Water Hazard rule / relief

[taylorx300]

Looking for an answer on relief.

Day one of tourney, a pond in running the length of the fairway from tee to green and is clearly marked as a water hazard. Overnight, the course gets 4inches of rain and the pond swells so the water of pond is now in the fairway and over the marked red stakes.

If a tee ball lands in the fairway but is in this water, can the player take relief from casual water?

[Schulzmc]

Standing water outside the penalty area boundary is an abnormal course condition. It must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the area outside the penalty area. If the ball is not lost (you can see and identify it, or walk in the water and retrieve it) you get a free drop no closer to the hole (nearest point of full relief from the abnormal course condition). If you cannot find the ball (i.e. you saw it splash when it landed, clearly outside the penalty area, but are unable to go find it because of the depth of the water) you get a free drop but that drop is taken from the point where you ENTERED the abnormal course condition, not where you believe the ball to have come to rest.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

Standing water outside the penalty area boundary is an abnormal course condition. It must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the area outside the penalty area. If the ball is not lost (you can see and identify it, or walk in the water and retrieve it) you get a free drop no closer to the hole (nearest point of full relief from the abnormal course condition). If you cannot find the ball (i.e. you saw it splash when it landed, clearly outside the penalty area, but are unable to go find it because of the depth of the water) you get a free drop but that drop is taken from the point where you ENTERED the abnormal course condition, not where you believe the ball to have come to rest.

 

And for that free drop you need the 95% certainty that the ball is NOT in the Penalty Area. That may be a problem in many cases because if you do not have that 95% the ball is considered to be in the PA.

[davep043]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And for that free drop you need the 95% certainty that the ball is NOT in the Penalty Area. That may be a problem in many cases because if you do not have that 95% the ball is considered to be in the PA.

This is exactly the conclusion the USGA posted in their Facebook group not long ago in a discussion of Interpretation 17.1a/2.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/posts/4656921617696831

To be honest, the language of the Interpretation itself is a little misleading to me.  I am hopeful that this might get cleaned up a bit in the 2023 Rules.

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is exactly the conclusion the USGA posted in their Facebook group not long ago in a discussion of Interpretation 17.1a/2.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/posts/4656921617696831

To be honest, the language of the Interpretation itself is a little misleading to me.  I am hopeful that this might get cleaned up a bit in the 2023 Rules.

 

 

IIRC that Int is more or less a direct copy of an old Decision. Thus maybe the language has not been sufficiently updated to match current percentage of KVC.

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

IIRC that Int is more or less a direct copy of an old Decision. Thus maybe the language has not been sufficiently updated to match current percentage of KVC.

You're right, old 1-4/7.  The way I think of it, you take the more severe of the two possible outcomes, but you do not have to treat it as a Lost Ball.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

You're right, old 1-4/7.  The way I think of it, you take the more severe of the two possible outcomes, but you do not have to treat it as a Lost Ball.

 

That would not be possible as the ball is either in PA or in GUR so it must be lost in one of them. But as Rules 2019 has taken the 95% KVC more or less everywhere that "most likely option" should now be outdated in such incidents.

[Colin L]

Respectfully, I think it's not merely pedantic to suggest that when  there is KVC the ball is in one or the other  we should be talking about a ball not found  rather than a ball lost. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

Respectfully, I think it's not merely pedantic to suggest that when  there is KVC the ball is in one or the other  we should be talking about a ball not found  rather than a ball lost. 

 

To my ear "not found" sounds like we are still looking but "lost" is a final status.

 

Interestingly enough, Int 17.1a/2 uses the term "lost" in the headline but the term "not found" in the text. From a pragmatic point of view the outcome is exactly the same.

[T_Golf_23]

19 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

Standing water outside the penalty area boundary is an abnormal course condition. It must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the area outside the penalty area. If the ball is not lost (you can see and identify it, or walk in the water and retrieve it) you get a free drop no closer to the hole (nearest point of full relief from the abnormal course condition). If you cannot find the ball (i.e. you saw it splash when it landed, clearly outside the penalty area, but are unable to go find it because of the depth of the water) you get a free drop but that drop is taken from the point where you ENTERED the abnormal course condition, not where you believe the ball to have come to rest.

Spot on…. It is amazing how many golfers don’t understand this rule. 
 

once had a guy tell my I had to play it as it lies or take an unplayable…. 
 

The “rules of golf” app for the phone is very handy for this stuff. 

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, T_Golf_23 said:

Spot on…. It is amazing how many golfers don’t understand this rule. 
 

once had a guy tell my I had to play it as it lies or take an unplayable…. 
 

The “rules of golf” app for the phone is very handy for this stuff. 

 

Indeed, you just need to know from which section you need to search for the answer. The case at hand cannot be answered from the Rules section but from the Interpretations.