Tree/ball/cart path conundrum. Relief or no?

[jc4birdie]

Recently a slightly pushed drive finds the ball laying just to the right of a massive thorny palm tree, but just left of the cartpath, about 6-8 inches from the cartpath.   So, I'm thinking I have to play it, but in trying to get some type of reasonable address, I find that there is absolutely and positively NO POSSIBLE WAY to get a strike on the ball without me standing in some way on the cartpath....that is me trying to hit from and towards every direction possible, with every conceivable orientation of the clubhead.  Can't wrap my arms around the tree and grip the club; the tree is too big.

 

So, am I entitled to free cartpath  relief or do I have to take an unplayable lie?  Damndest situation I've ever encountered, and I'm not sure how one would proceed within the rules.  FWIW, neither of my playing partners did, either, so I erred on the side of caution and took the unplayable. 

[Mr. Bean]

1) Are you a lefty? Sounds like you are. Otherwise your explanation makes no sense to me.

2) What is the distance between the tree and the cart path?

3) What is the distance between the tree and the ball?

4) I do not understand you wrapping your arms around the tree as you would be on the other side of the tree from the cart path and would not be standing on the path.

 

An illustration would be nice...

[jc4birdie]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

1) Are you a lefty? Sounds like you are. Otherwise your explanation makes no sense to me.

2) What is the distance between the tree and the cart path?

3) What is the distance between the tree and the ball?

4) I do not understand you wrapping your arms around the tree as you would be on the other side of the tree from the cart path and would not be standing on the path.

 

An illustration would be nice...

1- no, I'm right handed.

2- about 6 inches, and the ball was precisely between them.....making 3- about 3 inches

 

Having played this course probably 150 times, I'd never even noticed that tree & cartpath being so close together.   That the ball was "centered" so precisely between the tree and cartpath, coupled w/ the width/breadth of the tree is why I couldn't formulate any type of stance to hit it in any way or direction without my feet being on the cartpath (backhand, left-handed, right).

[jc4birdie]

4- no, I wouldn't have been on the cartpath if I could've gripped the club w/ my arms around the tree (I've done that before to make a stroke).  Couldn't do that here, not b/c of the cartpath, but b/c the tree was of sufficient breadth that I couldn't grip the club to make a stroke at the ball.

[Abh159]

If you are making a reasonable attempt then yes, you would get relief from the cart path. It sounds like the shot your describing (hitting is left handed?) is the only reasonable option to advance the ball in your case. 

 

Keep in mind though that when taking relief from a cart path you have to take full relief at the nearest point. Even if that means dropping it directly behind the tree, in a bush, or any other unfavorable option. 

[Halebopp]

What would you have done if the cart path hadn't been there? 

[rogolf]

44 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

If you are making a reasonable attempt then yes, you would get relief from the cart path. It sounds like the shot your describing (hitting is left handed?) is the only reasonable option to advance the ball in your case. 

 

Keep in mind though that when taking relief from a cart path you have to take full relief at the nearest point. Even if that means dropping it directly behind the tree, in a bush, or any other unfavorable option. 

And if free relief was appropriate for that left-handed stroke, the nearest point of complete relief would need to be established for that left-handed stroke.  Once that process has been completed for the left-handed stroke, the ball can be played right-handed.

[davep043]

I'll quote from 16.1a(3), you do not get Relief from an Abnormal Course Condition:

"When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances"

If a left-handed swing isn't "clearly unreasonable", and it sounds like its not unreasonable at all, you get relief.  As others have said, your Nearest Point of Complete Relief is based on that left-handed swing, so it could be behind or next to that same tree, relief from the path doesn't mean you don't have a problem with the tree.  But once you've taken your drop, you can play any shot you choose, its a brand-new situation.

[Mr. Bean]

Some tell you (correctly) what the Rules say but I still cannot picture to myself what is the situation. But maybe you (the OP) can find the right answer from the Rules provided.

 

But one thing. Halebopp asked the question what would you have done if the cart path had not been there. What I read from your opening post you have no shot at all when standing on the cart path. To me that sounds like the cart path is not the problem but the lie of the ball. So no relief if it is correct what you describe.

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

But one thing. Halebopp asked the question what would you have done if the cart path had not been there.

This is a classic way of evaluating the issue of "clearly unreasonable".  As I read the OP, and omitting any concerns about the cart path, he didn't have a reasonable shot or direction of play right-handed, because of the tree immediately adjacent (golfer's left) of the ball.  A left-handed swing could give him a play forward, toward the green, and so would be a reasonable choice.  @jc4birdie, is this accurate? 

[Abh159]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Some tell you (correctly) what the Rules say but I still cannot picture to myself what is the situation. But maybe you (the OP) can find the right answer from the Rules provided.

 

But one thing. Halebopp asked the question what would you have done if the cart path had not been there. What I read from your opening post you have no shot at all when standing on the cart path. To me that sounds like the cart path is not the problem but the lie of the ball. So no relief if it is correct what you describe.

 

OP said there was absolutely no possible way to hit the ball without standing in some way on the cart path

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is a classic way of evaluating the issue of "clearly unreasonable".  As I read the OP, and omitting any concerns about the cart path, he didn't have a reasonable shot or direction of play right-handed, because of the tree immediately adjacent (golfer's left) of the ball.  A left-handed swing could give him a play forward, toward the green, and so would be a reasonable choice.  @jc4birdie, is this accurate? 

 

We must have read the OP very differently as I did not read anything about left-handed stroke, only the impossibility to strike the ball from any direction with any possible grip.

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

OP said there was absolutely no possible way to hit the ball without standing in some way on the cart path

 

The description of the problem was so utterly unclear that I withdraw myself from the discussion before we get a decent drawing of the situation.

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

The description of the problem was so utterly unclear that I withdraw myself from the discussion before we get a decent drawing of the situation.

I read it again, and I'm with you, I'll wait on the sideline for clarification.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, jc4birdie said:

Recently a slightly pushed drive finds the ball laying just to the right of a massive thorny palm tree, but just left of the cartpath, about 6-8 inches from the cartpath.   So, I'm thinking I have to play it, but in trying to get some type of reasonable address, I find that there is absolutely and positively NO POSSIBLE WAY to get a strike on the ball without me standing in some way on the cartpath....that is me trying to hit from and towards every direction possible, with every conceivable orientation of the clubhead.  Can't wrap my arms around the tree and grip the club; the tree is too big.

 

So, am I entitled to free cartpath  relief or do I have to take an unplayable lie?  Damndest situation I've ever encountered, and I'm not sure how one would proceed within the rules.  FWIW, neither of my playing partners did, either, so I erred on the side of caution and took the unplayable. 

 

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

We must have read the OP very differently as I did not read anything about left-handed stroke, only the impossibility to strike the ball from any direction with any possible grip.

 

That may have been what you read but that's not what he said.

 

Doesn't sound so confusing to me. He can't hit it righty AT ALL because of the tree but he CAN stand on the path and hit it in EITHER direction with a lefty stance.

 

He can turn the club over and hit it towards the green OR leave the club oriented righty and hit back towards the tee in an effort to get it in the clear again.

 

Below is the way *I* "see" it.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by nsxguy

[golfday]

Follow-up question:

So he gets to take a free drop within one club-length from the nearest point of complete relief as though he were taking the left handed stroke. After that drop takes place, he can re-assess the lie and play any shot he wants - meaning that now he could hit the ball right handed. So let's say that drop happens and now the tree is not in his way anymore, so now he wants to hit it righty, BUT hitting it righty now means that he's standing on the path again. Does that mean another drop for the new situation (i.e. to the nearest place where he can swing righty without standing on the path)? OR does it mean that he didn't take full relief on the first drop which would have been against the rules?

[david.c.w]

My guess is that he is stymied by the tree, so the only reasonable solution is to play it sideways or backwards.  This would put his feet on the cart path.  He would then get free relief but the nearest point of relief would still be behind the tree.  I guess he could repeat that process until he was far enough away from the tree to not have to stand on the path to make a reasonable stroke.

Edited September 8, 2022 by david.c.w

[david.c.w]

Here is how I picture OP's situation.

 

 

[golfday]

5 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

Here is how I picture OP's situation.

 

 

That could be it, but depending on the shape of the tree and the placement of the ball hitting backward might not be reasonable - i.e. if that ball were at the front of the tree, instead of the back, and the back of the tree were closer to the path. If that's the case not only is backwards potentially unreasonable but he'd also have to stand on the path to do it. The ball could be very close to the path.

 

Also, I don't think proving that there is a reasonable way to play a ball that doesn't involve standing on the path means he automatically doesn't get a drop. I think you have to deem that the shot played while standing on the path is UNreasonable. 

 

This is the line from rule 16.a.3:

No Relief When Clearly Unreasonable to Play Ball. There is no relief under Rule 16.1: 

- When playing the ball as it lies would be clearly unreasonable because of something other than an abnormal course condition (such as when a player is standing in temporary water or on an immovable obstruction but would be unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or

- When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances.

 

The ball isn't in a bush, and if the tree is blocking all attempts to move the ball without standing on the path and swinging lefty (this was his description), and the fact that he took an unplayable because he didn't think he could path relief, then I'd say that hitting left wasn't an unreasonable shot and he should have gotten free relief.

[jc4birdie]

3 hours ago, Halebopp said:

What would you have done if the cart path hadn't been there? 

Turned around left handed and hit it with the toe down.  However, w/ the cartpath there, I was standing on it, and therefore the question about relief.

[jc4birdie]

44 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

Here is how I picture OP's situation.

 

 

Close.  The ball was further up in between the tree and path, about equivalent to the line the word "tree" in the drawing sits.  But relatively speaking, the tree was much closer to the cartpath than was is represented here.  If I'd had a lefty five iron, and made a swing lefty and hit the ball standing on the path, I imagine that either the extreme toe of the club would've hit the tree, or the heel area would've nicked the concrete edges of the path.  Frankly, it is a really ridiculous place for a tree.

[jc4birdie]

B/c of where the ball was, I declared in unplayable and dropped on a line more straight back from where it lay.  As it is a singular tree, that allowed me to play a big low sweeper that got on the ground and ran up the throat of the green on the putting surface.  So, based on what seems to be the consensus, I penalized myself incorrectly.  Not to be too circular about it, but is there a penalty for doing that, or is there any redress after the fact?

 

I've been getting some goofy situations lately.  Thinned an 8 iron into the grass area just at the top and corner of the lip of a huge greenside bunker about 3 weeks ago....it embedded.   I knew what to do then, as the area within a club length no closer to the hole gave me free relief adjacent to the bunker.

[david.c.w]

18 minutes ago, jc4birdie said:

B/c of where the ball was, I declared in unplayable and dropped on a line more straight back from where it lay.  As it is a singular tree, that allowed me to play a big low sweeper that got on the ground and ran up the throat of the green on the putting surface.  So, based on what seems to be the consensus, I penalized myself incorrectly.  Not to be too circular about it, but is there a penalty for doing that, or is there any redress after the fact?

 

I've been getting some goofy situations lately.  Thinned an 8 iron into the grass area just at the top and corner of the lip of a huge greenside bunker about 3 weeks ago....it embedded.   I knew what to do then, as the area within a club length no closer to the hole gave me free relief adjacent to the bunker.

Seems to me that you could have used cart path relief, regardless of left handed shot toward the green or right handed away from the green.  And unless the tree was huge, you could have used a driver length to drop on the left side of the tree and played a right handed shot toward the green.  A 40"+ diameter tree is pretty darn big, so a driver could have gotten you to the other side.

[jacob7071]

1 hour ago, jc4birdie said:

Frankly, it is a really ridiculous place for a tree.

I find most of the trees in encounter on the golf course are in ridiculous places. 😂

 

I do think you get relief in this situation as flipping a club over and hitting left handed isn't unreasonable.  The nearest point is based on the left handed stance, but I didn't see mentioned in any prior posts, I'm pretty sure that nearest point could be in the middle of the tree trunk.  Maybe david.c.w alluded to this because if the nearest point is in the middle of the tree, your driver is almost surely long enough to get some of the relief area on the other side of the tree. 

[NJBigFish22]

I’m probably completely wrong.  I would have taken relief from the cart path.  I don’t think as a right handed golfer, it is reasonable to be forced to swing left handed.  

[david.c.w]

I knew I had seen this somewhere...

 

 

[Augster]

Free relief was totally available. It seems from the description (I don’t know why it was confusing for some) that you had a reasonable play toward the hole playing left handed. 
 

Depending on the width of the cart path, your left handed relief would likely put you on the opposite side of the path after your drop. Then when you try to play it right handed, you’ll again be standing on the path and take another free drop. 
 

Too much. 
 

I’d like to see the rules simplified for IO’s. No free relief except for sprinkler heads and sprinkler control boxes. That’s it. There are SO FEW IO’s in the middle of fairways, players should just hit it there. 
 

Enough with the free relief, and the 4+ drops that relief will likely entail. Speed up the round and simplify the rules at the same time. Win-win. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:23 PM, Augster said:

 

Depending on the width of the cart path, your left handed relief would likely put you on the opposite side of the path after your drop. Then when you try to play it right handed, you’ll again be standing on the path and take another free drop. 
 

 

IMHO that is nearly never true. The nearest point of complete relief is usually on the side of the cart path the ball is on. If you assume a path width of ~6 feet, and you stand maybe 2 1/2 feet from the ball, moving the ball 2-3 feet left would be complete relief but you would have to move it >6 feet right to get complete relief on the other side of the path. 

 

Thus the nearest point of complete would most likely be about 2-3 feet left of the cart path. Which would possibly be within the tree trunk, but since you get 1 club length from the nearest point of free relief would mean an acceptable drop to the left of the tree was most likely within the relief area and would have allowed OP a much more direct right-handed shot towards the green. 

[antip]

On 9/9/2022 at 4:47 AM, golfday said:

Follow-up question:

So he gets to take a free drop within one club-length from the nearest point of complete relief as though he were taking the left handed stroke. After that drop takes place, he can re-assess the lie and play any shot he wants - meaning that now he could hit the ball right handed. So let's say that drop happens and now the tree is not in his way anymore, so now he wants to hit it righty, BUT hitting it righty now means that he's standing on the path again. Does that mean another drop for the new situation (i.e. to the nearest place where he can swing righty without standing on the path)? OR does it mean that he didn't take full relief on the first drop which would have been against the rules?

It seems no-one explicitly answered your follow up question.

Provided you have completed taking relief correctly for the left handed stroke and there is no interference for that left handed stroke when the ball is at rest in the relief area, you are free to play the ball anyway you want and it doesn't matter if you want to play a right handed stroke and your feet are on the path. See the last paragraph of 16.1a(3)/1 for official confirmation of this.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, antip said:

It seems no-one explicitly answered your follow up question.

Provided you have completed taking relief correctly for the left handed stroke and there is no interference for that left handed stroke when the ball is at rest in the relief area, you are free to play the ball anyway you want and it doesn't matter if you want to play a right handed stroke and your feet are on the path. See the last paragraph of 16.1a(3)/1 for official confirmation of this.

 

And a new relief is also possible in such a case as it is a new situation.