Tour issue s400 vs dynamic gold wedge flex

[Alan Pllu]

Other than weight sorting is there any difference that would be noticeable with a wedge with a tour issue s400 hitting back to back with a dynamic gold wedge flex shaft? 

 

I have T20 in 49 and 52 and love them49 has just been fitted with 120 x100 and the 52 has ti s400. I had a 56/14 and 60/10 earlier in the season but wasn't getting on with the bounce on them. I could feel the bounce on the 56 on full shots and the 60 I couldn't open it up, I had no confidence with the way it looked when opened to try hit a flop shot which isn't something I ever struggle with. 

 

I changed them out for mg2 tw 56 and 60 but I don't like them as much as I like the t20, I feel the t20 does better in morning dew conditions that I mainly play in. 

 

I have been looking for mo ths for some decent condition t20's in 56/10 and 60/06 and there has been nothing coming up. I have just found a couple but they have wedge flex shafts not ti s400, I'm thinking that I'm going to feel no difference between them but just looking for confirmation that I am right before I pull the trigger. 

 

The other option is getting a 54 or 58 with lower bounce and the ti s400 and bending to suit. 

[Cwebb]

58 minutes ago, Alan Pllu said:

Other than weight sorting is there any difference that would be noticeable with a wedge with a tour issue s400 hitting back to back with a dynamic gold wedge flex shaft? 

 

 

No

[Howard_Jones]

13 hours ago, Alan Pllu said:

Other than weight sorting is there any difference that would be noticeable with a wedge with a tour issue s400 hitting back to back with a dynamic gold wedge flex shaft? 

 

I have T20 in 49 and 52 and love them49 has just been fitted with 120 x100 and the 52 has ti s400. I had a 56/14 and 60/10 earlier in the season but wasn't getting on with the bounce on them. I could feel the bounce on the 56 on full shots and the 60 I couldn't open it up, I had no confidence with the way it looked when opened to try hit a flop shot which isn't something I ever struggle with. 

 

I changed them out for mg2 tw 56 and 60 but I don't like them as much as I like the t20, I feel the t20 does better in morning dew conditions that I mainly play in. 

 

I have been looking for mo ths for some decent condition t20's in 56/10 and 60/06 and there has been nothing coming up. I have just found a couple but they have wedge flex shafts not ti s400, I'm thinking that I'm going to feel no difference between them but just looking for confirmation that I am right before I pull the trigger. 

 

The other option is getting a 54 or 58 with lower bounce and the ti s400 and bending to suit. 

The shaft from production is the same, and sortet into S200 / S300 / S400, but "wedge flex" can be any of the 3, you will have to remove the grip and look at the screen code to know.

Since the shaft is the same, and higher weight means thicker shaft walls, S400 is also a tad stiffer than S200 for that reason.

If you want the weight and the slightly stronger flex S400 has to offer, DONT go Tour issue, but standard GOLD sorting.

S400 Tour Issue is to the light end of S400, S400 Gold is most often to the heavy end of S400 since there is a huge demand for Tour issue and the shafts from 131.5 to 132.5 grams most often gets the TI label, and those above 131.5 gets the GOLD label

Its a totally waist of money to use S400 Tour Issue for wedge, use the GOLD version to get the max out of your money. 
 

[Howard_Jones]

Look at this chart for Constant wgt shafts as GRAMS PR. INCH and you get the picture

If we have a S200 that can be 127 grams at 37", we have 3.43 grams pr inch
That "wall thickness" is the same as a S400 #6 iron shaft, but with the tip length of a #9

S400 Gold can be 133.5 grams, or 3.60 grams pr inch, while S200 can be down at 3.42, or almost like a S400 #5 iron shaft.

So, "wedge flex" can be any of the 3 (S200/S300/S400), and you will have to pull the grip to find the screen code to know. IF you cant find a screen code, we can simply do the math by using actual weight (no grips or tape) / actual length = grams pr inch, and the n use this chart to identify what sub flex we have.

 

[Valtiel]

To add to what Howard said above, "Wedge Flex" in my experience are predominantly S200s. Sometimes they are S300, and VERY rarely are they actually S400 without that being more explicitly advertised.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by Valtiel

[Alan Pllu]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Look at this chart for Constant wgt shafts as GRAMS PR. INCH and you get the picture

If we have a S200 that can be 127 grams at 37", we have 3.43 grams pr inch
That "wall thickness" is the same as a S400 #6 iron shaft, but with the tip length of a #9

S400 Gold can be 133.5 grams, or 3.60 grams pr inch, while S200 can be down at 3.42, or almost like a S400 #5 iron shaft.

So, "wedge flex" can be any of the 3 (S200/S300/S400), and you will have to pull the grip to find the screen code to know. IF you cant find a screen code, we can simply do the math by using actual weight (no grips or tape) / actual length = grams pr inch, and the n use this chart to identify what sub flex we have.

 

Awesome thanks Howard. 

[Alan Pllu]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

To add to what Howard said above, "Wedge Flex" in my experience are predominantly S200s. Sometimes they are S300, and VERY rarely are they actually S400 without that being more explicitly advertised.  

I thought it would be S200 for wedge flex, from what I have read online that seems to be the general consensus is anything with a dynamic gold wedge sticker is S200. 

 

I know I like the TI S400 as that's what is in my wedges just now and I get on with them really well, I can't hit the ones with the wedge flex before buying as they are online and miles away from me so taking a leap into the unknown if I buy them. Just wondering if I will notice any difference in feel between the 2 shafts? 

[Howard_Jones]

13 minutes ago, Alan Pllu said:

I thought it would be S200 for wedge flex, from what I have read online that seems to be the general consensus is anything with a dynamic gold wedge sticker is S200. 

 

I know I like the TI S400 as that's what is in my wedges just now and I get on with them really well, I can't hit the ones with the wedge flex before buying as they are online and miles away from me so taking a leap into the unknown if I buy them. Just wondering if I will notice any difference in feel between the 2 shafts? 

Yes you will, if we put S200 (if thats the actual shaft) up against S400, we have half a flex as difference or in the area of "Soft stepped 1.5" due to wall thickness difference.

[Stuart_G]

44 minutes ago, Alan Pllu said:

I thought it would be S200 for wedge flex, from what I have read online that seems to be the general consensus is anything with a dynamic gold wedge sticker is S200.

 

That's a common - but not accurate perception.   According to True Temper, s300 is frequently used as well.  It all depends on what the club OEM wants to use.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's a common - but not accurate perception.   According to True Temper, s300 is frequently used as well.  It all depends on what the club OEM wants to use.

Before 2010, we could expect Titleist Vokeys to have all 3 options like this:

GW - S200
SW - S300
LW - S400

If its still like that, i dont know, but it was common back then,

[Cwebb]

5 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Yes you will, if we put S200 (if thats the actual shaft) up against S400, we have half a flex as difference or in the area of "Soft stepped 1.5" due to wall thickness difference.

 

I have to disagree.  A DG 'S' flex that happens to be a few grams lighter than another one, is not a "half flex" difference in flex

[Howard_Jones]

20 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

I have to disagree.  A DG 'S' flex that happens to be a few grams lighter than another one, is not a "half flex" difference in flex

You can disagree all you like but for DG 0.89 grams = 1 CPM so we say 1 gram is 1 CPM and if its 5 grams difference from S200 to S400 you have 5 CPM or half a flex. (127 vs 132 grams)

Look at KBS, its the same thing...
They have the same step pattern for ALL flex models, ONLY shaft wall thickness change.
Its 5 grams and 5 CPM or "half a flex" from R to R+, another 5 grams and 5 CPM from R+ to S, another 5 grams and 5 CPM from S to S+, and another 5 grams and 5 CPM from S+ to X.

So, the rule of thumb is, when step pattern is the same 1 gram = 1 CPM and 10 CPM is a full flex.

[Alan Pllu]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

You can disagree all you like but for DG 0.89 grams = 1 CPM so we say 1 gram is 1 CPM and if its 5 grams difference from S200 to S400 you have 5 CPM or half a flex. (127 vs 132 grams)

Look at KBS, its the same thing...
They have the same step pattern for ALL flex models, ONLY shaft wall thickness change.
Its 5 grams and 5 CPM or "half a flex" from R to R+, another 5 grams and 5 CPM from R+ to S, another 5 grams and 5 CPM from S to S+, and another 5 grams and 5 CPM from S+ to X.

So, the rule of thumb is, when step pattern is the same 1 gram = 1 CPM and 10 CPM is a full flex.

Thats put the purchase in a different light then, I get on really really well with the S400 in both my mizuno T20 and taylormade mg2 tw that makes me think the shaft is the key, I had wedges last season with kbs hi rev and my short game was horrible with them. 

 

Reluctant to pull the trigger on these ones now with the information you have provided. Think I'll keep looking for something with the same shaft I'm playing then. 

 

Thanks again Howard you have saved me from making a potential mistake and wasting money on something that might not suit. 

[Cwebb]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

You can disagree all you like but for DG 0.89 grams = 1 CPM so we say 1 gram is 1 CPM and if its 5 grams difference from S200 to S400 you have 5 CPM or half a flex. (127 vs 132 grams)

Look at KBS, its the same thing...
They have the same step pattern for ALL flex models, ONLY shaft wall thickness change.
Its 5 grams and 5 CPM or "half a flex" from R to R+, another 5 grams and 5 CPM from R+ to S, another 5 grams and 5 CPM from S to S+, and another 5 grams and 5 CPM from S+ to X.

So, the rule of thumb is, when step pattern is the same 1 gram = 1 CPM and 10 CPM is a full flex.

 

The problem with this theory is that if you actually bend profile measure a DG S200 vs an S400, you won't find a "half flex" difference through the shafts

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

The problem with this theory is that if you actually bend profile measure a DG S200 vs an S400, you won't find a "half flex" difference through the shafts

 

The problem with that viewpoint is that first of all,  while there might be many different definitions of flex based on butt frequency, there are no definitions of flex for anywhere else over the rest of the shaft profile.   So it's pointless to try to look elsewhere to judge flex (and I mean "flex", not stiffness feel).  

 

Secondly, it's only when working with the exact same shaft profile (as is the case with the s200/300/400), that the butt frequency is actually useful as a measurement for flex and even stiffness feel.   So there is no need to look at the rest of the shaft in this particular case.

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Cwebb]

17 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The problem with that viewpoint is that first of all,  while there might be many different definitions of flex based on butt frequency, there are no definitions of flex for anywhere else over the rest of the shaft profile.   So it's pointless to try to look elsewhere to judge flex (and I mean "flex", not stiffness feel).  

 

Secondly, it's only when working with the exact same shaft profile (as is the case with the s200/300/400), that the butt frequency is actually useful as a measurement for flex and even stiffness feel.   So there is no need to look at the rest of the shaft in this particular case.

 

 

When we actually measure Dynamic Gold shafts, we don't always find that a 1g difference in weight is equal to 1 cpm in frequency.  We certainly don't find that most of them that are 4-5g difference in weight are 4-5cpm difference in flex.

 

Regarding the whole profile, I've measured S200's that are actually slightly stiffer in sections compared to an S400.  Point here is that it's random slight variations within the manufacturing tolerance.  Since the original DG shaft was not designed to use precise wall thickness differences as a way to vary stiffness within the same flex.

 

Based on what I've measured, a 128g DG 'S' is not a "half flex" softer than a 132g DG 'S'

[Howard_Jones]

14 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

When we actually measure Dynamic Gold shafts, we don't always find that a 1g difference in weight is equal to 1 cpm in frequency.  We certainly don't find that most of them that are 4-5g difference in weight are 4-5cpm difference in flex.

 

Regarding the whole profile, I've measured S200's that are actually slightly stiffer in sections compared to an S400.  Point here is that it's random slight variations within the manufacturing tolerance.  Since the original DG shaft was not designed to use precise wall thickness differences as a way to vary stiffness within the same flex.

 

Based on what I've measured, a 128g DG 'S' is not a "half flex" softer than a 132g DG 'S'

Look at this chart for CPM slope of different True Temper models.
What do you SEE here?
Is there a "pattern"



All this shafts is delivered with either 0.5" shorter tip section as Constant weight, or with a tip trim instruction of 0.5" between clubs.

If we take the AVERAGE for Constant wgt shafts we have 5.68 CPM between clubs
If we look at the Descending wgt shafts, the average is 4.22 CPM
The difference is 1.46 CPM, so where do you think that came from if its NOT progressive thicker shaft walls?

If we soft step a shaft once, we loose weight equal to 0.5 inch due to thinner shaft walls. (its not really our butt cut who removes that weight, since length is the same after we cut off the 0.5", so its THINNER shaft walls who cause the actual weight loss.



The rule of thumb who say SS1 = 4 CPM is for DESCENDING WGT shafts, NOT Constant wgt who moves MORE due to the combination of 4/8" more tip, 4/8" shorter butt, AND thinner shaft walls.

For steel shafts with the same butt, step pattern and tip section, 1 gram is average 1 CPM, just like we see on KBS Tour....and the same goes for S200/S300/S400....

Edited October 29, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Cwebb]

7 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Look at this chart for CPM slope of different True Temper models.
What do you SEE here?
Is there a "pattern"



All this shafts is delivered with either 0.5" shorter tip section as Constant weight, or with a tip trim instruction of 0.5" between clubs.

If we take the AVERAGE for Constant wgt shafts we have 5.68 CPM between clubs
If we look at the Descending wgt shafts, the average is 4.22 CPM
The difference is 1.46 CPM, so where do you think that came from if its NOT progressive thicker shaft walls?

If we soft step a shaft once, we loose weight equal to 0.5 inch due to thinner shaft walls. (its not really our butt cut who removes that weight, since length is the same after we cut off the 0.5", so its THINNER shaft walls who cause the actual weight loss.



The rule of thumb who say SS1 = 4 CPM is for DESCENDING WGT shafts, NOT Constant wgt who moves MORE due to the combination of 4/8" more tip, 4/8" shorter butt, AND thinner shaft walls.

For steel shafts with the same butt, step pattern and tip section, 1 gram is average 1 CPM, just like we see on KBS Tour....and the same goes for S200/S300/S400....

 

When we bend profile measure a 132g DG 'S' flex that is soft-stepped twice, we find a different shaft vs what we find in a 128g DG 'S' flex that is not soft-stepped.

 

In Dynamic Gold, if we really want something that plays "half a flex" softer, go with a soft-step twice

[Howard_Jones]

23 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

When we bend profile measure a 132g DG 'S' flex that is soft-stepped twice, we find a different shaft vs what we find in a 128g DG 'S' flex that is not soft-stepped.

 

In Dynamic Gold, if we really want something that plays "half a flex" softer, go with a soft-step twice

YES a S400 soft stepped twice would have 1 inch longer tip, and 1 inch shorter butt, so it CANT be equal to S200, and it was not the subject of debate either, but how far apart S200 and S400 was as the same # when weight difference is 5 grams, and that is about 5 CPM and half a flex if we use 10 CPM as 1 flex class.