Rules Question - Tiger (Dubai)

tbhuskie8 · February 3, 2008

Nothing was said during the broadcast so why does all this matter? He won. It obviously wasn't viewed as a big deal by anyone else.

ericld · February 3, 2008

Was he thumping the green or some fairway area leading up? He is more than welcome to thump the fairway right up to the green.

When it becomes the green which is a surface that the ball will roll across, modifying and repairing is ruled upon in various ways.

scubus · February 3, 2008

I haven't had any classes, so I may be totally in correct, but...

Rule 16 in total is about the putting surface.

Rule 16 - 1a is about the line of the putt.

Rule 16 - 1c discusses repairing ball marks etc.

Both subsections fall under 16 because they discuss the green; however, each is a different rule and they don't have anything to do with each other. bstone boy is referencing subsection "a" and applying it to subsequent subsections. That is incorrect as I understand things. KevCarter is correct, section "c" discusses the repair of ball marks etc. on the green and that rule is applied without regard to whether the player is putting or not. You may repair ball marks anytime, anywhere.

By the way, rule 16-1d specifically mentions testing the green by "rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface of the green." You may not drag your putter along the surface to test the grain, no mention of tapping, so Tiger failed to break the rule. In addition, if the rule is read the way bstone boy suggests, testing the green would be acceptable as long as you did not intend to putt on your next stroke. I doubt that is correct.

Skaffa77 · February 3, 2008

Was he thumping the green or some fairway area leading up? He is more than welcome to thump the fairway right up to the green.

When it becomes the green which is a surface that the ball will roll across, modifying and repairing is ruled upon in various ways.

Since my memory isn't quite what it used to be, can someone confirm where he tapped...green or fairway?

I know the replay is on right now, but I won't be able to watch. If he did thump the green, might be worth writing in to a news organization to see what the ruling might be? Tournament is over so he's still the winner, but for clarification, I'd be interested to hear officially how the R&A/USGA would rule on it...

KevCarter · February 3, 2008

Rule 16

a. Touching Line of Putt

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;

(ii) he player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;

(iii) in measuring - Rule 18-6;

(iv) in lifting or replacing the ball - Rule 16-1b;

(v) in pressing down a ball-marker;

(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green - Rule 16-1c; and

(vii) in removing movable obstructions - Rule 24-1.

(Indicating line for putting on putting green - see Rule 8-2b.)

b. Lifting and Cleaning Ball

A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted, and the ball must be replaced (see Rule 20-1).

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

d. Testing Surface

During the stipulated round, a player must not test the surface of any putting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

Exception: Between the play of two holes, a player may test the surface of any practice putting green and the putting green of the hole last played, unless the Committee has prohibited such action (see Note 2 to Rule 7-2).

e. Standing Astride or on Line of Putt

The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.

Exception: There is no penalty if the stance is inadvertently taken on or astride the line of putt (or an extension of that line behind the ball) or is taken to avoid standing on another player's line of putt or prospective line of putt.

f. Making Stroke While Another Ball in Motion

The player must not make a stroke while another ball is in motion after a stroke from the putting green, except that if a player does so, there is no penalty if it was his turn to play.

(Lifting ball assisting or interfering with play while another ball in motion - see Rule 22.)

Penalty for Breach of Rule 16-1:

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

(Position of caddie or partner - see Rule 14-2.)

(Wrong putting green - see Rule 25-3.)

16-2. Ball Overhanging Hole

When any part of the ball overhangs the lip of the hole, the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. If by then the ball has not fallen into the hole, it is deemed to be at rest. If the ball subsequently falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and must add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole; otherwise, there is no penalty under this Rule.

(Undue delay - see Rule 6-7.)

===============================================

16-1a describes the line of putt. Nothing there contradicts 16-1c

Again, here is 16-1c

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green.

Kevin

Skaffa77 · February 4, 2008

Was he thumping the green or some fairway area leading up? He is more than welcome to thump the fairway right up to the green.

When it becomes the green which is a surface that the ball will roll across, modifying and repairing is ruled upon in various ways.
Since my memory isn't quite what it used to be, can someone confirm where he tapped...green or fairway?

I know the replay is on right now, but I won't be able to watch. If he did thump the green, might be worth writing in to a news organization to see what the ruling might be? Tournament is over so he's still the winner, but for clarification, I'd be interested to hear officially how the R&A/USGA would rule on it...

Alright...well I did get to see the rebroadcast and his wedge thumped the fringe...not the green. Might not have been the best angle to see it, but from what I saw, it was the fringe...

Also just for illustration purposes...when his wedge hit the ground, he was twirling the club in his hand and loosened the slack on it when it hit the ground...much like if you were walking up to your tee ball twirling your driver and hitting it on the ground. Definitely did not "seem" to be anything intended to test the firmness of the surface.

Regardless...if I read the other posts correctly and he did hit the fringe with the wedge, it would not be an infraction, correct?

ericld · February 4, 2008

I just watched the re-run and he thumps the fringe.

The fringe is NOT the putting surface. It is NOT the green. What he did was the equivalent of thumping the fairway with an iron as you walk.

WRXJIM · February 4, 2008

Even if he was on the green you could hardly call it testing...

He twirls the club, and lets it hit the deck. ONCE... All while he is walking towards the hole...

You have to be one desperate Nit Picker (sore loser) to try and pull someone up on that...

Now. if he had done it a couple of times as he approached the hole you could question his motives... but certainly not once...

Im NOT saying that is/is not what he was trying to do? as I dont know what he was thinking, but he did it in such a manner that it would always be a totally subjective argument. (clever? Experience? Both most likely :) )

Interesting topic though ;) Im still not sure whos right, ha ha But it has been a good read

I wish I was good enough that it made a differnce to me ha ha

Pat_Irish · February 4, 2008

Actually its not nit-picking or anything,its just a very intresting discussion point, its not about TW in reality, its more "rules" related, Consider this, YOU are over the green, 10 yards chipping back and right where you want to land the ball on the fringe, there is a large weed growing, to solve that little problem you go forward and take a "heavy pratice swing, and you now have a nice clear little area to try to drop the ball onto,,,so have you infringed the rules?, My opinion is yes you have, you improved your line to the hole

KevCarter · February 4, 2008

Actually its not nit-picking or anything,its just a very intresting discussion point, its not about TW in reality, its more "rules" related, Consider this, YOU are over the green, 10 yards chipping back and right where you want to land the ball on the fringe, there is a large weed growing, to solve that little problem you go forward and take a "heavy pratice swing, and you now have a nice clear little area to try to drop the ball onto,,,so have you infringed the rules?, My opinion is yes you have, you improved your line to the hole

Pat,

I certainly see your point. Definitely a gray area. My opinion is that there needs to be intent, or be obvious that the area of play was improved. We will never know about the intent, but it didn't look to me as though the line of play was improved. Clearly just a guess as we were not there... :) I also agree, that like just about anything rules related, this has been a very interesting topic of discussion!

Kevin

WRXJIM · February 4, 2008

I totally agree that its an intersting topic, and has nothing to do with TW per se' Just a general rules question.

I certainly wasnt "insinuating" that you are a nitpicker... sorry if thats the way it came accross. It was aimed at someone (anyone you are playing a round with/anyone that TW was playing with on that day) claiming a penalty against anyone in the "exact" same circumstances, as one drop of the club they way he did would be VERY difficult to prove anything.

So yeh grey area?

I still think you would be allowed to walk the green and remove debri, and also repair a pitch mark even pat down a worm turd. From what I have read here? can i? ha ha

Pat_Irish · February 4, 2008

Now i am not even sure if My chainsaw wedge with the forged teeth, is legal,,,but being serious, I have seen a few hairy moments in the last couple of years that embarrsed me, and to be honest i seen one on your golf channel, ( I go to florida alot) end of 2006,,,tour event from china,,,and something happened i am not sure of, but lets just say i counted a number of strokes at a hole that a player took, and that was not what seemed to be returned, I was dumbstruck with it and actually sat in as it was on later that night,,,guess what,,,that part was cut out,,,maybe i was wrong,,,,,maybeeeeeeeeee