's little difference in the ability to shape shots side to side.[/quote]

That may be the best description of something I've been struggling to explain for years, ever.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='mat562' post='820819' date='Dec 11 2007, 06:54 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='819553' date='Dec 10 2007, 08:48 PM']Here's an alternative theory:

Conventional irons, aka "blades," have the Cg of the clubhead positioned higher than cavity backed irons (which are often heavily sole weighted). Very, very good players, because they hit down on the ball more with a steeper clubhead angle of attack (why their divots bottom out further in front of the ball) and more forward shaft lean, typically hit the ball higher on the clubface than poor players. The higher Cg of blades correlates with a higher sweet spot. Now, this isn't a huge difference, maybe one groove at most I'd think (can look this up on Maltby's site). Therefore, to a good player a blade may feel more solid while a cavity back might feel a little clunky (because they consistently hit them above the sweet spot), while to a poor player the opposite is true (even if struck in the center of the face). So many very good players prefer the feel of a blade. The higher Cg, also allows them to hit lower trajectory shots "on command" without hitting them so thin that they feel super clanky. The better player who prefers blades then correlates that to being "more workable" even if there's little difference in the ability to shape shots side to side.[/quote]

That may be the best description of something I've been struggling to explain for years, ever.


[/quote]
Why thank you, Mat562! Just a hypothesis of mine at this point. Would have to do some research to validate it. One more "potential research project" to add the pile! Don't think it would take much more than a bunch of golfers of varying abilities and some impact tape or high speed video of impact.

[mat562]

Makes sense to me.

As a taker of Woosnam-esque divots, I'm always more comfortable with a blade through impact and the feel I get - which seems to tally with the 'high-on-the-face' theory.

The Nikes I'm currently hitting are a much lower muscle than the 681s and MP14s I bagged previously; and feel solid with my shallower strike that I've been working to achieve in recent times.

The maths add up.

I'm a believer.