Easy swing technique for high handicap golfers ready to try something different

[golfarb1]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

It's the bending of the tendons few people know about 

Tendons can recoil elastically much faster than muscles can shorten.It is this recoil that allow animals to jump so high . 

Do you have any references on increasing tendon recoil in the golf swing ? 

[Nickc]

I am being dumb but where is the explanation of this swing theory in the "signature" ...or by just clicking on Chipa's avatar/name am I going to the wrong place.

[ThinkingPlus]

4 hours ago, Nickc said:

I am being dumb but where is the explanation of this swing theory in the "signature" ...or by just clicking on Chipa's avatar/name am I going to the wrong place.

This is it: 

Technique:

1. Hogan -  Active leg tension, 2. Forward press, 3. Torres - club over right shoulder 

Only swing thought - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder

 

[chipa]

6 hours ago, Nickc said:

I am being dumb but where is the explanation of this swing theory in the "signature" ...or by just clicking on Chipa's avatar/name am I going to the wrong place.

 

I responded to your question about the forward press and also posted a more in depth explanation of our technique earlier in the thread see below. Our technique has no other mechanics and certainly not anything once the downswing starts. Compared to other techniques out there I would say our is closer to Manuel de la Torres concept, with the following exceptions. One the takeaway is left hand dominant and right hand passive as taught by many pros including Bobby Jones, two, the legs are setup in a way that they can brace naturally and three, we are focused on the tension in our legs before the swing starts and the tension in our upper left arm at the sleeve at the top. Ben Hogan discussed the same leg tension in fact that is where I got the idea from. Also, stretching the left shirt sleeve is a very old technique as well.

 

My friend Javiers over the top move goes away when he does the technique correctly. I have never told him to shallow the club or hold his right shoulder back. I have told him he needs to reach his left arm across his body to over his right shoulder and keep his legs resisting together somewhat (it shouldn't hurt any more than a slight squat and jump) and the combination of the two will trap the right arm underneath the left so that the arms have to drop before the right side can effectively apply force, at least this is my perception. Hence Javier's over the top slice turns into a draw and his clubhead speed increases around 10 mph or more, plus now that the clubface is closed the ball goes lower to the right and draws back and runs when it hits the ground.

 

"For those persons interested, as my signature explains our technique is very simple, based on Hogan's active leg tension, doing a forward press to start the swing and then stretching the left shirt sleeve as we reach our left hand over our right shoulder as Manuel de La Torres taught, and there are no downswing thoughts.

 

Our setup has the weight mostly centered but just a little bit more on the right side and also on the front of the feet. The head is displaced slightly to the right of the spine and the hands slightly to the left of the spine about the same distance. Neither can be too far from center because it has a tendency to break down the leg tension. The butt of the left hand must sit on the butt of the grip as demonstrated by Mike Austins video. This gives the left arm and wrist the flexibility needed for it to reach across the body and over the right shoulder."

Edited December 11, 2022 by chipa

[hammersia]

On 12/10/2022 at 1:37 AM, chipa said:

 

There are studies of the baseball and tennis swing that discuss this. I have stumbled upon it due to my back injury that forces to keep my lower back tight plus reading about Hogans "leg tension". I started golf at 30 years old but have approached  130 swing speed. My only goal is to share this with other golfers who are trying to get better just like me and my buddy Javier. Look at my swing mechanics and judge for yourself. Our technique is not that difficult but the setup and takeaway are meticulous. There are no downsing thoughts. I feel like that I could hit over 120 mph with my health conditions with a 47" driver. I think that says something regarding this technique's efficiency. 

130mph clubhead speed  is off the bottom of the Trackman chart, but 120mph would put you right on an optimised 300 carry. 
 

Too late now, but my suggestion would have been to leave clubhead speed numbers off of your posts because that’s where a fair bit of scepticism is coming from in this thread. 

[chipa]

53 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Too late now, but my suggestion would have been to leave clubhead speed numbers off of your posts because that’s where a fair bit of scepticism is coming from in this thread. 

 

If you look at the longest guys on the forum that aren't instructors you'll see they say hands down that there can be no downswing thoughts nor contrived downswing postions because they limit clubhead speed. I feel this type of instruction may help those that fight an over the top move but they all will ultimately limit one's maximum God-given potential.

 

Also, if you look into these type of swing theories you will find no mention of the leg tension that Hogan advocated.  If you know of such an instructor I would appreciate it posting their info. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by chipa

[tt81621]

Good for you!!  The golf swing should be an athletic motion.  Love you are not thinking about anything coming down.  Whatever works!!!!  I have been following thread after thread for the past decade.  None of them are correct or incorrect.  Even the "best teacher" have yet to unlock the secret.  Heck half of the "new swing theories" are disproven given enough time. 

 

I am a mid 50's 10 handicap hack.  Contorted my body every way possible.  Who is to say what is right or wrong.  Whatever works for you!!!!

 

You mind a brief explanation of stretching the left sleeve?  I think I get the other aspects.  

 

Thanks

Edited December 11, 2022 by tt81621
spelling

[chipa]

22 minutes ago, tt81621 said:

Good for you!!  The golf swing should be an athletic motion.  Love you are not thinking about anything coming down.  Whatever works!!!!  I have been following thread after thread for the past decade.  None of them are correct or incorrect.  Even the "best teacher" have yet to unlock the secret.  Heck half of the "new swing theories" are disproven given enough time. 

 

I am a mid 50's 10 handicap hack.  Contorted my body every way possible.  Who is to say what is right or wrong.  Whatever works for you!!!!

 

You mind a brief explanation of stretching the left sleeve?  I think I get the other aspects.  

 

Thanks

 

The shirt sleeve technique is something I read about in the 90's in Golf Digest. They had a list of swing thoughts that the pros used. Basically, the top of the backswing is pushing the upper left arm away from the body as the feet are resiting in the opposite direction. It must be flexible tension and must not hurt. Also, the left shoulder will "adduct" ie go forward in relation to the chest allowing the left arm to turn and reach across the body. This left arm and shoulder postion allows room for the right arm to swing "under" the left. The left shoulder will looked "stretched" from the joint back across the body in this postion. All pros have their arm in this postion when the left arm is the 7 oclock postion on the downswing. 

[tt81621]

9 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

The shirt sleeve technique is something I read about in the 90's in Golf Digest. They had a list of swing thoughts that the pros used. Basically, the top of the backswing is pushing the upper left arm away from the body as the feet are resiting in the opposite direction. It must be flexible tension and must not hurt. Also, the left shoulder will "adduct" ie go forward in relation to the chest allowing the left arm to turn and reach across the body. This left arm and shoulder postion allows room for the right arm to swing "under" the left. The left shoulder will looked "stretched" from the joint back across the body in this postion. All pros have their arm in this postion when the left arm is the 7 oclock postion on the downswing. 

 

Got it.  Thank you!!!!

[hammersia]

4 hours ago, hammersia said:

130mph clubhead speed  is off the bottom of the Trackman chart, but 120mph would put you right on an optimised 300 carry. 
 

Too late now, but my suggestion would have been to leave clubhead speed numbers off of your posts because that’s where a fair bit of scepticism is coming from in this thread. 

What I’m saying is, and I wish you well and enjoyment with your golf, and also distance isn’t everything, but there’s no way the swing you posted is even 95mph let alone 120 or 130mph. 
 

if you were using the blue or red swing speed radar device then I suggest an upgrade is required, try an R10 for example, might be an eye opener. And would be accurate enough to help you optimise your action.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, hammersia said:

What I’m saying is, and I wish you well and enjoyment with your golf, and also distance isn’t everything, but there’s no way the swing you posted is even 95mph let alone 120 or 130mph. 
 

if you were using the blue or red swing speed radar device then I suggest an upgrade is required, try an R10 for example, might be an eye opener. And would be accurate enough to help you optimise your action.

 

I have measured my drives on Google maps over the years.  I also have had my swing speed measured in various golf shops over the years.

 

I don't have a radar but a friend has a Trackman so when I can play with him I'll record my swing and the Trackman results.

Edited December 11, 2022 by chipa

[jmevox]

If you take a video of you hitting 130mph swings speed on trackman,  i will be a paying student. Ill pay a lot. I mean a lot. Enough to pay for Javier’s kids’ college tuitions. 

[SE Gamer]

37 minutes ago, jmevox said:

If you take a video of you hitting 130mph swings speed on trackman,  i will be a paying student. Ill pay a lot. I mean a lot. Enough to pay for Javier’s kids’ college tuitions. 

You might want to throw some stipulations on that "bet"...

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, hammersia said:

What I’m saying is, and I wish you well and enjoyment with your golf, and also distance isn’t everything, but there’s no way the swing you posted is even 95mph let alone 120 or 130mph. 
 

if you were using the blue or red swing speed radar device then I suggest an upgrade is required, try an R10 for example, might be an eye opener. And would be accurate enough to help you optimise your action.

I am skeptical as well but wasn’t the swing video posted on page 1 that of Javier….not @chipa?

[chipa]

1 hour ago, jmevox said:

If you take a video of you hitting 130mph swings speed on trackman,  i will be a paying student. Ill pay a lot. I mean a lot. Enough to pay for Javier’s kids’ college tuitions. 

 

I said I should approach 120 with a 47" driver, not 130. I am 57 years old with limited lower back flexibility. This is based on me reaching 110 with my 43" 3 wood, so 4 additional inches should get me around 122 mph. I drove into the greenside bunker at our course and it measured 300 yards from the front tees, there was a 2-3 club wind, the very same wind I hit into on the prior hole about 225 and about 60 feet uphill. My normal 3deep wood goes around 260 w/roll.

 

Why don't you try my technique and see for yourself what you can do? It will take the time to get used to feeling the muscles resist, especially the legs but after a while the body will adjust. Hogan talked about this as well. I had an over the top swing until I read Hogans book in the 90's and it took many years to make it work on demand. My two biggest flaws were the weight was on the back of my feet and the one piece takeaway, but the forward press changed that.

 

 

[chipa]

I have been planning to post more videos regarding our technique but unfortunately I still am having back and knee issues. Nonetheless, I am practicing more regularly now and hope to have some videos with clubhead speed launch conditions using the Shotvision app.

 

Also, I have been thinking about content to post about so that this technique is more readily understood. This method is focused on the setup and initial takeaway to ensure the proper mechanics and loading that enables one to swing freely after than with no downswing manipulations. Also, given that the leg tension is built into the setup and preswing routine there is no real active thoughts once the backswing has started.

 

I would say that this method features elements seen in some pro golfers swings, but the sequencing and loading is different from most pro swings. Most pros start the swing by turning the shoulder, abdomen and hips together as one unit which causes the legs and lower back to lack any real tension until the weight is shifted to the right side. This is what I believe is the most difficult move for most amateurs to make. Nonetheless, our technique sets up in such a way that this leg and lower back tension is maintained. Freddy Couples and Matthew Wolff both have similar techniques, in fact both go outside the line to start for the simple reason is the club cannot go to the inside if the legs and hips hold still initially. The advantage for the novice golfer is that letting the weight move to the right side then "catching" this weight and holding it with the right leg and hip is no longer necessary.

 

The other essential piece than makes this technique work is the left shoulder adduction, which also is rarely seen in amateurs. Nonetheless, with our legs setup the left shoulder adduction becomes much easier. The "test" of this technique is the downswing position seen in every pros swing I have ever seen where the left arm is at parallel or a little lower and the right elbow is pointing down and often can be seen from the front. At this point in the swing pros the elbows are close together and the left shoulder is visibly extended back away from the target. Most amateurs at this point in the downswing have the left elbow much farther forward than the right and there is little or no apparent left shoulder stretching back away from the target. I feel that having the legs resist initially allows one to adduct the left shoulder much more naturally which in addition requires the downswing to start with a squat and push from the right side while the left side tension releases at the same time, from this point with the left arm stretched back across the body when the arms lower enough the right hand and elbow are in a good position to apply a great deal of leverage naturally, thus allowing this technique to enable golfers to swing close to the maximum potential clubhead speed based on their personal strength and flexibility.

 

The advantage of this technique is that while the setup and the way the club is gripped is meticulous the backswing is very simple and only requires a focus on stretching the left shirt sleeve at the shoulder. Over time the golfer will start to feel this more naturally as opposed to being a manufactured movement.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by chipa

[Mike412]

I’ll admit it it. I’ve read every post and if I wanted to try this I’d have no clue how to go about it.

 

This is an honest constructive criticism. If you want to share your technique, assume no one knows who Hogan or Torres even is. Start from the beginning and explain in detail the the techniques and explain every term you use. This is why instructional videos are so popular, it’s hard to go into enough detail in writing.

 

Like I said I’m only tying to help and I’d even give it a shot but as of right now I’m not confident that I would be doing anything close to what’s in your head. This advice comes from years of training in how to deliver clear instruction and training related to physical activities to students that have no understanding of the subject or technique being taught.

 

I’ll also add just watching someone swing does nothing. Feels vs reals. I’ve watched Tiger swing for years but I’ve yet to win a major.

 

Start from the beginning and setup and explain it like every part of it is your original technique that no one has ever heard of and thoroughly explain how, when, how much, feels, positions, sequence, etc.. You seem like you genuinely want to help folks and that’s great! I’ll be happy to try it as soon as I’m confident that what I think you’re saying is really what you are saying. Otherwise it’s not worth the time if it’s only partially correct.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Mike412 said:

I’ll admit it it. I’ve read every post and if I wanted to try this I’d have no clue how to go about it.

 

This is an honest constructive criticism. If you want to share your technique, assume no one knows who Hogan or Torres even is. Start from the beginning and explain in detail the the techniques and explain every term you use. This is why instructional videos are so popular, it’s hard to go into enough detail in writing.

 

Like I said I’m only tying to help and I’d even give it a shot but as of right now I’m not confident that I would be doing anything close to what’s in your head. This advice comes from years of training in how to deliver clear instruction and training related to physical activities to students that have no understanding of the subject or technique being taught.

 

I’ll also add just watching someone swing does nothing. Feels vs reals. I’ve watched Tiger swing for years but I’ve yet to win a major.

 

Start from the beginning and setup and explain it like every part of it is your original technique that no one has ever heard of and thoroughly explain how, when, how much, feels, positions, sequence, etc.. You seem like you genuinely want to help folks and that’s great! I’ll be happy to try it as soon as I’m confident that what I think you’re saying is really what you are saying. Otherwise it’s not worth the time if it’s only partially correct.

 

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I will follow your advice and start posting more info, with videos later on.

[chipa]

Setup with Hogans "Active leg tension":

 

First, a description of Hogans "active leg tension" as well as his concept of leg mechanics. Hogan described the legs during setup as feeling lively and active - springy, athletic or dynamic are also terms that also come to mind. I have learned the weight must be distributed evenly between the feet in order to consistently enable the legs have this feeling.

 

Second, Hogan describe the leg action as being very important in that the left knee must kick in to the right knee as opposed to forward during the backswing. This is something I think all pros do as well as far as I can tell, however, Hogan seems to have placed much more importance on this that almost any golf instruction I have seen in almost 30 years. Also, I have learned over time that it is much easier to obtain the Hogan knee/leg action by being on the balls of the feet with the heels even barely on this ground. I first heard of this technique watching a video by Rocco Mediate promoting this technique. 

 

With this in mind here is the Setup sequence:

 

1. Setup to the ball with hands barely holding the club with a very loose grip mostly open and the arms bent significantly at the elbows and with the weight toward the balls of the feet. The heels can actually be off the ground and I find this is not does not cause any problems but actually is a great help in learning Hogans preferred leg action. Walter Hagen and Rocco Mediate had/have a similar setup. Step the right foot/leg back slightly away from the target without changing the weight distribution significantly. The weight should be slightly more on the right side. Pulling the right leg back was part of Hogan's instruction. It should look more angled from the front than the left leg.

 

2. The head should be slightly and comfortably displaced to the right of the spine - but dont move the spine only shift the head slightly. Turning the head slightly to the right can accomplish this as well. The hands should be slightly to the left of the spine about the same distance. The goal of this is to maintain the weight still evenly distributed between both legs on the front of the feet.

 

3. As mentioned the arms must be bent and soft as well with no tension in the hands up to both shoulders. Most amateurs grips are so tight they break down the elastic connections in the rest of the body thus making it impossible to generate significant clubhead speed. While the arms are soft nonetheless the arms should be slight forward on the chest so that the forearms can press against eachother on the shaft with the hands still very loose. This will help not only the right side from breaking down but also for the arms separating too much on the backswing by the right hand or shoulder pulling back, which is very common.

 

4. The grip is the Mike Austin grip as explained in his instructional video. This has been probably the hardest thing for me to learn, ie the heel of the left hand must sit on top of the grip, with the fingers just wrapping around the shaft w/o changing the composition of the left heel on top of the grip. It may not inspire confidence but this grip is essential in order to get easy extension of the arm and shoulder on the backswing. This is of utmost importance to get the left elbow as far away from the left shoulder (with the left shoulder adducting as well) as possible so that a whole lot of room is left for the right hand and elbow to swing from the inside. I believe this grip enables the muscles on the outside of the hand and arm up to the shoulder to extend much more effectively than a palm grip.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by chipa

[Tanner25]

Chipa, I see you have back and knee problems. Be careful. I started many years ago following a tip by Sevam1 where you screw in your right foot into the ground at address, preventing a sway. Ever since then, I've had a chronic knee problem. Feel well! 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Tanner25

[chipa]

59 minutes ago, Tanner25 said:

Chipa, I see you have back and knee problems. Be careful. I started many years ago following a tip by Sevam1 where you screw in your right foot into the ground at address, preventing a sway. Ever since then, I've had a chronic knee problem. Feel well! 

 

Tanner, thanks for the advice. I have tried this as well and hurt my knee many years ago doing this same technique. In the late 90's Hogan apparently said that his real secret was never to move the right leg. Nonetheless, I have learned that both legs must resist to be effective. Also, our technique doesn't promote rigid legs, only actively resisting like taking a small hop. Also, we aren't consciously trying to resist with our legs during the backswing. That is built into the setup and pre-swign routine which I will discuss soon. Thanks for your input.

[chipa]

The grip, hand and arm mechanics 

 

As mentioned earlier the grip is the Mike Austin method where the butt of the left hand sits on the top part of the grip and the fingers grip the club w/o changing the relationship of the left hand to the shaft. For those that have never tried this it will probably feel a little insecure and its as if the left hand stays on top of the shaft during the backswing. Nonetheless, this technique with a few other things I will mention will help with poor release mechanics, something I was plagued with for many years.

 

As also mentioned the left hand must be slightly forward of the spine but not so much that the weight is not kept more or less distributed evenly and the arms must be forward on the chest with the forearms pressing the hands on the shaft against eachother slightly. This creates an arbitrary connection of the arms in front of the body with the center of rotation not being the spine but slightly forward of the spine where the hands meet. This will help build in the proper mechanics of the hands dropping on the downswing w/o flipping over until right before impact. Nonetheless, the rolling over of the hands is not a conscious effort but again due to the mechanics of the rest of the body during the downswing. In fact the right hand feels as if it doing nothing until at impact.

 

[chipa]

The pre-swing routine:

 

The pre-swign routine's purpose is not necessarily hand and arm mechanics, in fact the mechanics are slightly different than the backswing method, but rather this is to feel the legs resisting on the front of the feet and the left shirt sleeve stretching.

 

We take 3-5 consecutive very short backswings without stopping back and forth and the hands can come off the club lightly because we are focusing on the feet holding a certain amount of pressure. It will probably feel like the legs aren't moving but in fact they will move. The legs shouldn't be tight anymore than they would if one was taking a few small hops. On the fourth swing the focus is at the end to extend the left arm at the shirt sleeve and at this point the legs will probably resist w/o thinking about it. From there we more or less quickly get into position and make a swing. Therefore, focusing on the legs resisting during the backswing is not necessary. See video below.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by chipa

[chipa]

The swing

 

With the proper leg resistance fresh in our minds from doing a practice swing we quickly address the ball as mentioned earlier with the elbows bent and the club as a consequence at least 6 to 8 inches above the ball. The legs should feel "active" and ready to go and we need to be carefully that the grip pressure nor the hands being too far forward both causing the legs to break down.

 

From there we lower are hands and the clubhead to the ball while doing a forward press to get the back of the left hand close to being flat, it will also probably rotate over a little, from there at this point we are now focusing on stretching the left upper arm at the shirt sleeve (getting the upper left arm away from the body) as the left hand goes to over the right shoulder more or less. This isn't a conscious decision to change the plane only get it pointed to over the right shoulder. Nonetheless, doing this should not cause the grip to break down nor the legs but within the constraints of keeping things flexible and connected. The downswing has no swing thoughts. The legs unloading as well as the left shoulder adducting will automatically restrict the downswing path just as stretching a rubber band and releasing it will cause it to start out in the opposite direction of the force applied. More specifically the legs will naturally release with a lateral move to the target like most pros as this tension is released and when enough weight is on the left side the left arm and shoulder will pull down automatically defining the downswing path.

 

As with any method this one requires practice. However, most of the technique is in the setup, grip and hand and arm mechanics. Furthermore, I don't really consider the forward press as part of the backswing, just a trigger, so therefore once this is done the only thoughts are to extend the left upper arm at the shirt sleeve.

 

There are intangible aspects that every golfer will have to learn, and its mostly feel. What I mean to say is once the golfers starts to feel his legs resisting naturally this will build automatic constraints into his backswing. The same goes with the dynamics of the left upper shoulder and arm loading and where the hands should end up at the top of the backswing so that the most powerful and connected downswing path can be found.

 

In summary, this is a mixture of technical and feel at setup but all feel during the actual swing, after all the extension of the upper left arm is a "feel" move and is something I had read many years ago that some pros used at the top of the backswing.

 

 

[Nickc]

What do you mean by the legs resisting?

[chipa]

2 hours ago, Nickc said:

What do you mean by the legs resisting?

 

Good morning. The tension in the legs would be the same if you were taking small hops, or running in place or hopping from side to side a little. The real way to feel this is to do the practice swing as described and shown in the video. It should feel like the legs aren't moving but they will because it's flexible tension, not rigid.

 

In order for this to work the club must be gripped with the butt of the hand on the top of the grip and the arms rolled forward on the chest slightly so a connection is created between the arms and hands. The grip must be very light and its ok if the left hand opens on the backswing like Bobby Jones shows in his instructional videos. The point of the practice swing is to feel the legs and a tight grip will break that down easily.

[Jeselnik]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:40 PM, Krt22 said:

Just look at this backswing position. The muscles and tendons are fully folded and loaded, the arms around the neck for max power accumlation. The huge sway off the ball ensures a positive AoA for max distance. Pure, effortless power 

 

Learn sidebend.

 

[Tanner25]

2 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

Learn sidebend.

 

 

 

Makes sense. But, can the average -high-handicap- golfer execute these 3 motions in the backswing?

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, Tanner25 said:

Makes sense. But, can the average -high-handicap- golfer execute these 3 motions in the backswing?

 

Yes.

[chipa]

My friend Javier is 56 years old and took up golf for the first time 2 years ago. We only practice once a month as we are both busy with work and our families.

 

Javier started like most golfers with an over the top move as would be expected. Nonetheless, using the technique that we have worked both to develop over the last couple of years allows Javier to hit from the inside and play a natural draw. I have never told Javier to shallow the club nor for that matter anything about the swing plane.

 

The video of Javier shows him at the beginning of our round and he was still trying to get used to "Hogans' angled right leg". Javier has a problem resisting with his legs as do most golfers, hence we came up with the focus on the stance pressure and practice swing. Nonetheless, when he gets it right his distance surprises both of us, he easily hits his 3 wood 50 or 60 yards farther.

 

As far as his side bend, this I believe is Javier's attempt to get the left arm away from the shoulder and his lower back wasn't really connected well to his legs, nor did his legs resist particularly well in this video. Nonetheless, he gets it right sometimes of course. The advantage of our swing  is it is feel based, once Javier starts to feel his legs resist it will stay with him. Hogan discussed this as well. Take care.

Edited March 24, 2023 by chipa