Help - No clue where to go from here (unconventional build)

[doops411]

I've been lurking around here for a while, and realized I'm in over my head. Long story short, I played a lot of golf when I was younger (down to a 1 hdcp in high school). Took about a 10 year break, and in an attempt to recently get back in the game, started receiving instructions and a fitting from the same person. Going back to the fitter for adjustments is not an option (long story). I need to get back to something close to standard specs and have no idea where to begin. I love the idea of MOI matching (read the posts from Howard_Jones) but have no idea where I should begin. Specs are posted below - these clubs also have CP2 wrap jumbos on them and lead tape on the heads.  I'd love to know if anyone can recognize what the fitter was attempting to accomplish (maybe some version of MOI matching). They are very long and very upright. Short irons and wedges are just impossible. Chip shots are even being pulled left. Any input and advice will be great appreciated. I've thought about going down to midsize on say the 6 iron, and choking down, removing lead tape etc and seeing what happens. Really just have no clue what to do but then end goal is to adjust these back somewhere close to standard in some sort of MOI matched set so I can begin to work on improving my swing. I feel like these clubs are making the improvements next to impossible. FWIW, according to golfpride website my hands measure for a midsize grip. I'm about 5' 10" - these are 919 tour irons.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

3 iron (23 deg loft), 65.5 lie, 39.75", c3.3 sw

4 iron (26 def loft), 66 lie, 39.25", c3.3 sw

5 iron (30 deg loft), 67 lie, 38.75", c4.0 sw

6 iron (34 deg loft), 68 lie, 38.25", c5.0 sw

7 iron (38 deg loft), 68.50+ lie, 37.875", c6.0 sw

8 iron (38 deg loft), 69 lie, 37.5", c7.1 sw

9 iron (46 deg loft) 69.00+ lie, 37.125", c8.5 sw

T20 - 48 (50 deg loft) 69.5 lie, 36.75", d1.0 sw

T20 - 52 (54 deg loft), 69.5 lie, 36.50", d1.8 sw

T20 - 58 (58 deg loft), 69.25 lie, 36.50", d2.3 sw

 

These aren't typos. I had a spreadsheet I couldn't figure out how to insert. Shafts are KBS Tour 90s, hard stepped. Wedges are "straight in" (whatever that means).

 

[Howard_Jones]

WOW...how did this lie angle become like this? Hardly no head can be bended that much without damage, so you should start with a lie angle check, using the ball marker/sharpie test.

Next would be your grips. If the plan is to use a smaller/lighter grip, DO THAT before you move on.

Depending on your age and strength, a shaft like KBS Tour 90 might be too light, and no matter how much we compensate with higher SW or grip weights to get total weight right, we can never make it to feel right. (Read my DIY driver tune up to be able to tune shaft weight to see if that is good or not)

Before we can MOI match a set, we need a starting point from a club that actually works good, and it sounds like non of yours does, so we are not ready to go that direction before we have found the right grip/(grip weight) and shaft weight.

The easy way to MOI match a set is to go 3/8" between clubs, since the classic 4/8" most often makes a need to reduce head weight in the short end, and thats not really a DIY job (but can be done if you have the needed tools and skills)

So...Start with the club thats normally (or should have been) your best iron, change the GRIP, and take a lie angle check. Then move on to the DIY driver tune up, and follow the instructions there so you can simulate a higher shaft weight, and head weight to find BOTH those that works the best for you.

When done, TAG me and we can take it from there. (you ONLY need to do this for ONE club, the irons thats normally or should have been your favorite, leave the others as they are for now.)
 

 

[Fairway14]

7 hours ago, doops411 said:

 I'd love to know if anyone can recognize what the fitter was attempting to accomplish (maybe some version of MOI matching). They are very long and very upright.

 

3 iron (23 deg loft), 65.5 lie, 39.75", c3.3 sw

4 iron (26 def loft), 66 lie, 39.25", c3.3 sw

5 iron (30 deg loft), 67 lie, 38.75", c4.0 sw

6 iron (34 deg loft), 68 lie, 38.25", c5.0 sw

7 iron (38 deg loft), 68.50+ lie, 37.875", c6.0 sw

8 iron (38 deg loft), 69 lie, 37.5", c7.1 sw

9 iron (46 deg loft) 69.00+ lie, 37.125", c8.5 sw

T20 - 48 (50 deg loft) 69.5 lie, 36.75", d1.0 sw

T20 - 52 (54 deg loft), 69.5 lie, 36.50", d1.8 sw

T20 - 58 (58 deg loft), 69.25 lie, 36.50", d2.3 sw

 

These aren't typos. I had a spreadsheet I couldn't figure out how to insert. Shafts are KBS Tour 90s, hard stepped. Wedges are "straight in" (whatever that means).

 

 

During the fitting did you strike shots with club (s)  similar to the specs of your new fitted set ? 

Also, the SW numbers listed seem 6 to 9 points too low for a set with the .5" to 1" over length shafts listed. Did you use a swing weight scale to learn the swing weights of your clubs ?

[doops411]

Thanks Howard - will work on that this week. Here is the spec sheet I was given. I have seen another spec sheet from same fitter - 3 iron at 65 lie angle up to 67 on wedges. Also - I know of 4-5 other people who were fitted in the same manner and have since moved on to more standard clubs. Good golfers too. These are Mizuno 919 tour heads.

 

 

[doops411]

Also - should I pull lead tape off all the heads also?

 

Varying amounts on irons/wedges (3 iron doesn't have any) 

 

Thanks

[TwistedSister]

How did you get the SW that low in that length?

[doops411]

From what I’ve read on here, I think the sw scale is being manipulated by the jumbo grips (80 grams) and extra wrap of tape.

[RobS14526]

You said that you were receiving instruction from the person that did your fitting, correct?

 

what were/are they having you work on in your swing? Does the person have an “out of the box” swing theory that they are trying to employ? The clubs make no sense to me at that length/lie.

[doops411]

Yes

 

and yes, out of the box. Super strong grip, minimal rotation, very “armsy” type swing

[RobS14526]

It sounds like a really bad experience. At this point I think I would buy an old used set of irons in standard specs that have already been deprecated, go out and try to play like you did before you gave the game up. 

 

After the reset, take your JPX’s to a competent fitter and work through a rebuild. 

 

Oh, and find a new instructor!

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, doops411 said:

From what I’ve read on here, I think the sw scale is being manipulated by the jumbo grips (80 grams) and extra wrap of tape.

Grip weight is not specified (or did i miss it?), buy yes, its heavy jumbo grips (at least 70 grams), and its "1 head longer", bent weak (9 bent to PW), and a silly upright lie angle as a sum.

[born4golf77]

25 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Grip weight is not specified (or did i miss it?), buy yes, its heavy jumbo grips (at least 70 grams), and its "1 head longer", bent weak (9 bent to PW), and a silly upright lie angle as a sum.

Cp2 jumbos (mentioned in og post) weigh 80gm

[BREWMASTER95060]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:25 PM, doops411 said:

Thanks in advance.

 

3 iron (23 deg loft), 65.5 lie, 39.75", c3.3 sw

4 iron (26 def loft), 66 lie, 39.25", c3.3 sw

5 iron (30 deg loft), 67 lie, 38.75", c4.0 sw

6 iron (34 deg loft), 68 lie, 38.25", c5.0 sw

7 iron (38 deg loft), 68.50+ lie, 37.875", c6.0 sw

8 iron (38 deg loft), 69 lie, 37.5", c7.1 sw

9 iron (46 deg loft) 69.00+ lie, 37.125", c8.5 sw

T20 - 48 (50 deg loft) 69.5 lie, 36.75", d1.0 sw

T20 - 52 (54 deg loft), 69.5 lie, 36.50", d1.8 sw

T20 - 58 (58 deg loft), 69.25 lie, 36.50", d2.3 sw

Did he change your grip?
Was he trying to get you on a single plane?
Are you over 6 ' ?

[Jace_bkr]

I’d venture a guess that the clubs are too compromised to be bent back to anything standard but could be wrong. 

[doops411]

Howard - since I’ve gotten this set and tried to work through them, the general theme I’ve always had is that my short irons and wedges are WAY too upright. As the loft increases, it seems to get worse. Not necessarily contact, but start line and ball flight. Starts left, and is working hard left even with centered strikes. In turn, my “favorite club” out of this set has been the 3 iron. Ironically, I’ve hit some of the best long iron shots of my life with this club. But when it’s bad, it’s bad. Does it matter if the longest club is my favorite or should I try to work somewhere into the middle of the set to start?
 

Didn’t realize I had a max number of posts in a day, so here are answers to some of the other questions posted:

 

I was basically fit into a set that this person fits everyone into. I later found this out - pretty much fits everyone the same and then says, “swing like this”. Went from standard grips to jumbos, and a strong grip to “you can’t have too strong of a grip”

 

I guess it could be some version of single plane, although that term was never thrown out there. And I’m 5’ 10” to answer your other question.

 

Another thing to add about the swing weights - I was doing some digging online and then remembered this person mentioning something about mizuno offering lighter weight heads, which allow for a little more upright bending according to mizuno. Not sure how much lighter these heads are but I’d assume that also adds to the lighter swing weights along with other points Howard mentioned.

 

Thanks for all the input - going to regrip a couple today and hope to hit the range by Wednesday. Maybe 1 midsize and 1 standard and see how it goes.

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

6 hours ago, doops411 said:

this out - pretty much fits everyone the same and then says, “swing like this”. Went from standard grips to jumbos, and a strong grip to “you can’t have too strong of a grip”

 

I guess it could be some version of single plane, although that term was never thrown out there. And I’m 5’ 10” to answer your other question.

WOW!
 

[doops411]

Had some rain this week so was finally able to get to the range to try out a few things. Changed 7 iron (8 iron loft) to a midsize mcc (59 grams) from prior cp2 jumbo (81 grams). Left the lead tape on the head as it was and choked down appx 1”. Took a few shots to get used to but I then started hitting it just great. Didn’t think the weight of the grip could make that much of a difference, maybe it’s the size, but being able to feel the head more sure helped. I added some weight to head, didn’t like it. Also tried adding appx 8 grams to shaft “balance point” and didn’t like it either. Back to original set up with midsize grip and choking down as only change it was great. Moved on to sharpie test and was pretty surprised. Nothing but vertical lines. I’m really confused now…had the clubs lie checked and it actually exceeded 68.5. 
 

Maybe it’s possible that I developed the compensations in the my swing to allow me to hit such upright clubs? Grass was real sparse on range so to get clear indications I had to tee it up (marker wouldn’t show from direct hits off the turf, and we don’t have mats). 
 

I have a flight scope mevo, and the data I was getting off of it was best I ever have for this club. I’d be very pleased hitting it like that on the course. Does choking down make it effectively flatter?
 

love the midsized grips and don’t see a need to try standard as I measure for midsize. 
 

how should I proceed? I still think the lie angles need to be flattened at least a few degrees if I intend to change my swing to be shallower and start rotating more. 

Thanks

 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

Lie angle seems to be just fine, and yes, when you lower your hands on the grip, the club head comes closer to us, and "effective" lie angle goes down. Just think of a standard set where the lie angle has a progression of 0.5* UP for each club shorter. If you lower your hands on the grip by 1 inch, you compensate for about 1* on lie angle.

Up right lie = high hands at impact, so the higher the hands goes, the more up right lie do we need to get lie angle neutral at impact.

Look at this photos who is address to impact. Its very visible that the shaft angle become steeper from address to impact. Depending on how much we change this angle is what we adjust by bending static lie (to drop is included, but out hands at impact is the dominating factor.

We can see that at address the head is "toe up", but due to toe drop and hand position at impact it becomes neutral.

[BREWMASTER95060]

3 hours ago, doops411 said:

Changed 7 iron (8 iron loft) to a midsize mcc (59 grams) from prior cp2 jumbo (81 grams). Left the lead tape on the head as it was and choked down appx 1”.

Can I get a length and total weight and balance point?
please. And on the grip 2" down from the butt a diameter measurement.
Please.

[doops411]

Thanks Howard - so in order to MOI match to this club without getting too technical, would I just find the finished length and space 3/8” throughout the irons? And how would I handle the wedges with different head weights then irons?

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

31 minutes ago, doops411 said:

Thanks Howard - so in order to MOI match to this club without getting too technical, would I just find the finished length and space 3/8” throughout the irons? And how would I handle the wedges with different head weights then irons?

 

 

First of all, 3/8" is only 1 of TONS of options here.
Wedges? if you play PW and GW as if it was #10 and #11 irons (full swing mostly), thay can be included as if they was irons, but still using the classic 2/8" between clubs to prevent going to short. (0.33 or 1/3 SWP progression for clubs at 2/8")

Here is some suggestions for alternative play lengths for DIY MOI matching.
They DEMAND a #9 iron that works as it should or as starting club, so its the resistance the #9 iron has we duplicate to the others.

The fast and dirty, is to go 10.7 mm....then its butt cut, new grips and out to play, NO adjustment of head weight is needed at all. (for sets that starts as 4/8" bewteen clubs and all has the same SW value now, what ever that value is)

All specs you need to know is in this chart, but feel free to ask if anything is unclear
 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[doops411]

Ok - so I guess the only way I’d be able to do mine would be to take all lead tape off and cut to length considering my swing weights are already all different due to varying amounts of lead tape, lengths and lie angles?

 

[Howard_Jones]

16 minutes ago, doops411 said:

Ok - so I guess the only way I’d be able to do mine would be to take all lead tape off and cut to length considering my swing weights are already all different due to varying amounts of lead tape, lengths and lie angles?

 

Is there a club in that set that feels just right now?
Since the set is made with heads 7 grams lighter, it might not be needed to change play lengths as all. We do that to eliminate the need to remove weight from the longest clubs, and sure, its easier to play 3/8" than 4/8", but for a MOI match is actually the weight removal issue that motivates to change play lengths, but in your case it might not be needed.

4/8" sets and MOI match using the SW scale has a SWP progression of 0.66 or 2/3 of a SWP from club to club instead of 0.5 as we use on 3/8" sets.

[doops411]

Yes - I’d say that 7 iron right now that I was choking down on. But my lengths are not not equally spaced progression in the set right now. That’s whats throwing me off.

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, doops411 said:

Yes - I’d say that 7 iron right now that I was choking down on. But my lengths are not not equally spaced progression in the set right now. That’s whats throwing me off.

Yes i can see that now after i looked them over again, but thats the easy part to fix.
- What kind of club making tools do you have available?
 

[doops411]

None personally - but have a local golf shop that has had to do this before for some other guys from same fitter. Very reasonable prices in my opinion - $35/set for any loft/lie adjustments, and $5/club (plus grip cost) for cut down and regrip.

[s515_15]

Not really sure how these were even fit like that. Mizuno would have a hard time even bending them that much from their custom department. Mizuno generally matches swingweights from the factory with tip weights. Their shaft optimizer would have told you the shaft you needed (any legit mizuno fitter would have one) and you'd get fit for lie angle as well of which verrrry few people would be that upright, and why would he have swingweight all over the place. Makes no sense. Every club would have a different feel. And you'd have been checked for grip size too based on your hand measurement. If I was taken care of this poorly I'd start by contacting mizuno directly and get them to fix the issue. This fitter/instructor sounds like hes a couple cans short of a six pack.

[Howard_Jones]

14 hours ago, s515_15 said:

Not really sure how these were even fit like that. Mizuno would have a hard time even bending them that much from their custom department. Mizuno generally matches swingweights from the factory with tip weights. Their shaft optimizer would have told you the shaft you needed (any legit mizuno fitter would have one) and you'd get fit for lie angle as well of which verrrry few people would be that upright, and why would he have swingweight all over the place. Makes no sense. Every club would have a different feel. And you'd have been checked for grip size too based on your hand measurement. If I was taken care of this poorly I'd start by contacting mizuno directly and get them to fix the issue. This fitter/instructor sounds like hes a couple cans short of a six pack.

Mizuno is not part of this at all, its a local man who has done the mods, and the OP wants to change specs away from that concept, so Mizuno want fix it, they did not make it like this in the first place.

To me it looks like  a De-Chambeau inspired set up, but not as single length.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Howard_Jones