Swing changes for fused neck & backs

[chipa]

16 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Hi all, happy new year to you! Hope its a great 2023 with lots of pain free golf for us all (including myself towards the end of the year!)

 

I was doing some reading and was wondering if any of you knew where to find some better answers.

 

My issue being lumbar spine, a key for future swing changes is to reduce the load on the lumbar spine. By "load" I can only assume twisting / X Factor type moves but I am really struggling to find some reference material on exactly what causes load and what lessens it? Anyone have any links to reading that might be useful? Perhaps anything digestible from a biomechanics standpoint?

 

Even chatting to the TPI professional that did my assessment a year ago there seems to be very little proper information on how to swing with fused backs and necks (even just back pain)... besides the odd "method". Looking more for principles to guide us as we all swing differently. 

 

Some good information that I found and seems to make sense from a post op recovery perspective is for me to work heavily on core stability, then flexibility particularly in the hips and thoracic spine to accommodate the lack of lumbar movement. This should give me the best chance to not do more damage whilst returning to the game. I am currently around the 110 - 115mph swing speed (92-95 with 7 iron) so assuming nothing I do will completely take load away even if I lost 10mph+ eventually on the driver and a touch on the irons.

 

 

I have 3 fused lumber vertebrae. Good luck with your research, I am an engineer and have been researchign methods for many years and I would say the closest remotely physics based methods are Dr. Mckenzie's kinetic chain theory. Unfortunately, the force generated in his models appear to be rotation around different joints w/o taking into account the elastic unloading and loading of the ligaments like in more up to date research done in baseball and tennis biomehcanics.

 

As I've gotten older I have been looking for a solution to continue to play golf, and have learned to turn the upper spine more as well as resit with the legs. This is very easy on the lower back as it uses the elastic loading and loading as a power source. It is quite powerful when done correctly i doubt you will loose any clubhead speed. the legs may tire a little earlier but the back shouldn't feel tired compared to other methods. Please feel free to contact me via a message. i will be glad to explain to you this simple technique based on Hogans' "live tension". Happy New Year.

[ChaosTheory]

Please try the Moe Norman swing by Graves Golf, or the slightly more conventional version by Kirk Junge.  I've written here often, it is SO much easier on the back because of less twisting and compression of the spine.  I started using it in 2005 for a bad back, and am still using it, free of back pain.  It doesn't cost anything to try it.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Snowman9000

[ewaldbeukes]

7 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

Please try the Moe Norman swing by Graves Golf, or the slightly more conventional version by Kirk Junge.  I've written here often, it is SO much easier on the back because of less twisting and compression of the spine.  I started using it in 2005 for a bad back, and am still using it, free of back pain.  It doesn't cost anything to try it.

Thanks @Snowman9000 I have looked at his stuff before and loads of it makes sense and works! Thank you for the reminder. 

 

 

[ewaldbeukes]

Hi all,

 

So after posting my question I went down a bit of a rabbit hole (typical WRXer)… below is a summary of findings for actual research journals, mostly peer reviewed. Most of the elements have not been studied to deeply which was interesting as LBP is such a big thing... but here are some nuggets.

 

The suggestions are my own based on my experience as a low handicap golfer, I am not a swing coach and if you do want to incorporate as always please do consult a pro!

 

Neck

 

• Risk factor is the opposing axial forces ie keeping the head down or against the direction of turn

 

Suggested Modifications

 

Look at examples of Jack Nicklaus on the backswing and Annika Sorenstam, David Duval, Hendrik Stenson on the follow through. Essentially keep the neck moving and twisting in the same direction as the turn. Ie for right handed golfers let it naturally move to the right on the backswing and to the left on the downswing without keeping the "head down"

 

 

See above Jack in the backswing with head tilted away from target.

 

 

Here is Annika also doing it in the backswing. In fact, if you could copy her swing then you hit most of the elements for a sound back and neck!

 

 

At impact her head is tilted in the direction of force and after impact continues to rotate freely.

 

 

DD in his prime was a pretty decent ballstriker too… head releasing fully.

 

The caveat here is to not lose height as that will affect lowpoint and is likely what is trying to be conveyed with "keep the head down" vs keep it reasonable level or compensate accordingly. Tiger Woods famously had a dip on the downswing and he turned out ok.

 

 

Back

 

For back pain two of my key take outs were crunch factor and the role of the hips. I hope to shed some light below:

 

Hips, Spine Tilts and Back

 

Consistent setup with a neutral lumbar spine (no S Posture - look this up on TPI). The reason is that the S posture restricts hip movement making the back essentially need to move outside of the capable range of motion. When you move outside of your capable ROM the lumbar spine does more twisting than it needs to and causes shearing forces which are the proven risk factor for LBP in golfers and herniated disc based on the studies (barring genetics etc). Essentially this will cause repetitive strain on the disc nucleus and degenerate the disk quicker. (the shearing forces are also heavily applicable to spine crunch - see below)

 

 

 

Some examples of neutral posture. Nowhere in the literature do it allude to C Posture being "bad" and it was commonly used in the classic golf swing. I think if it somewhere between the Neutral position and C-posture (like pic A above) you should be good… ramrod straight is hard to turn naturally.

 

Crunch Factor 

 

You want to reduce the "crunch factor" (yes this is a thing) which is a combination of Trunk Flexion + axial rotation. If this was a mathematical sum it would be more trunk flexion + greater axial rotation = greater stress and risk. Essentially you want to reduce right side bend and be more spine upright in swing combined with a more natural and unrestricted release. 

 

 

 

The "X Factor" that gives the modern swing height is a killer for this move.

 

The crunch factor will cause repetitive strain on the disc nucleus and degenerate the disk quicker. This is the greatest risk and greatest cause of pain in the studies. The second risk is at impact when the forces are greatest. In the studies they postulated that although the force at impact is multiples of that at address, (These forces have been reported between 6.5 and 8 times body weight immediately after impact.) that this force should not be enough to herniate a disc on its own ie single swing (more likely at impact from deep grass, bunker, tree root etc at impact). However, repeating the high force at impact with a tilted spine (see Jason Day, Niemann) contributes to back failure.

 

 

 

Pictured above is Rocco mediate at impact on gears - almost perfectly straight. With driver a touch behind the line. You may lost some height but strike remains excellent. I have gotten close to this now and hit a nice draw, touch lower than before. Feels like hitting a topspin forehand. 

 

 

Jason Day spine tilt with an iron shows him far further behind the ball. This is good for distance and height but puts strain on the lumbar spine.

 

 

Niemann - Pretty much avoid everything in this picture. Spine tilted away from the ball, significant side bend and a reverse c finish. Take the LIV money now…

 

A noted from the classic swingers and those with limited range of motion… "As a result of the increased hip turn, the separation angle between shoulder and pelvic rotation is less, resulting in less torque being placed on the lower back in the classic swing" so a solution is to either move the trunk as a unit when going back (classic swing) or lift the arms more) see below a nice link to TPI demonstrating these solutions to trunk inflexibility. Building hip flexibility is always going to be helpful as it protects the spine through a broader ROM.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnAeYTYg-ab/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Back Other

 

Other items include avoiding reverse pivot in the backswing and C spine in the follow through. The backwards curving motion at speed puts pressure on the spine. This type of move in a low impact controlled fashion for rehab is actually promoted but at speed it’s a killer move.

 

 

Reverse pivot 

 

Follow through - More pressure left, less pressure right. Also refer to pic C below for a more athletic look of the same position. The Gary Player walk through drill comes to mind for keeping the momentum going forward and the back not arching. He is still doing pretty well deep into his 80s.

 

 

 

Anyway, those are some insights from the 40 odd journal articles I read on the subject. I am taking this info and packing it into a summarised version to work with my coach on. Summary list below:

 

• Consistent setup position (No S Posture - TPI) (For my swing that’s sbout 28-30 Degrees forward bend Irons, 23-25 Degrees Driver should be good and consistent for me. I am tall and have modified my clubs.) Acceptable range for forward bend is 28 +- 8 degrees with driver and 35 +- 13 degrees for iron at setup)
• Shorten follow through (Sorenstam / Stenson follow through) and rotate level through the ball and release the body
• Keep backswing short
• Reduce Trunk Hyperextension in follow through (Avoid C Finish)
• Avoid reverse pivot in backswing
• Reduce Trunk Range of Motion in swing
• Remove X Factor and release the body (old school swings do well to remove X factor. Ballard / Sorenstam full body release examples for follow through)
• Wider stance helps with upright swing and less hip / pelvis rotation rotation. If you rotate, rotate as a unit (old school swing)
• Reduce Right side bend and be more spine upright in swing (reduce spine “crunch” ie side bend + axial rotation)
• Remove early extension extension

 

Hope these help someone… its been eye opening to see the factors that contribute / cause the issues. I think the hard part (and my journey) is finding someone who can help me build these lessons / modifications into a functional swing and then getting / keeping some speed. Although, already made some big changes and swinging it at 93-95mph with 7 iron… so not lacking distance although I am 6ft2 with long levers!

 

Happy to share any of the source research articles or have a deeper discussion if anything part of my brain dump above is not clear.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by ewaldbeukes
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[ChaosTheory]

8 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Thanks @Snowman9000 I have looked at his stuff before and loads of it makes sense and works! Thank you for the reminder. 

 

 

 

I play at a club in where the members are mostly older guys because it's in a 55+ community.  We have a fairly stout course though.  Anyway, arguably the best member here, mid 50s I think, has switched to the Moe type swing, and he's killing it.  I think he switched for performance more than back issues.  I will have to ask him.

[golftech]

First, I’d like to thank everyone for their posts on this subject.  This is the strength of golfwrx and some rich information in this thread.  
 

Looking at the swing photos in posts above, Annika Sorenstam stands out as a dynamic motion with limited unnatural spine alignments and tilts.  I’ve searched modern instruction for analysis on alignments & motions, but haven’t found any with transparent research into how the spine is designed to work, and how the alignments that are not natural can cause issues.  TPI touches on, but doesn’t go deep.  
 

For instance, we know twisting in the lower lumbar spine causes painful issues, but I’ve found limited instruction that proposed elimination of side tilts (either direction).  Jimmy Ballard touches on anecdotally just as Wild Bill Mehlhorn did many decades earlier (and Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd who taught Ballard).  Plus all three taught a posture that eliminated anterior pelvis tilt at address.  

 

With a fused neck now, I’ve searched for any research on neck tilts against proper spine alignments and swing biomechanics.  I haven’t found any research or instruction in this area.  Again, watching Sorenstam swing, she appears to maintain neutral cervical spine alignments through to the finish.  
 

There seems to be a large void in modern golf instruction on this.  Much like Mac O’Grady in sponsoring the decade long MORAD research in the 80-90’s, it would be great to see some formal science being applied to help all of us with spine issues.  I’m hoping the next generation of golf instruction takes on this challenge.
 

 

[chipa]

On 1/7/2023 at 2:06 PM, golftech said:

First, I’d like to thank everyone for their posts on this subject.  This is the strength of golfwrx and some rich information in this thread.  
 

Looking at the swing photos in posts above, Annika Sorenstam stands out as a dynamic motion with limited unnatural spine alignments and tilts.  I’ve searched modern instruction for analysis on alignments & motions, but haven’t found any with transparent research into how the spine is designed to work, and how the alignments that are not natural can cause issues.  TPI touches on, but doesn’t go deep.  
 

For instance, we know twisting in the lower lumbar spine causes painful issues, but I’ve found limited instruction that proposed elimination of side tilts (either direction).  Jimmy Ballard touches on anecdotally just as Wild Bill Mehlhorn did many decades earlier (and Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd who taught Ballard).  Plus all three taught a posture that eliminated anterior pelvis tilt at address.  

 

With a fused neck now, I’ve searched for any research on neck tilts against proper spine alignments and swing biomechanics.  I haven’t found any research or instruction in this area.  Again, watching Sorenstam swing, she appears to maintain neutral cervical spine alignments through to the finish.  
 

There seems to be a large void in modern golf instruction on this.  Much like Mac O’Grady in sponsoring the decade long MORAD research in the 80-90’s, it would be great to see some formal science being applied to help all of us with spine issues.  I’m hoping the next generation of golf instruction takes on this challenge.
 

 

 

Golf science is behind tennis and baseball as demonstrated by the lack of dicussion of the elastic loading and unloading as the primary generation of power which has been recoginized as essential in baseball and tennis.

 

Furthermore, along the same vein there is no real discussion (that I have seen) that talks about the importance for injured and older golfers to maintain tension in their ligaments as is recommended in sports medicine for older persons to prevent injuries to the joints and back.

 

The logic behind this should be clear, the majority of force generated in the swing should be created in the tendons/muscles and the same tendons/muscles being tensed will also protect structural damage to the joints and vertebrae, with the end result being the tendons/muscles take the bulk of the forces created by the golf swing.

 

Here is a link that discusses TB12 Tom Brady's method of trainig that allows him as an older football player to continue to play in the NFl with players half his age. https://tb12sports.com/blogs/tb12/pliability

 

I am a graduate engineer (Clemson '92) and am using the same principals of standard physics and materal properties and 20+ years of playing to offer this perspective.

[Chelsea's dad]

Thanks ALIF! Just had mine done Feb 6 (ALIF L5xS1j, and started hitting a few balls again this week. I hit maybe 40-50 balls each session with mostly 52, 9 or 8 iron. I did try a few drivers, but was noticeably shorter. Granted it’s very early (only 3 sessions last 8 days) but was that what you guys saw as well? I assume the speed will come back in a couple months once I’m pain free and stronger. My good friend is also my instructor and we are gonna use this ramp up to really fine tune my hands to be less floppy and hone in on the sequencing I lost due to the extreme pain the last 3 years. Just glad to be back with a club in hand!

[ALIF]

On 5/16/2023 at 7:02 PM, Chelsea's dad said:

Thanks ALIF! Just had mine done Feb 6 (ALIF L5xS1j, and started hitting a few balls again this week. I hit maybe 40-50 balls each session with mostly 52, 9 or 8 iron. I did try a few drivers, but was noticeably shorter. Granted it’s very early (only 3 sessions last 8 days) but was that what you guys saw as well? I assume the speed will come back in a couple months once I’m pain free and stronger. My good friend is also my instructor and we are gonna use this ramp up to really fine tune my hands to be less floppy and hone in on the sequencing I lost due to the extreme pain the last 3 years. Just glad to be back with a club in hand!

It will all come back with time. I think that ewaldbuekes made a really good post above. Excessive right lateral bend with the axial rotation is something we have to be careful of. I have right lateral bending my swing but not very much. Also my hips are open at impact but not very much. Like you well know, it’s all about protecting this fusion to last the rest of our lives.

[ewaldbeukes]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:52 AM, ALIF said:

It will all come back with time. I think that ewaldbuekes made a really good post above. Excessive right lateral bend with the axial rotation is something we have to be careful of. I have right lateral bending my swing but not very much. Also my hips are open at impact but not very much. Like you well know, it’s all about protecting this fusion to last the rest of our lives.

Good luck to all those coming back from injury! I have avoided surgery for now on my lower back personally... managed to keep playing with injections, rest, loads of rehab and more... Hope it stays manageable. I cannot remember who suggested looking at Graves golf... I have adopted a single plane method (took me some time) but its been fascinating how being more single plane and hitting into a bent left leg has completely stopped my early extension, alleviated most of my pain and given me my speed and ball striking back! Went from a 4 index to a 2 index again and cruising speed on the driver is 115-118 (with a bad back!) Anyone with back trouble, your welcome to reach out and chat... its been a literal life (golf) saver.

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

8 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Good luck to all those coming back from injury! I have avoided surgery for now on my lower back personally... managed to keep playing with injections, rest, loads of rehab and more... Hope it stays manageable. I cannot remember who suggested looking at Graves golf... I have adopted a single plane method (took me some time) but its been fascinating how being more single plane and hitting into a bent left leg has completely stopped my early extension, alleviated most of my pain and given me my speed and ball striking back! Went from a 4 index to a 2 index again and cruising speed on the driver is 115-118 (with a bad back!) Anyone with back trouble, your welcome to reach out and chat... its been a literal life (golf) saver.

 

 

 

It may have been me.  I switched 20 years ago in hopes of playing without back pain, and it worked.  I still use the method today.   I'm glad to hear it saved your back too.

[ewaldbeukes]

On 10/26/2022 at 3:48 AM, golftech said:

I’d like to start a thread for those with lumbar or cervical spine fusion. I’m about to have a 2 level cervical spine fusion and wonder the types of swing changes others made afterwards.  I’ve always tried to distribute stress across my back with spine bends balanced at setup across lumbar, thoracic and cervical spine.  While I was taught that years ago, it’s nice seeing Gankas and others teaching this setup posture now and not an ultra straight back anymore.  Beside setup posture, what mechanical swings changes have others made.  Plus, any teachers out there experienced with fused students? While parts of Ballard’s common denominators make sense, Knudson ‘headless’ swinging motion looks like it adds rotational aspects but still limits back stress, both lumbar and cervical.  Plus his upright finish should be better on my fused neck.  I’d like to hear from others about this.  Thanks,

 

Hi @golftech just a check in to hear how you have been recovering after your fusion? If you would not mind sharing I would love to hear how your recovery has gone, what levels were fused, what procedure was done and your timeline for getting back to golf? Any loss of mobility? 

 

[harveythomas]

I had an anterior cervical discectomy (c5-6) and fusion operation 11 days ago.   I had a bad stenosis causing a lot of neck pain, my whole back feeling increasingly tight all down the right side and my right arm getting weaker and clumsier by the year.  
 

My golf was much worse this year and I’d lost 20 yards on my driver.  
 

My neck still feels quite stiff but is much improved.   My dr says I can do chipping and putting from day 14 and then build up to full swings as soon as rehabilitation exercise and time allows me to do so comfortably.  He says the metal work and implant to aid the fusion means everything is solid so I can’t do any harm to it.  
 

Potentially I could imagine playing a full round by about day 21-28 if it continues to improve like it has been doing.  Initially swinging gently from forward tees perhaps and maybe building to full play by days 35-60.  
 

This seems much quicker than I read on Google but my surgeon keeps saying it’s fine to do as soon as it feels ok for me to do.  He says it’s much better the day after surgery than beforehand where the pinching of the nerve was significant.
 

Has anyone on here got any alternative views or experiences.  
 

As of today I feel like I could try to swing gently without too much pain although I don’t dare risk it yet.  

[ewaldbeukes]

25 minutes ago, harveythomas said:

I had an anterior cervical discectomy (c5-6) and fusion operation 11 days ago.   I had a bad stenosis causing a lot of neck pain, my whole back feeling increasingly tight all down the right side and my right arm getting weaker and clumsier by the year.  
 

My golf was much worse this year and I’d lost 20 yards on my driver.  
 

My neck still feels quite stiff but is much improved.   My dr says I can do chipping and putting from day 14 and then build up to full swings as soon as rehabilitation exercise and time allows me to do so comfortably.  He says the metal work and implant to aid the fusion means everything is solid so I can’t do any harm to it.  
 

Potentially I could imagine playing a full round by about day 21-28 if it continues to improve like it has been doing.  Initially swinging gently from forward tees perhaps and maybe building to full play by days 35-60.  
 

This seems much quicker than I read on Google but my surgeon keeps saying it’s fine to do as soon as it feels ok for me to do.  He says it’s much better the day after surgery than beforehand where the pinching of the nerve was significant.
 

Has anyone on here got any alternative views or experiences.  
 

As of today I feel like I could try to swing gently without too much pain although I don’t dare risk it yet.  

Congratulations on what sounds like a good outcome from your procedure and wishing you a speedy recovery. If you wouldnt mind, please keep updating on your journey back? Would be great to follow including any timelines and lessons learned on your journey back. I am looking to do ADR or fusion for same area! 

 

Yes, you certainly seem to be beating the online time estimates... but thats positive as I can certainly see myself wanting to do some putting and possibly even chipping asap after the procedure. 

[harveythomas]

Yes I hit a few chips in the garden today.  Didn’t hurt although shanking a few did not feel great!  
 

Over the weekend or Monday I’ll go to my club to use the short game area for an hour or two.  Hope to get my short game and putting in good shape for when I’m playing again.  

[harveythomas]

I am now on day 23 post fusion.  Yesterday I hit 20 gently at the range and then played 9 holes off the forward tees.

 

not a great experience.  Very out of shape.  Cannot hit bunker shots which are usually a big strength of mine.  3 lost balls.  11 over par.  Hitting the ball about 30 percent less.   No freedom of movement.  
 

i don’t feel any added pain from it this morning other than being fed up I can’t move properly or play golf in an enjoyable way.  
 

hope it will get better soon. 

[ewaldbeukes]

On 9/6/2023 at 7:32 AM, harveythomas said:

I am now on day 23 post fusion.  Yesterday I hit 20 gently at the range and then played 9 holes off the forward tees.

 

not a great experience.  Very out of shape.  Cannot hit bunker shots which are usually a big strength of mine.  3 lost balls.  11 over par.  Hitting the ball about 30 percent less.   No freedom of movement.  
 

i don’t feel any added pain from it this morning other than being fed up I can’t move properly or play golf in an enjoyable way.  
 

hope it will get better soon. 

Hey Harvey, following with keen interest as I am going for a similar fusion (perhaps an extra level pending my next visit with the surgeon). Likely October 17 for surgery...

 

Glad that the procedure went well, I think that is always my first concern! Have you had any recurrence of pain and discomfort? I do assume its too early to tell... I personally get into bouts where mine is terrible and I cannot use my arm, shooting pain, stiffness and spasm in the neck etc... then it gets better, then it comes back again... but it is becoming more frequent in its recurrence and thus I am going to have it looked at now. I play to a low handicap with loads of speed so a bit concerned with the mobility!

 

How are you coming on? You are almost a month out from surgery... at this stage I would think normally only putting and perhaps some chipping would be allowed, but you seem to feel strong enough to progress? 

When you say you are struggling with freedom of movement, is it a physical restriction still (neck stiff from operation) or are you conscious of making contact with the ground? The fact that bunker play (should be last on the list with driver for return to golf from what I have heard) is a struggle makes me wonder? 

 

What was your handicap / is your handicap index and driver speed if I may ask?

 

Have you been taking some time off work or are you back at it already?

 

Any insights would be great and good luck with your recovery, wishing you well.

[ChaosTheory]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:32 AM, harveythomas said:

I am now on day 23 post fusion.  Yesterday I hit 20 gently at the range and then played 9 holes off the forward tees.

 

not a great experience.  Very out of shape.  Cannot hit bunker shots which are usually a big strength of mine.  3 lost balls.  11 over par.  Hitting the ball about 30 percent less.   No freedom of movement.  
 

i don’t feel any added pain from it this morning other than being fed up I can’t move properly or play golf in an enjoyable way.  
 

hope it will get better soon. 

 

You'll get better.   And you'll learn to manufacture a score out of what you've got.   The glass is half full!

[harveythomas]

Am now day 33 post surgery.  
 

I played a further 45 holes since my last update.  
 

I was a 6 handicap last season and was heading down but struggled this season and slipped to a 9 before my surgery.   My lowest round this year was a 75 with a one under gross back nine.  I had a few signs of getting my game going after a couple of lessons in the Summer then had this surgery.  
 

I played about 14 handicap standard this week.  I have absolutely no speed left in my body literally hitting about 170 yard drives if I’m lucky.  The upper back is very locked up and my neck feels not much better.  I feel sore after I played and it wasn’t very enjoyable.  
 

I am working but still sore and low on energy.   The surgeon said it was a success at the time.  After a few days it wasn’t too painful and I’m about to start stepping up the rehabilitation work.  Too early to say if it’s gone well.  Feels like I’m months from being able to move freely enough to play decent golf and enjoy it again.  
 

The stenosis was worsening pre surgery and probably why my game was poor this year pre surgery in large part.  I was advised if I left it I’d end up starting to get paralysis / permanent nerve damage given it was worsening significantly over time.  So I didn’t have much option I felt but it’s not feeling great yet.  

[ewaldbeukes]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:44 AM, harveythomas said:

Am now day 33 post surgery.  
 

I played a further 45 holes since my last update.  
 

I was a 6 handicap last season and was heading down but struggled this season and slipped to a 9 before my surgery.   My lowest round this year was a 75 with a one under gross back nine.  I had a few signs of getting my game going after a couple of lessons in the Summer then had this surgery.  
 

I played about 14 handicap standard this week.  I have absolutely no speed left in my body literally hitting about 170 yard drives if I’m lucky.  The upper back is very locked up and my neck feels not much better.  I feel sore after I played and it wasn’t very enjoyable.  
 

I am working but still sore and low on energy.   The surgeon said it was a success at the time.  After a few days it wasn’t too painful and I’m about to start stepping up the rehabilitation work.  Too early to say if it’s gone well.  Feels like I’m months from being able to move freely enough to play decent golf and enjoy it again.  
 

The stenosis was worsening pre surgery and probably why my game was poor this year pre surgery in large part.  I was advised if I left it I’d end up starting to get paralysis / permanent nerve damage given it was worsening significantly over time.  So I didn’t have much option I felt but it’s not feeling great yet.  

Sorry to hear of your struggles, I trust that its just getting back into it so soon after the surgery! I understand the locked up feeling as I can lose plenty of distance when feeling really stiff or in the cold...

 

From my understanding the fusion should take up to 3 months to heal so I have read and been told to not do full swings until 3 months (and bunker shots). Could it be that you have tried to make a comeback to quickly? Might be a silly question, but what timeline did the surgeon suggest? I was planning on this progression based on my reading and chatting to others:

 

0-2 Weeks : Recover, walk and stretch

2-4 Weeks : Putting (I use a broom handle)

4-8 Weeks : Chipping

8-12 Weeks : Pitching into short irons

12 Weeks + Longer clubs and playing off the forward tees for 30 days to work my way back up to speed

 

At this stage in your recovery, are you comfortable (besides the stiffness) to chip / putt / pitch?

[golfarb1]

The facet joints are the connections between the bones of the spine .

The ANGLE of these facet joints varies considerably in the 3 parts of the spine and are integral in determining  the type of motion of these 3 parts of the spine .

The Cervical spine or neck allows 

movements in all directions 

The thoracic spine allows side bending and rotation but little flexion and extension .

The lumbar spine allows flexion and extension but little side bending and virtually no rotation . 

Most back injuries associated with golf relate to trying to side bend and especially rotation at the LUMBAR spine .

So the obvious way to change your swing because of injuries and surgeries at the lumbar spine is to adopt a swing that minimizes rotation and side bending at the lumbar spine . 
First , if you can,  setup with a “ neutral spine”. This means setting up with a spine with its normal 3 curves of the spine . Forget about a straight back like many young pros have  and forget about sticking your butt out too much .

Second ,take a wider stance than before . A wider stance encourages lateral movement , while a narrow stance encourages rotation 

Third , flare out both feet out ALA a duck . Doing so will make  any rotation easier to do . 

 

Fourth , accept the idea that you will need to reduce the amount of rotation and side bending in your swing 

ALLOW your head to float laterally  away from the target going back and laterally towards the target going down . Doing so will help avoid side bending pressures  on your spine .

Fifth, reduce the length of your swing .Longer swings inevitably are driven by more rotation . A longer length driver might help to reduce the effects of a shorter swing . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by golfarb1

[harveythomas]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:59 PM, ewaldbeukes said:

Sorry to hear of your struggles, I trust that its just getting back into it so soon after the surgery! I understand the locked up feeling as I can lose plenty of distance when feeling really stiff or in the cold...

 

From my understanding the fusion should take up to 3 months to heal so I have read and been told to not do full swings until 3 months (and bunker shots). Could it be that you have tried to make a comeback to quickly? Might be a silly question, but what timeline did the surgeon suggest? I was planning on this progression based on my reading and chatting to others:

 

0-2 Weeks : Recover, walk and stretch

2-4 Weeks : Putting (I use a broom handle)

4-8 Weeks : Chipping

8-12 Weeks : Pitching into short irons

12 Weeks + Longer clubs and playing off the forward tees for 30 days to work my way back up to speed

 

At this stage in your recovery, are you comfortable (besides the stiffness) to chip / putt / pitch?

My surgeon said everything is screwed tight together and that I could do what I liked after two weeks.  
 

I am now on day 39.   
 

What he didn’t say was how locked up everything would be even after mobilisation exercises.  This makes playing golf to any standard impossible as I just couldn’t rotate through the shot.  
 

By last Sunday I played 9 holes in 15 over par on a course that I’d expect to be 3 over about a year ago on average.  It made me want to cry and give up golf forever.  
 

But a couple trips to my physio to pummel me loose and starting to feel I could rotate through the shot and it’s a lot better today.  I think I realised at the end of the 9 on Sunday that I could rotate through the shot more and that I needed to start doing that again and trusting it.  
 

Driver today still a bit weak - maybe 210-230 average on a half decent one.  Got a few out 240 even. But a mile better than anything else I had done since the surgery.  A 7.4 index performance to show for it, back in the 70’s again and I actually enjoyed it.

 

I don’t know your medical details so can’t advise for sure but it seems sensible if your doctor agrees.  The key thing for me has been trying to get loose and get moving again and a regular firm sports massage wasn’t touching the sides of my locked up shoulders and neck.  
 

My doctor gave a very over optimistic view of how quickly I could golf again.  While true I could turn up and try it wasn’t at all enjoyable and was also painful at the end too.  It was just demoralising and I wish I hadn’t even tried.  
 

I’d say it’s a close to a couple of months plus loads of rehabilitation at least before you feel like you will feel you start to move again.  I feel I have a lot of rehabilitation ahead but at least I can walk 8 miles with no problem again and feel half decent after 18 holes again.  My physio says most patients take 3-6 months before they’re really much better after this surgery and that I’m about where he’d expect at close to 8 weeks in.  

[ewaldbeukes]

13 hours ago, harveythomas said:

My surgeon said everything is screwed tight together and that I could do what I liked after two weeks.  
 

I am now on day 39.   
 

What he didn’t say was how locked up everything would be even after mobilisation exercises.  This makes playing golf to any standard impossible as I just couldn’t rotate through the shot.  
 

By last Sunday I played 9 holes in 15 over par on a course that I’d expect to be 3 over about a year ago on average.  It made me want to cry and give up golf forever.  
 

But a couple trips to my physio to pummel me loose and starting to feel I could rotate through the shot and it’s a lot better today.  I think I realised at the end of the 9 on Sunday that I could rotate through the shot more and that I needed to start doing that again and trusting it.  
 

Driver today still a bit weak - maybe 210-230 average on a half decent one.  Got a few out 240 even. But a mile better than anything else I had done since the surgery.  A 7.4 index performance to show for it, back in the 70’s again and I actually enjoyed it.

 

I don’t know your medical details so can’t advise for sure but it seems sensible if your doctor agrees.  The key thing for me has been trying to get loose and get moving again and a regular firm sports massage wasn’t touching the sides of my locked up shoulders and neck.  
 

My doctor gave a very over optimistic view of how quickly I could golf again.  While true I could turn up and try it wasn’t at all enjoyable and was also painful at the end too.  It was just demoralising and I wish I hadn’t even tried.  
 

I’d say it’s a close to a couple of months plus loads of rehabilitation at least before you feel like you will feel you start to move again.  I feel I have a lot of rehabilitation ahead but at least I can walk 8 miles with no problem again and feel half decent after 18 holes again.  My physio says most patients take 3-6 months before they’re really much better after this surgery and that I’m about where he’d expect at close to 8 weeks in.  

Hey, 

 

Appreciate all the insights you have given and the real level of feedback. That stiffness must be terrible and I do hope continued physio and recover gets you right back to better than you were! 

 

Also sounds like your physio has a better grasp of the recover timelines than your surgeon haha. Sadly, I had a new scan and where we were looking to fuse 1-2 levels my degeneration has gotten worse... now the surgeon doesnt want to operate as he either cannot ensure a decent outcome or he needs to fuse 7 levels. So I am back in the woods again on my own on this one... seems like I have to live with the pain until I have neurological issues and then fuse everything (or hope there is advances in technology in the coming months / years). So no idea what to do - perhaps start googling how to play golf with no neck movement! 

 

It does sound like you are getting to a better place so keep us updated, we are rooting for a solid recovery for you and back to proper golf sooner rather than later. 

[harveythomas]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:38 PM, ewaldbeukes said:

Hey, 

 

Appreciate all the insights you have given and the real level of feedback. That stiffness must be terrible and I do hope continued physio and recover gets you right back to better than you were! 

 

Also sounds like your physio has a better grasp of the recover timelines than your surgeon haha. Sadly, I had a new scan and where we were looking to fuse 1-2 levels my degeneration has gotten worse... now the surgeon doesnt want to operate as he either cannot ensure a decent outcome or he needs to fuse 7 levels. So I am back in the woods again on my own on this one... seems like I have to live with the pain until I have neurological issues and then fuse everything (or hope there is advances in technology in the coming months / years). So no idea what to do - perhaps start googling how to play golf with no neck movement! 

 

It does sound like you are getting to a better place so keep us updated, we are rooting for a solid recovery for you and back to proper golf sooner rather than later. 

 

I am sorry to read your news.  I have major degeneration all over but he’s just done the one level that was squeezing my spinal cord very badly.  I hope yours is not worse than mine.  
 

I have to manage my back carefully since I was in my early 40’s and I’m nearly 60 now so hopefully you’ll keep going at least until then.  Lots of physio exercises on core and to help mobility over the years.  
 

I had been seeing the surgeon for 15 years and he’d always advised to avoid surgery as long as possible and only suggested it when the cervical stenosis got very bad and even then we’d monitored it for several years after it first looked awful on the imaging.  
 

I saw the surgeon today for my 8 week check up and x-rays.  My early return to golf hadn’t hurt the fusion (as he advised at the time) but I explained that for future patients he should advise they could play but it would be miserable until they loosen up after 6-8 weeks so probably it was worth planning for a longer lay off than he suggested.  

 

He thinks the problem down my left leg was caused by a small prolapse in my low back -  my physio reckons they were rough moving me around during the surgery causing that but even that’s improving slowly and it’s impossible to prove.  
 

I am slowly getting my golf swing back and hoping to start getting the handicap down again.  I played 3 times last week and starting to hit the ball much better again.  I’d say it’s a 7-8 weeks before playing golf without too much pain again based on my experience and a lot of rehab before I’m really moving well again.  But I’m getting there. 

[harveythomas]

I’m now over 12 weeks on from my surgery.  
 

I started going heavier on my rehabilitation work about 4 weeks ago and I’ve had brief windows in that time when I felt a fair bit better although I’ve started very gently to keep the soreness down but the last few days have been pretty awful again.

 

in general terms I’m still not able to do any regular practice for my full swing and playing can prove difficult.  Carrying my clubs when a trolley ban is on is very problematic afterwards and seems to have caused this latest set back after my game on Saturday.  

 

I can’t move freely in my swing most of the time and it’s still much harder than before my surgery even though my surgeon declared it all a success 4 weeks back and said I could do what I wished.  My yardages on average are still 20-30 yards down with my driver which is very frustrating.  
 

I have a bit less neck pain than before but it’s still stiff.  The rest of my back is notably worse on average though.  In general I’d say avoid this surgery at all costs unless you are in danger of severe permanent nerve damage/paralysis ( allegedly I was headed that way based on the progression over 2 years on mri scans) and have run out of options.  
 

I still hope to get back to enjoying golf but it looks like more of a long term mission now (maybe another 6-12 months) than I hoped and I may have to accept my days of single figure golf are over.  I’m also working hard using an app designed for chronic pain management although to limited benefit so far.  I shall persevere.  

[harveythomas]

Latest update is that my back is so bad now I haven’t been able to play for over two weeks.  
 

I think my psoas got very tight and weak resting after surgery which may be a big factor.  I’ve started doing precision movement exercises for it on you tube plus a selection of others.  Starting to feel better so if I don’t break down I may try golf again next week.

 

It’s been a very tough 14 weeks or so.  

[ewaldbeukes]

18 hours ago, harveythomas said:

Latest update is that my back is so bad now I haven’t been able to play for over two weeks.  
 

I think my psoas got very tight and weak resting after surgery which may be a big factor.  I’ve started doing precision movement exercises for it on you tube plus a selection of others.  Starting to feel better so if I don’t break down I may try golf again next week.

 

It’s been a very tough 14 weeks or so.  

Thanks for keeping us posted with your journey, sounds like a tough one to day and we trust it will start getting better. 

 

Are you going to try chipping / putting or a short course? Or straight back into normal golf?

[harveythomas]

Nothing at the moment.   I could chip and putt but just fed up with even thinking about the fact I can’t play golf anymore.  
 

I hope this will change but it’s proving a very difficult journey.  I’m really quite disabled on and off since this surgery so far.  

[mikpga]

Pertaining to cervical…

 

Utilize lateral flexion of cervical spine, aka, neck tilts…

 

Lead ear down from P1 to P4 and then trail ear down from P5 to P8…

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, harveythomas said:

Nothing at the moment.   I could chip and putt but just fed up with even thinking about the fact I can’t play golf anymore.  
 

I hope this will change but it’s proving a very difficult journey.  I’m really quite disabled on and off since this surgery so far.  

 

One member here who posted on the first page of this thread, @E2EGOLFER53 , has 11 fused vertebrae.  He uses a swing invented by Jack Kuykendall, and still plays.  You have to accept the fact that you have a disability and should adopt a swing that is appropriate to your disability. 

Jack K's swing is not pretty.  But if it was the only way I could golf, I'd use it. His marketing style is hard to take, and his website looks like something from 1993, but just ignore it and consider testing his swing.  

 

https://www.kggolf.net/