Tree/ball/cart path conundrum. Relief or no?

[GingerBubba]

So to clarify, the shot that gets hit beyond the thick rough and all the way into the woods can be manipulated several times (legally) until there's a nice clean shot to the green.

 

The drive striped beautifully down the middle of the fairway rolls into a divot that wasn't there an hour before, but you've got to play it as it lies because that's what's golf is all about, right?

 

Welcome to golf!

[davep043]

3 hours ago, GingerBubba said:

So to clarify, the shot that gets hit beyond the thick rough and all the way into the woods can be manipulated several times (legally) until there's a nice clean shot to the green.

 

The drive striped beautifully down the middle of the fairway rolls into a divot that wasn't there an hour before, but you've got to play it as it lies because that's what's golf is all about, right?

 

Welcome to golf!

You write this as if you think you can always get to a better spot by using the Rules surrounding relief situations.  Its important to remember that you don't get a choice when you take relief, you MUST go to the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  There are times that means you either play off the cart path, or take a drop into 3-foot tall grass, or take Unplayable Ball relief.  Yes, if you know the Rules, sometimes you can use them to your advantage, but sometimes they just won't help you.  

I think its important to remember that paved roads and underground irrigation weren't really in existence when the first rules of golf were written, but divot holes certainly were.  As technology changed, new rules evolved to deal with it.  But divots never changed, so the rules surrounding divots haven't needed to be changed.  That's the last I'll say about divots here, you may want to go to one of the many other threads if you really want to go into that subject.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, GingerBubba said:

So to clarify, the shot that gets hit beyond the thick rough and all the way into the woods can be manipulated several times (legally) until there's a nice clean shot to the green.

 

The drive striped beautifully down the middle of the fairway rolls into a divot that wasn't there an hour before, but you've got to play it as it lies because that's what's golf is all about, right?

 

Welcome to golf!

 

I sure pays off to know the Rules, don't you think..?

 

As Dave explained, there is no guarantee you get to a good lie when taking relief. And FWIW, I take way way way more often relief from Abnormal Course Conditions than what my ball ends up in a divot hole on the fairway. Think about that.

[GingerBubba]

49 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You write this as if you think you can always get to a better spot by using the Rules surrounding relief

 

9 times out of 10, yes. On the occasion of the 1 in 10, you just wouldn't invoke the rules and would play the shot left handed with your (probably non spiked) shoes on the path and suffer no detriment whatsoever.

 

However, you're right, this thread isn't the place and my comment was only meant as a light hearted comment on the vagaries of golf.

 

 

[golfday]

On 9/11/2022 at 3:00 AM, antip said:

It seems no-one explicitly answered your follow up question.

Provided you have completed taking relief correctly for the left handed stroke and there is no interference for that left handed stroke when the ball is at rest in the relief area, you are free to play the ball anyway you want and it doesn't matter if you want to play a right handed stroke and your feet are on the path. See the last paragraph of 16.1a(3)/1 for official confirmation of this.

Edited - because I saw you answered the question that I was asking here.

 

Thanks!

Edited September 15, 2022 by golfday

[golfday]

On 9/10/2022 at 12:21 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

IMHO that is nearly never true. The nearest point of complete relief is usually on the side of the cart path the ball is on. If you assume a path width of ~6 feet, and you stand maybe 2 1/2 feet from the ball, moving the ball 2-3 feet left would be complete relief but you would have to move it >6 feet right to get complete relief on the other side of the path. 

 

Thus the nearest point of complete would most likely be about 2-3 feet left of the cart path. Which would possibly be within the tree trunk, but since you get 1 club length from the nearest point of free relief would mean an acceptable drop to the left of the tree was most likely within the relief area and would have allowed OP a much more direct right-handed shot towards the green. 

I agree with you, but based on the description of the OP's tree I don't think that this is the case here. You can't drop in a tree trunk so you're either going several feet backwards to get behind the tree, and then out away from the path; or all the way to the fairway side of the tree. With all that it seems the other side of the path is closer. Since you're dropping for a lefty shot, your nearest point will be just a few inches off the path on the other side and you can stay parallel with where the ball currently sits.

 

This is a difficult scenario to envision lol. Wish we had pics.

[davep043]

34 minutes ago, golfday said:

I agree with you, but based on the description of the OP's tree I don't think that this is the case here. You can't drop in a tree trunk so you're either going several feet backwards to get behind the tree, and then out away from the path; or all the way to the fairway side of the tree. With all that it seems the other side of the path is closer. Since you're dropping for a lefty shot, your nearest point will be just a few inches off the path on the other side and you can stay parallel with where the ball currently sits.

 

This is a difficult scenario to envision lol. Wish we had pics.

If your Nearest Point of Complete Relief is in the tree, your Relief Area is within 1 Clublength of that spot in the tree.  That NPCR relates only to Relief for the left-handed shot you planned to play, and the cart path, it doesn't include relief from other difficulties, including the tree.   It doesn't matter if that entire Relief Area is unplayable, as long as its in the General Area.  You can play it as it lies, you can take relief in that bad position, or perhaps you can take Unplayable Ball Relief into a better spot.

[betarhoalphadelta]

52 minutes ago, golfday said:

I agree with you, but based on the description of the OP's tree I don't think that this is the case here. You can't drop in a tree trunk so you're either going several feet backwards to get behind the tree, and then out away from the path; or all the way to the fairway side of the tree. With all that it seems the other side of the path is closer. Since you're dropping for a lefty shot, your nearest point will be just a few inches off the path on the other side and you can stay parallel with where the ball currently sits.

 

This is a difficult scenario to envision lol. Wish we had pics.

 

Yeah, per davep the fact that you may not be able to actually take the free relief at the nearest point of complete relief doesn't mean that there is now a different nearest point of complete relief. 

 

For example, let's say that instead of a tree, it's a giant bush, and it is not reasonable to play a shot from inside the bush. Your nearest point of complete relief is inside the bush. Taking a club length from that point no closer to the hole remains inside the bush. 

 

I believe the options are:

 

• Play it as it lies, left-handed stroke with your feet on the path. 
• Take the free relief but you're stuck inside a bush. 
• Take an unplayable lie (penalty stroke), which gives you two club lengths no closer to the hole--likely gets you to the other side of the path, back on the line of play relief, or S&D and go back to where you hit your previous shot. 

So yes, you could play from the other side of the path, but it would require a penalty stroke as you would have to declare it unplayable. You can't redefine the nearest point of complete relief for *free* relief to avoid a tree, or a bush, etc. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, golfday said:

I agree with you, but based on the description of the OP's tree I don't think that this is the case here. You can't drop in a tree trunk so you're either going several feet backwards to get behind the tree, and then out away from the path; or all the way to the fairway side of the tree. With all that it seems the other side of the path is closer. Since you're dropping for a lefty shot, your nearest point will be just a few inches off the path on the other side and you can stay parallel with where the ball currently sits.

 

This is a difficult scenario to envision lol. Wish we had pics.

 

There is a picture mock up, a drawing, and a video that show this scenario pretty much exactly earlier in this very thread.

[Wham49]

On 9/8/2022 at 9:57 AM, jc4birdie said:

Recently a slightly pushed drive finds the ball laying just to the right of a massive thorny palm tree, but just left of the cartpath, about 6-8 inches from the cartpath.   So, I'm thinking I have to play it, but in trying to get some type of reasonable address, I find that there is absolutely and positively NO POSSIBLE WAY to get a strike on the ball without me standing in some way on the cartpath....that is me trying to hit from and towards every direction possible, with every conceivable orientation of the clubhead.  Can't wrap my arms around the tree and grip the club; the tree is too big.

 

So, am I entitled to free cartpath  relief or do I have to take an unplayable lie?  Damndest situation I've ever encountered, and I'm not sure how one would proceed within the rules.  FWIW, neither of my playing partners did, either, so I erred on the side of caution and took the unplayable. 

I dont think you get cart path relief from your feet, only if it hinders the path of the club

[GwrxMod]

Topic cleaned up. 

 

Find another topic to post in if you can't discuss it like adults.

[Schulzmc]

2 hours ago, Wham49 said:

I dont think you get cart path relief from your feet, only if it hinders the path of the club

Quoting the rules:

 

”Interference exists when any one of these is true:

 

an abnormal course condition physically interferes with your area of intended stance or area of intended swing,”

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Wham49 said:

I dont think you get cart path relief from your feet, only if it hinders the path of the club

@Schulzmc has it right, its Rule 16.1a(1), second bullet point.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Wham49 said:

I dont think you get cart path relief from your feet, only if it hinders the path of the club

You are getting confused with the clause in Model Local Rule E-4 for special situations like aeration holes.

 

But interference does not exist if the aeration hole only interferes with the player’s stance .......

 

If the Committee declares aeration holes to be ground under repair, a player may find it impractical or impossible to obtain complete relief.

Therefore, when recent aeration holes may significantly interfere with the lie of the ball or area of intended swing, the Committee can choose to give relief as it would for ground under repair but exclude relief for interference to the player’s stance. This Local Rule should be withdrawn when the aeration holes have healed enough to avoid significant interference.

[nsxguy]

Topic cleaned up ???

 

How could this have blown up ?

 

What the heck did I miss ? (Someone please PM me - TIA)

[antip]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Topic cleaned up ???

 

How could this have blown up ?

 

What the heck did I miss ? (Someone please PM me - TIA)

No idea, that moderator message provides no insight into what has occurred.

[dffjunior]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:11 PM, jc4birdie said:

B/c of where the ball was, I declared in unplayable and dropped on a line more straight back from where it lay.  As it is a singular tree, that allowed me to play a big low sweeper that got on the ground and ran up the throat of the green on the putting surface.  So, based on what seems to be the consensus, I penalized myself incorrectly.  Not to be too circular about it, but is there a penalty for doing that, or is there any redress after the fact?

 

I've been getting some goofy situations lately.  Thinned an 8 iron into the grass area just at the top and corner of the lip of a huge greenside bunker about 3 weeks ago....it embedded.   I knew what to do then, as the area within a club length no closer to the hole gave me free relief adjacent to the bunker.

 

Unplayable is always available.  Even if you were entitled to relief but didn't take it, declaring unplayable is never an incorrect action.

 

On 9/8/2022 at 5:12 PM, NJBigFish22 said:

I’m probably completely wrong.  I would have taken relief from the cart path.  I don’t think as a right handed golfer, it is reasonable to be forced to swing left handed.  

Correct, it's not.  If that's your intended shot based on your discretion you can make it then you can use it to get relief but you're not compelled to.  We saw this on tour a couple years ago.

[golfday]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:36 PM, davep043 said:

If your Nearest Point of Complete Relief is in the tree, your Relief Area is within 1 Clublength of that spot in the tree.  That NPCR relates only to Relief for the left-handed shot you planned to play, and the cart path, it doesn't include relief from other difficulties, including the tree.   It doesn't matter if that entire Relief Area is unplayable, as long as its in the General Area.  You can play it as it lies, you can take relief in that bad position, or perhaps you can take Unplayable Ball Relief into a better spot.

Very interesting! I'm learning things I never knew (and will likely never encounter).

 

I was just able to dig this part up from the rule book (below). I guess it means if a hypothetical tree were really freaking huge, like a California redwood, then your entire relief area could be within the tree trunk, and in that case, you would not get relief. You would have to play off the path or take an unplayable.

Nearest Point of Complete Relief/5 – Player Physically Unable to Determine Nearest Point of Complete Relief

If a player is physically unable to determine his or her nearest point of complete relief, it must be estimated, and the relief area is then based on the estimated point.

For example, in taking relief under Rule 16.1, a player is physically unable to determine the nearest point of complete relief because that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required stance.

The player must estimate the nearest point of complete relief and drop a ball in the identified relief area.

If it is not physically possible to drop the ball in the identified relief area, the player is not allowed relief under Rule 16.1.