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Wedge Shafts - cut down longer ones or buy them at wedge length confusion


jjinsa
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Hi everyone, 

 

I have read this now a few times and it goes something like this - Some people like to use the same shaft for their irons as an 8i Shaft or 9i shaft, but in their wedges (so soft stepped X number of times)  As an example, for my understanding: In order for it to be soft stepped, I understand you take a 6i head and play it on a 5i shaft for example - but does this mean you also play it with the 5i shaft length?  Or you trim it the 5i shaft to 6i length?  My confusion lies in the fact that if you trim a shaft, are you not stiffening it, so trimming a 5i shaft to 6i length, makes it the same as a 6i shaft - then what is the point?  So to take it to the wedge reference, are people who play 8/9i shafts in their wedges, playing them with the longer shaft?

 

I have X100 T.I in my irons, and would like to at least put the same shaft in my 50 and 54 wedges, which are mainly for full shots, and the 58 for a mix of partial and full I can consider something like S400.  So for the 50 and 54 if I want to put X100, do I buy them already as wedge lengths (or is PW the shortest you can buy?), or do you buy any length you want and just cut them to desired length and effectively have the same thing as if you bought a wedge length.  I don't want to have 8/9i length shafts in my wedges, I like them short with more control. 

 

Further to this, to shorten my yardage range on wedges, could I play the same length shaft in all 3 wedges, 50, 54 and 58?  To decrease the yardage between them?

Cleveland Classic 9.0deg, Aldila R.I.P phenom 70g X-Stiff

Cleveland CG16 Tour, DG X100 Tour Issue

Cobra Trust Rusty 50, 54, 58, DG S200

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Shafts get stiffer only when you TIP trim them, not when you BUTT trim them. So an 8 iron shaft installed in a PW is 2x soft stepped as long as you trim the butt (grip) end.  BTW if you order a 37” wedge length raw shaft, you still need to butt trim to length as the installed length is a few inches over standard (35.5” wedge playing length for example).

 

If you buy a parallel tip 41” raw iron shaft, follow the tip trimming instructions for a wedge, then butt trim to length. If you buy a tapered tip, only butt trim.

Edited by 95124hacker
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11 minutes ago, 95124hacker said:

Shafts get stiffer only when you TIP trim them, not when you BUTT trim them. So an 8 iron shaft installed in a PW is 2x soft stepped as long as you trim the butt (grip) end.  BTW if you order a 37” wedge length raw shaft, you still need to butt trim to length as the installed length is a few inches over standard (35.5” wedge playing length for example).

 

If you buy a parallel tip 41” raw iron shaft, follow the tip trimming instructions for a wedge, then butt trim to length. If you buy a tapered tip, only butt trim.

So if butt trimming does nothing, then for Taper Tip you could essentially buy any length you like, and butt trim to any length you like - and it will play to the same stiffness as the length you bought it at?  So a 37" shaft is a 7i length, even if I trimmed the but to 35.5", it will still be 7i stiffness?  I know that each club shaft length gets stiffer as you go down from 3i-PW, so a PW shaft is stiffer than a 3i shaft to compensate for the heavier club head.  

 

So if I wanted my 3 wedges, 50, 54, 58 to all have the same length shaft (say 35,25") and the 50/54 to have same flex as irons, with the 58 slightly less, I could do this:

1. Buy 2 x X100 35,5" shafts, trim by 0,25" and install in the 50 and 54

2. Buy 1 x X100 shaft at 36" (1 x ss) or 36,5" (2 x SS), trim it to 35,25" and install in the 58 deg.  Then it would be an X100 with either 1 or 2 x soft steps, depending if I buy 9i or 8i shaft

 

thanks again! learning every day on here

Cleveland Classic 9.0deg, Aldila R.I.P phenom 70g X-Stiff

Cleveland CG16 Tour, DG X100 Tour Issue

Cobra Trust Rusty 50, 54, 58, DG S200

Cleveland Classic No1 Putter

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1 hour ago, jjinsa said:

So if butt trimming does nothing, then for Taper Tip you could essentially buy any length you like, and butt trim to any length you like - and it will play to the same stiffness as the length you bought it at?  So a 37" shaft is a 7i length, even if I trimmed the but to 35.5", it will still be 7i stiffness?  I know that each club shaft length gets stiffer as you go down from 3i-PW, so a PW shaft is stiffer than a 3i shaft to compensate for the heavier club head.  

 

So if I wanted my 3 wedges, 50, 54, 58 to all have the same length shaft (say 35,25") and the 50/54 to have same flex as irons, with the 58 slightly less, I could do this:

1. Buy 2 x X100 35,5" shafts, trim by 0,25" and install in the 50 and 54

2. Buy 1 x X100 shaft at 36" (1 x ss) or 36,5" (2 x SS), trim it to 35,25" and install in the 58 deg.  Then it would be an X100 with either 1 or 2 x soft steps, depending if I buy 9i or 8i shaft

 

thanks again! learning every day on here


Its not that easy....

Constant weight shafts like Dynamic Gold X100 has THICKER SHAFT WALLS for each iron shorter, not only a shorter tip section. That means if we moved a #6 iron shaft to the #7 head and tip trimmed it 4/8" to get equal tip lenght and butt lenght, we would still have a slightly softer shaft due to shaft wall thickness.

For Dynamic Gold, the #9 is the shortest shaft available, and its 37.00" uncut. We can use it for all clubs from #9 and shorter, but for each club shorter we go softer and softer.

If we wants to keep flex progression into wedges, we can tip trim the #9 shaft about 3/8" before we get insert issues to the hosel. If we wants to tip trim it even more, we will most likely need a reamer job to modify the hosel from 0.355 taper to 0.370 parallel.

For Dynamic Gold shafts, we have a average flex progression of 6 CPM from club to club, so to actually go "1 shaft stronger" we need 6/8" of tip trim, since the response is 1 CPM for each 1/8" on Dynamic Gold.

Tip difference is standard 4/8", so the reason for the need of 6/8" to go "1 shaft stronger" is that we CANT add shaft wall thickens, and compensate for that with 2/8" extra tip trim, so we actually goes 6 CPM stronger or 1 full club. 

That means 3/8" of tip trim is really only "half a iron stronger" or a slight adjustment for feel reasons, not much else, but its not uncommon to tip trim both the PW and the GW 3/8" when we use Dynamic Gold and the player wants to hold back some of the "softening" that happens when we dont have access to a dedicated PW or GW shaft.

Edited by Howard_Jones
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4 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:


Its not that easy....

Constant weight shafts like Dynamic Gold X100 has THICKER SHAFT WALLS for each iron shorter, not only a shorter tip section. That means if we moved a #6 iron shaft to the #7 head and tip trimmed it 4/8" to get equal tip lenght and butt lenght, we would still have a slightly softer shaft due to shaft wall thickness.

For Dynamic Gold, the #9 is the shortest shaft available, and its 37.00" uncut. We can use it for all clubs from #9 and shorter, but for each club shorter we go softer and softer.

If we wants to keep flex progression into wedges, we can tip trim the #9 shaft about 3/8" before we get insert issues to the hosel. If we wants to tip trim it even more, we will most likely need a reamer job to modify the hosel from 0.355 taper to 0.370 parallel.

For Dynamic Gold shafts, we have a average flex progression of 6 CPM from club to club, so to actually go "1 shaft stronger" we need 6/8" of tip trim, since the response is 1 CPM for each 1/8" on Dynamic Gold.

Tip difference is standard 4/8", so the reason for the need of 6/8" to go "1 shaft stronger" is that we CANT add shaft wall thickens, and compensate for that with 2/8" extra tip trim, so we actually goes 6 CPM stronger or 1 full club. 

That means 3/8" of tip trim is really only "half a iron stronger" or a slight adjustment for feel reasons, not much else, but its not uncommon to tip trim both the PW and the GW 3/8" when we use Dynamic Gold and the player wants to hold back some of the "softening" that happens when we dont have access to a dedicated PW or GW shaft.

Thanks Howard.  So much info!

 

So how does this sound:

For the 50 and 54 (to play same as my irons, flex wise).  My PW is currently 35,5".  I want the 50, 54 and 58 to all be 35,25".

1. Buy 2 x X100 37" shafts

2. How much do I trim from the butt and how much from the tip, to make it same flex as my irons and a 35,25" length?

(My answer based on what you said above is - tip trim 3/8" and butt trim 1 and 3/8")

 

For the 58 Degree, also to be 35,25"

1. Buy one X100 shaft @ 37"

2. How much do I trim the tip and the butt to make it equivalent to X100 with 1 x Soft Step, and still 35,25"?

(my answer based on what you said above, is to butt trim it all, so butt trim 1 and 3/4")

 

Then I will have 50, 54 and 58 all 35,25", but with the 50 and 54 at exact same flex as all my irons, but the 58 at 1 x soft step?

 

Please correct me - I am sure I am wrong haha

 

 

Cleveland Classic 9.0deg, Aldila R.I.P phenom 70g X-Stiff

Cleveland CG16 Tour, DG X100 Tour Issue

Cobra Trust Rusty 50, 54, 58, DG S200

Cleveland Classic No1 Putter

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il get back later (on my way out the door), but for short, i dont think you know what you are asking for, since Dynamic gold has a STEEPER flex progression than ALL other models on the marked, and thats why the PW shaft was discontinued, it was simply stronger than most players liked it to be.

But, am getting back later with my suggestion for how we can make a "compromise" and get your wedges to play stronger than strait in, but be prepared for a "head ace", since you are new to all this, and i will have to take you into aspects only advanced club makers is aware of.

 

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50 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

il get back later (on my way out the door), but for short, i dont think you know what you are asking for, since Dynamic gold has a STEEPER flex progression than ALL other models on the marked, and thats why the PW shaft was discontinued, it was simply stronger than most players liked it to be.

But, am getting back later with my suggestion for how we can make a "compromise" and get your wedges to play stronger than strait in, but be prepared for a "head ace", since you are new to all this, and i will have to take you into aspects only advanced club makers is aware of.

 

Haha, thanks Howard... Really appreciate this.

 

Even if there is a "only slightly different to how the rest of irons will play" suggestion that is easier to do, that works as well for me.  

 

Or if you can suggest an alternative of any kind for me, that can get the wedges playing similar to my X100 irons.

 

The guy who is doing it for me says he can measure the frequency of the shaft, and use that to ensure I get to the same flex and feel n the wedges, as compared to on the irons... does this work?

 

One more scenario - the shafts are currently the same length as my PW, as the clubs some 35,5" standard on 50 and 54 on the clubs I have.  They currently have S200 stock shafts.  I ideally want the gap wedges to be 35,25" - so what if I tip trimmed the current shafts by 1/4 of an inch?  That would make it just under half a a club stiffer?  Or even take a half an inch off, which will be a bit more than half a club stiffer, and then my 50, 54 and 58 will all be the same length @ 35.0"

(The 50 and 54 are currently 35,5" and the 58 is 35.0")

 

Edited by jjinsa
More info needed

Cleveland Classic 9.0deg, Aldila R.I.P phenom 70g X-Stiff

Cleveland CG16 Tour, DG X100 Tour Issue

Cobra Trust Rusty 50, 54, 58, DG S200

Cleveland Classic No1 Putter

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First of all, there is NO common standards for how to judge flex, and each shaft DESIGN has a different flex progression from iron to iron. When we look at (what ever shaft model) here DG X 100, "we say" that all shaft in a set 3-PW has "the same flex", but thats not really true.

By nature, the longer the shaft is, the more it will bend, so for that reason alone, a #3 iron shaft will always be softer than a #9 iron shaft, even if they belong to the same set of shafts.

We have 3 WEIGHT systems for shafts.
- Descending weight - All shafts starts from the same "blank" and we tip trim for each club shorter.
- Constant weight (like DG) - where each shaft is individual, with progressive THICKER shaft walls as we go shorter.
- Ascending weight, who has even larger progression vs Constant wgt for shaft wall thickness.

Even if ALL this models "normally" has 0.5" shorter tip section pr club shorter, ACTUAL FLEX SLOPE will be different because of the second factor, Equal or progressive thicker shaft walls as we go shorter.

RIFLE FCM is a DESCENDING weight model who uses BUTT CPM (Cycles Pr Minute) to judge flex, and this shafts has a flex progression as CPM of 4.3 CPM from one iron to the next. This flex system works and feels right for most players.

Dynamic Gold is a "special design" but also a CONSTANT wgt shaft, so we dont only have the 0.5" shorter tip section, but also progressive thicker shaft walls, and for that reason the CPM slope becomes STEEPER than RIFLE FCM, and for DG X100 we have average 6.33 CPM between clubs.

That means when "we say" that DG X100 is equal for FCM 6.8 (RIfles flex system), its a big fat lie, and ONLY the #6 iron will match RIFLEs flex chart. Irons longer than #6 "looks weaker", and irons shorter will look stronger "than they should be", but thats the nature of DG X100 who is COSNTANT WGT vs RIFLE FCM who is Descending weigh.

So, what do this has to do with your wedges you might ask?
If True Temper extended the DG X 100 to offer PW, GW, SW and LW shafts, they would due to both tip length and progression thicker shaft walls become so stiff that nobody wants to play them, since DG is not only a Constant wgt shaft, its DESIGN make the flex progression steeper than all other shafts on the marked, and thats why they no longer offer a PW, customers hardly ever ask for it if they could have it.

SWING WEIGHT and FLEX
- A shaft is designed to have the same SW value for all clubs, or with other words, 7 grams UP pr club shorter. IF we change SW value, we also change flex, and we count 1 SWP as 1 CPM.
Wedges (off the rack) is typically D3 for the GW, and D5 for SW and LW, while irons is typical D2.
That means we soften flex into wedges (SW and LW) with 1/3 of a flex by going up in SW value alone.

3/8" tip trim on DG becomes 3 CPM stronger...can you SEE the connection to SW value?
Right, we really ONLY compensate for those 3 SWP we go up in SW value, BUT ACCEPT that we cant find a shaft with progressive thicker shaft walls for wedge, because that shaft will "feel bad" and be stronger than most players will like.

...Long story short.
To avoid insert issues (and the need for a reamer job), and to avoid shaft that becomes stronger than we like them (due to DGs nature for flex progression), i suggest you tip trim ONLY 3/8 for the GW, then try it off, and ask yourself, do you really want a stronger feel?

If the answer is YES, then you need a reamer to modify the hosel to be able to get full insert, and then the LIMIT for tip trim to 0.370 is 6/8" on Dynamic Gold. In those cases we can either use 2/8" for PW, 4/8" for GW, and 6/8" for the SW, or make them ALL 6/8" shorter tip side.

Sorry for the long story, but since this forum has way more readers than participants, i feel the need to "educate" the readers to under stand this, and WHY we do as we do.

Keep up asking if you feel the need for that.....

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1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

First of all, there is NO common standards for how to judge flex, and each shaft DESIGN has a different flex progression from iron to iron. When we look at (what ever shaft model) here DG X 100, "we say" that all shaft in a set 3-PW has "the same flex", but thats not really true.

By nature, the longer the shaft is, the more it will bend, so for that reason alone, a #3 iron shaft will always be softer than a #9 iron shaft, even if they belong to the same set of shafts.

We have 3 WEIGHT systems for shafts.
- Descending weight - All shafts starts from the same "blank" and we tip trim for each club shorter.
- Constant weight (like DG) - where each shaft is individual, with progressive THICKER shaft walls as we go shorter.
- Ascending weight, who has even larger progression vs Constant wgt for shaft wall thickness.

Even if ALL this models "normally" has 0.5" shorter tip section pr club shorter, ACTUAL FLEX SLOPE will be different because of the second factor, Equal or progressive thicker shaft walls as we go shorter.

RIFLE FCM is a DESCENDING weight model who uses BUTT CPM (Cycles Pr Minute) to judge flex, and this shafts has a flex progression as CPM of 4.3 CPM from one iron to the next. This flex system works and feels right for most players.

Dynamic Gold is a "special design" but also a CONSTANT wgt shaft, so we dont only have the 0.5" shorter tip section, but also progressive thicker shaft walls, and for that reason the CPM slope becomes STEEPER than RIFLE FCM, and for DG X100 we have average 6.33 CPM between clubs.

That means when "we say" that DG X100 is equal for FCM 6.8 (RIfles flex system), its a big fat lie, and ONLY the #6 iron will match RIFLEs flex chart. Irons longer than #6 "looks weaker", and irons shorter will look stronger "than they should be", but thats the nature of DG X100 who is COSNTANT WGT vs RIFLE FCM who is Descending weigh.

So, what do this has to do with your wedges you might ask?
If True Temper extended the DG X 100 to offer PW, GW, SW and LW shafts, they would due to both tip length and progression thicker shaft walls become so stiff that nobody wants to play them, since DG is not only a Constant wgt shaft, its DESIGN make the flex progression steeper than all other shafts on the marked, and thats why they no longer offer a PW, customers hardly ever ask for it if they could have it.

SWING WEIGHT and FLEX
- A shaft is designed to have the same SW value for all clubs, or with other words, 7 grams UP pr club shorter. IF we change SW value, we also change flex, and we count 1 SWP as 1 CPM.
Wedges (off the rack) is typically D3 for the GW, and D5 for SW and LW, while irons is typical D2.
That means we soften flex into wedges (SW and LW) with 1/3 of a flex by going up in SW value alone.

3/8" tip trim on DG becomes 3 CPM stronger...can you SEE the connection to SW value?
Right, we really ONLY compensate for those 3 SWP we go up in SW value, BUT ACCEPT that we cant find a shaft with progressive thicker shaft walls for wedge, because that shaft will "feel bad" and be stronger than most players will like.

...Long story short.
To avoid insert issues (and the need for a reamer job), and to avoid shaft that becomes stronger than we like them (due to DGs nature for flex progression), i suggest you tip trim ONLY 3/8 for the GW, then try it off, and ask yourself, do you really want a stronger feel?

If the answer is YES, then you need a reamer to modify the hosel to be able to get full insert, and then the LIMIT for tip trim to 0.370 is 6/8" on Dynamic Gold. In those cases we can either use 2/8" for PW, 4/8" for GW, and 6/8" for the SW, or make them ALL 6/8" shorter tip side.

Sorry for the long story, but since this forum has way more readers than participants, i feel the need to "educate" the readers to under stand this, and WHY we do as we do.

Keep up asking if you feel the need for that.....

Thank you Howard, understood and super interesting at that.  Appreciate the response.  I am going to try for now, taking 3/8" off the tip of the 50 and 54 (currently @ 35,5", so I am happy to do so) even with their current S200 shaft, to see how it feels.  If I still want it stronger, I will then try the same with an X100, and see how it feels. 

Something I am still not clear on - I can buy 37" 0.355 taper X100's.  I can only take 3/8" off of the tip, for it to still be able to fit in the hosel correctly as per your comments - do I take the rest off the butt end to achieve final length?  

Cleveland Classic 9.0deg, Aldila R.I.P phenom 70g X-Stiff

Cleveland CG16 Tour, DG X100 Tour Issue

Cobra Trust Rusty 50, 54, 58, DG S200

Cleveland Classic No1 Putter

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8 minutes ago, jjinsa said:

Thank you Howard, understood and super interesting at that.  Appreciate the response.  I am going to try for now, taking 3/8" off the tip of the 50 and 54 (currently @ 35,5", so I am happy to do so) even with their current S200 shaft, to see how it feels.  If I still want it stronger, I will then try the same with an X100, and see how it feels. 

Something I am still not clear on - I can buy 37" 0.355 taper X100's.  I can only take 3/8" off of the tip, for it to still be able to fit in the hosel correctly as per your comments - do I take the rest off the butt end to achieve final length?  


YES - Taper tips is normally "butt trim to length only", but here we go a little outside of "the book", because we can, so you start with 3/8" tip trim, insert the shaft to the head, then measure your target play length, mark the shaft butt, and cut.

About play lengths....
- Again its NO common standard in the Golf industry.
Some measure with grips, others without, or to the edge of the grip ex dome, some uses a ruler that follows actual lie angle of the club, some uses a fixed etc.....

That means the specs we see on a OEMS webpage, lets say a play length of 35.00" for a LOB Wedge, will vary in actual length, all depending on what measure method we have. So, when when talk play lengths, its NOT the shafts length, but the shaft with the head attached, + the variables im telling about here...

Do you have a ruler to measure Golf clubs?

 

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26 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:


YES - Taper tips is normally "butt trim to length only", but here we go a little outside of "the book", because we can, so you start with 3/8" tip trim, insert the shaft to the head, then measure your target play length, mark the shaft butt, and cut.

About play lengths....
- Again its NO common standard in the Golf industry.
Some measure with grips, others without, or to the edge of the grip ex dome, some uses a ruler that follows actual lie angle of the club, some uses a fixed etc.....

That means the specs we see on a OEMS webpage, lets say a play length of 35.00" for a LOB Wedge, will vary in actual length, all depending on what measure method we have. So, when when talk play lengths, its NOT the shafts length, but the shaft with the head attached, + the variables im telling about here...

Do you have a ruler to measure Golf clubs?

 

Yes all understood, I do have a specific club length ruler thank you. My GW and SW are half an inch longer than LW, and I do want them all the same, so will take of the 3/8" and see from there.  Appreciate all the help

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Cleveland Classic 9.0deg, Aldila R.I.P phenom 70g X-Stiff

Cleveland CG16 Tour, DG X100 Tour Issue

Cobra Trust Rusty 50, 54, 58, DG S200

Cleveland Classic No1 Putter

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    • 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
      2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club - Tuesday #1
      2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club - Tuesday #2
       
       
      Adam Scott - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Justin Rose - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Collin Morikawa - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Jason Day - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
      Erik Van Rooyen - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
      Matt Jones - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Cam Smith - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Min Kyu - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Joohyung Kim - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
      Lucas Glover - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
      Keegan Bradley - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
       
       
       
      Gary Woodland's new Cameron putter - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
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      • 6 replies
    • 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open WITB Photos- Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here...
       
      Links:
       
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Ian Poulter - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Matt NeSmith - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Doug Ghim - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      New Cameron Las Vegas covers - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      New Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX shafts - 2021 Shriners Hospitals doe Children Open
       
       

       
      • 15 replies

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