A bit lost on my swing…early extension?

[glk]

I would say you need to awaken your legs and learn how to shift and turn.

 

This video is not intended for you to do the drills but rather to explain how the shift and turn works in the backswing and downswing - it is 57 minutes long and can be watched in segments rather than all at once.      Legs need to actively push the ground outward and downward 

On Dr Kwon's playlist he has drills if you are interested - getting a rope would be a good idea in general.

 

Step drills are good too but need to be done properly - BeBetterGolf has those video with Dr Kwon where he walked Brendon thru the step drills - Dr Kwon has moved away from early introduction of the step drills to first introducing the shurn rhythm with just arms or a rope before doing any steps and more typically now uses stage 3 which involves no steps and just the swing forward trigger (typically coupled with saying Vijaaaaay Singh - he has another hour video with Taylor using the driver and they do this).    Me I find doing the shurn, rope, and one arm swings drills on his playlist and then stage 3 are sufficient.     Props - a good rope, 10 lb weight, maybe an orange whip, and maybe a pressure board is all one needs.   

 

 Finding an instructor aligned with this would be a big help - Dr Kwon has lists of instructors by state on his website or you can try to sign up and do a reprogramming session.

 

 

 

[Bogey2Better]

4 hours ago, glk said:

I would say you need to awaken your legs and learn how to shift and turn.

 

This video is not intended for you to do the drills but rather to explain how the shift and turn works in the backswing and downswing - it is 57 minutes long and can be watched in segments rather than all at once.      Legs need to actively push the ground outward and downward 

On Dr Kwon's playlist he has drills if you are interested - getting a rope would be a good idea in general.

 

Step drills are good too but need to be done properly - BeBetterGolf has those video with Dr Kwon where he walked Brendon thru the step drills - Dr Kwon has moved away from early introduction of the step drills to first introducing the shurn rhythm with just arms or a rope before doing any steps and more typically now uses stage 3 which involves no steps and just the swing forward trigger (typically coupled with saying Vijaaaaay Singh - he has another hour video with Taylor using the driver and they do this).    Me I find doing the shurn, rope, and one arm swings drills on his playlist and then stage 3 are sufficient.     Props - a good rope, 10 lb weight, maybe an orange whip, and maybe a pressure board is all one needs.   

 

 Finding an instructor aligned with this would be a big help - Dr Kwon has lists of instructors by state on his website or you can try to sign up and do a reprogramming session.

 

 

 

Thanks @glk! I’ll watch this video and look for instructors. I haven’t fully seen how his work aligns with Monte, AMG, and others. Granted, there are only a handful of YT folks I trust.
 

There was actually one range session in between the staying left attempt and most recent. Once I realized I was way too stiff and not being athletic I found Dr Kwon’s videos with BeBetterGolf. I think I only watched 1 and 2 but have the others open. I did the X or two step drill to try and get some movement back in the swing. When looking back though I thought I saw sway coming back. (Before I tried to shorten arm overrun as well.)
 

I actually did get an orange whip as well. Never been a training aid guy but bought an orange whip, smart ball, and planemate the last month or so.

 

I’ll watch the video and try to get my lower body working properly. It’s tough to get the right pressure shift and hip motion. Seems like it’s a one or the other for me. 
 

Do I need to do the rope drill if I have the orange whip? I did see that video with Dr Kwon too. If you think both are valuable and different it’s only another $20. 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Bogey2Better
Added arm overrun comment.

[glk]

10 hours ago, Bogey2Better said:

Thanks @glk! I’ll watch this video and look for instructors. I haven’t fully seen how his work aligns with Monte, AMG, and others. Granted, there are only a handful of YT folks I trust.
 

There was actually one range session in between the staying left attempt and most recent. Once I realized I was way too stiff and not being athletic I found Dr Kwon’s videos with BeBetterGolf. I think I only watched 1 and 2 but have the others open. I did the X or two step drill to try and get some movement back in the swing. When looking back though I thought I saw sway coming back. (Before I tried to shorten arm overrun as well.)
 

I actually did get an orange whip as well. Never been a training aid guy but bought an orange whip, smart ball, and planemate the last month or so.

 

I’ll watch the video and try to get my lower body working properly. It’s tough to get the right pressure shift and hip motion. Seems like it’s a one or the other for me. 
 

Do I need to do the rope drill if I have the orange whip? I did see that video with Dr Kwon too. If you think both are valuable and different it’s only another $20. 

 

 

Adding a rope would be good.   Me, I would start here - using the club at times can work against learning motion - this is pretty typical way to train - use body only and do things slowly, then add an aid - swing a weight, then a rope, then a club.   

 

 

 

And just to throw in a bit of information about how long it can take to have the brain make a change once a pattern has been learned.   You also may want to check out game like training folks - they have lots of good stuff on effectively practicing - spacing, variablity,and challenge.

 

[glk]

On instructors,  Todd Casabella teaches outside Cleveland and Brian Pate teaches in Phoenix/Tahoe (winter/summer).   I know Todd does remote lessons (live via zoom or skype versus sending a video) but not sure of Brian.    And also Dana Dahlquist in Long Beach.   And Mark Grace from Memphis.

[Bogey2Better]

4/30 videos. 
 

Bit of an off day today. Just focused on shorter backswing and trying to get right elbow more in front. Will start working on lower body after @MonteScheinblum video review.

 

4.30 Face On Iron

 

DTL 4.30 Iron

 

 

[slytown]

35 minutes ago, Bogey2Better said:

4/30 videos. 
 

Bit of an off day today. Just focused on shorter backswing and trying to get right elbow more in front. Will start working on lower body after @MonteScheinblum video review.

 

4.30 Face On Iron

 

DTL 4.30 Iron

 

 

 

Yea, the backswing is nice. but its still not translating to a good downswing. Remember the transition sequence: pressure shift, arms down, turn through. It still looks like you turn first and have early extension.

[Bogey2Better]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

Yea, the backswing is nice. but its still not translating to a good downswing. Remember the transition sequence: pressure shift, arms down, turn through. It still looks like you turn first and have early extension.

Totally agree! Can’t find the balance between athletic pressure shift and sway. I’d imagine that will be one of the first things after Monte does a swing analysis. When I do Dr Kwon movements or other drills I overdo it. 
 

Shortening the backswing the last couple of weeks appears to have reduced arm run-off. Right elbow/arms earlier also got my hands in a better spot in front of my hip on the downswing. I know those aren’t my biggest issues but felt like something I could tackle until getting additional help. 
 

[GoGoErky]

4 hours ago, Bogey2Better said:

Totally agree! Can’t find the balance between athletic pressure shift and sway. I’d imagine that will be one of the first things after Monte does a swing analysis. When I do Dr Kwon movements or other drills I overdo it. 
 

Shortening the backswing the last couple of weeks appears to have reduced arm run-off. Right elbow/arms earlier also got my hands in a better spot in front of my hip on the downswing. I know those aren’t my biggest issues but felt like something I could tackle until getting additional help. 
 

Your arms get away from The body and lift and to me it looks like your left hip comes forward instead of right hip back. Not really the way to shorten a backswing

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, Bogey2Better said:

Shortening the backswing the last couple of weeks appears to have reduced arm run-off. Right elbow/arms earlier also got my hands in a better spot in front of my hip on the downswing. I know those aren’t my biggest issues but felt like something I could tackle until getting additional help. 
 

 

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Your arms get away from The body and lift and to me it looks like your left hip comes forward instead of right hip back. Not really the way to shorten a backswing

To this point, I wanted to bring up alignment and pose the question to @Bogey2Better "where is your intended target here?":



This is a very common pattern. The line along your feet obviously shows where your lower body is aligned (feet and hips), but the line coming from the ball is the trajectory your shot travels, and this is much more in line with you're takeaway and shoulder alignment. You're mismatched here in a way that can make proper lower body movements/sequencing difficult.

If your target is indeed more in line with where you actually hit it in this video then alignment sticks would be recommended to get your feet and hips in line with that target, or even slightly *open* to it. Right now you're excessively closed.

If your target however is in line with your feet and this was in fact a pull then you'll need to adjust your shoulder alignment to square up with your feet which would hopefully neutralize your takeaway a bit by default.

Both of these alignment issues are possible, the former seems to be the most common (closed feet).

From there it is a lot standard reverse rotation lower body stuff (left hip working too forward going back, right hip working to forward in the downswing) that I built some comparison gifs of, but if you haven't spoken with Monte about this stuff yet and/or haven't actually really tried anything new in terms of lower body movements then i'll hold off sharing them unless you're curious. Out of respect for an ongoing process with Monte I don't want to put ideas in your head that might conflict with how he'd chose to cover that topic with you, and i'd just add that your backswing as of the 4/22 is in a good place and you might simply need to introduce some earlier wrist hinge, but i'd defer to Monte on that.

[slytown]

6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

To this point, I wanted to bring up alignment and pose the question to @Bogey2Better "where is your intended target here?":



This is a very common pattern. The line along your feet obviously shows where your lower body is aligned (feet and hips), but the line coming from the ball is the trajectory your shot travels, and this is much more in line with you're takeaway and shoulder alignment. You're mismatched here in a way that can make proper lower body movements/sequencing difficult.

If your target is indeed more in line with where you actually hit it in this video then alignment sticks would be recommended to get your feet and hips in line with that target, or even slightly *open* to it. Right now you're excessively closed.

If your target however is in line with your feet and this was in fact a pull then you'll need to adjust your shoulder alignment to square up with your feet which would hopefully neutralize your takeaway a bit by default.

Both of these alignment issues are possible, the former seems to be the most common (closed feet).

From there it is a lot standard reverse rotation lower body stuff (left hip working too forward going back, right hip working to forward in the downswing) that I built some comparison gifs of, but if you haven't spoken with Monte about this stuff yet and/or haven't actually really tried anything new in terms of lower body movements then i'll hold off sharing them unless you're curious. Out of respect for an ongoing process with Monte I don't want to put ideas in your head that might conflict with how he'd chose to cover that topic with you, and i'd just add that your backswing as of the 4/22 is in a good place and you might simply need to introduce some earlier wrist hinge, but i'd defer to Monte on that.

 

Good point Valtiel. However, would you say setting up closed might help him work on swinging from the inside for awhile? Once he learns to hit a push draw, then he can start bringing the set up more square. I think this is why the flamingo drill is so helpful. If they can't see the ball go right to left and be informed why that happened, they can't get out of the habit of an OTT right to left shot or pull.

 

[Bogey2Better]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Your arms get away from The body and lift and to me it looks like your left hip comes forward instead of right hip back. Not really the way to shorten a backswing

@GoGoErky let me hit on your points.  not at all to attack but to clarify to learn. 
 

1. arms getting away from body

 

I’d agree. Probably due to a little bit of planemate work which has you holding tension in the first part of takeaway and I probably overdid it. Could be shoulder alignment Valtiel mentioned too.

 

2. left hip comes forward

 

i know my transition and downswing hip movement is trash to be blunt. However, in the backswing isn’t it a centered rotation around center of pelvis according to AMG videos? I know you want to feel the right butt cheek going straight back but doesn’t the left have to come forward a bit. Left hip being the hinge is incorrect/overdoing it? 
 

I say that as I just found an app a night ago to analyze my swing and want to be crystal clear what I’m looking for so in between posts here or work with any online instructors I know what to look for.  Without putting a dot on the center of right hip it’s hard to know the different movements as it’s a slight difference.

 

3. Not really shortening

 

not my best swing but if you compare top of backswing face on from more recent vs a few weeks ago you see more 1030 and less 1130 where the last bit was just arms moving after shoulders stopped. 

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, Bogey2Better said:

i know my transition and downswing hip movement is trash to be blunt. However, in the backswing isn’t it a centered rotation around center of pelvis according to AMG videos? I know you want to feel the right butt cheek going straight back but doesn’t the left have to come forward a bit. Left hip being the hinge is incorrect/overdoing it? 

So the left hip is going to come out as a result of the right going back. Your left hip comes out on its own.

 

Yes it’s a rotation around the center of the pelvis but again that’s left hip back and around and then vice versa in the downswing. 
 

Valtiel’d gifs will be able to explain and show you

[Bogey2Better]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

 

To this point, I wanted to bring up alignment and pose the question to @Bogey2Better "where is your intended target here?":



This is a very common pattern. The line along your feet obviously shows where your lower body is aligned (feet and hips), but the line coming from the ball is the trajectory your shot travels, and this is much more in line with you're takeaway and shoulder alignment. You're mismatched here in a way that can make proper lower body movements/sequencing difficult.

If your target is indeed more in line with where you actually hit it in this video then alignment sticks would be recommended to get your feet and hips in line with that target, or even slightly *open* to it. Right now you're excessively closed.

If your target however is in line with your feet and this was in fact a pull then you'll need to adjust your shoulder alignment to square up with your feet which would hopefully neutralize your takeaway a bit by default.

Both of these alignment issues are possible, the former seems to be the most common (closed feet).

From there it is a lot standard reverse rotation lower body stuff (left hip working too forward going back, right hip working to forward in the downswing) that I built some comparison gifs of, but if you haven't spoken with Monte about this stuff yet and/or haven't actually really tried anything new in terms of lower body movements then i'll hold off sharing them unless you're curious. Out of respect for an ongoing process with Monte I don't want to put ideas in your head that might conflict with how he'd chose to cover that topic with you, and i'd just add that your backswing as of the 4/22 is in a good place and you might simply need to introduce some earlier wrist hinge, but i'd defer to Monte on that.

let me first say I always use an alignment stick but I wanted to film a couple shots off grass as the course was on mats again today for no reason! I was annoyed as mats can hide some faults and was trying to move quickly. (I did ask the Marshall to hit a couple on grass and he was cool with it) 

 

That being said I think that was a major pull and probably shoulders misaligned. That darn morning sun makes it hard to really see the face. I’ll go back and look at my face on (two different swings) and see if my shoulders look decent. 
 

I’ve tried some of the drills mentioned and did review the other thread post you tagged me in. I’m just finding it hard to incorporate in the swing. Maybe with an app to analyze I can take a couple of swings with a drill and look to see if the movement is better. Lately if I don’t sway in the backswing I struggle to get moving to the left soon enough. I need to go back and analyze some of my “swaying” swings from earlier in the thread to see how bad it was. (I think second post and then a few from the end in burnt orange polo.) 

 

the other issue related to proper hip movement is when I think about right butt cheek back my hips are done rotating by left arm parallel.

 

[Bogey2Better]

Just now, GoGoErky said:

So the left hip is going to come out as a result of the right going back. Your left hip comes out on its own.

 

Yes it’s a rotation around the center of the pelvis but again that’s left hip back and around and then vice versa in the downswing. 
 

Valtiel’d gifs will be able to explain and show you

Gotcha. Subtle but a difference. Appreciate the follow up. 

[Valtiel]

57 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Valtiel’d gifs will be able to explain and show you

I'll share just this one and leave the "how" to the next Monte lesson:



One of the telltale signs of "too much left hip forward" is what happens to your head position here; down and towards the ball. When you're correctly creating rotation via mainly right hip depth you'll often see what happens with Adam here, his head pulling down and slightly *away* from the ball. 

The idea that the pelvis should rotate in a fairly centered way needs to be heavily qualified by the fact that your left hip will want to/is able to move 10x easier and further than your right hip in the backswing and vice versa in the downswing. It is WAY easier to consciously swing hips forward than it is to push them backwards, so to actually create a more "centered" rotation you end up having to physically do something that doesn't feel centered at all. This is a big part of why this stuff is so hard to do right and easy to do wrong. The "wrong" way feels far more natural and intuitive to our bodies and the "right" way feels so much more restricted and difficult that it can't *possibly* be right, but it is. It requires lots of reps and guidance to get it down, but once you do you'll know what i'm talking about.

 

56 minutes ago, Bogey2Better said:

That being said I think that was a major pull and probably shoulders misaligned.

That could be as well, yeah. The left shoulder sort of "sagging" into an open position is common, I fight that myself regularly.

[glk]

Some of what folks call early extension happens in efficient swings - I wouldn't worry about what little you have - not a big issue and actually trying to keep or get your butt back can create issues.

 

Your biggest issue is the your short, short transition - your body isn't prepared adequately for the downswing - results in you having arms late, a shoulder flip release, and a mild case of poultry.      This is where the shurn rhythm comes into play - the shift, turn-shift, turn is important to have the body prepared so that after transition one can rotate as fast as they can go.     Yes when folks first try it they tend to over do it - but this can be worked in the drills - goldilocks drills where you do too much, too little, then just right - the brain learns better by giving it boundaries for motion - practicing what one thinks is a perfect motion over and over doesn't work well when making changes - so goldilocks or sandwich (first make the new motion, then the old motion, then the new motion to hit the ball - as one does this more and more it becomes harder to do the old motion - see game like training folks).    and no need to be hitting balls all the time for this practice and especially don't want to get into rake and hit sessions.   Good luck,

[Bogey2Better]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:05 AM, glk said:

Some of what folks call early extension happens in efficient swings - I wouldn't worry about what little you have - not a big issue and actually trying to keep or get your butt back can create issues.

 

Your biggest issue is the your short, short transition - your body isn't prepared adequately for the downswing - results in you having arms late, a shoulder flip release, and a mild case of poultry.      This is where the shurn rhythm comes into play - the shift, turn-shift, turn is important to have the body prepared so that after transition one can rotate as fast as they can go.     Yes when folks first try it they tend to over do it - but this can be worked in the drills - goldilocks drills where you do too much, too little, then just right - the brain learns better by giving it boundaries for motion - practicing what one thinks is a perfect motion over and over doesn't work well when making changes - so goldilocks or sandwich (first make the new motion, then the old motion, then the new motion to hit the ball - as one does this more and more it becomes harder to do the old motion - see game like training folks).    and no need to be hitting balls all the time for this practice and especially don't want to get into rake and hit sessions.   Good luck,

That’s fair. Trying to get it perfect off the bat shouldn’t be the goal. My 4/19 swing was maybe overdoing it but I was getting the lower body moving and an earlier shift of pressure. 
 

agreed on the transition. It feels nonexistent and leads to lagging arms, etc. as you mentioned. 
 

On a work trip this week and found myself in the hotel gym today with kettlebells doing a couple of the drills in between sets. Lol 

 

I’ll try to work on his step drill but step in place so hopefully it helps it be more of a pressure shift instead of major weight shift or sway. 

[Bogey2Better]

On 4/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, Valtiel said:

I'll share just this one and leave the "how" to the next Monte lesson:



One of the telltale signs of "too much left hip forward" is what happens to your head position here; down and towards the ball. When you're correctly creating rotation via mainly right hip depth you'll often see what happens with Adam here, his head pulling down and slightly *away* from the ball. 

The idea that the pelvis should rotate in a fairly centered way needs to be heavily qualified by the fact that your left hip will want to/is able to move 10x easier and further than your right hip in the backswing and vice versa in the downswing. It is WAY easier to consciously swing hips forward than it is to push them backwards, so to actually create a more "centered" rotation you end up having to physically do something that doesn't feel centered at all. This is a big part of why this stuff is so hard to do right and easy to do wrong. The "wrong" way feels far more natural and intuitive to our bodies and the "right" way feels so much more restricted and difficult that it can't *possibly* be right, but it is. It requires lots of reps and guidance to get it down, but once you do you'll know what i'm talking about.

 

That could be as well, yeah. The left shoulder sort of "sagging" into an open position is common, I fight that myself regularly.

I am always curious @Valtiel

 

Monte is traveling so I expect a swing analysis later this week. I’ll let you know what he thinks.

 

One question on proper hip rotation, how do you work on it (drills) or think about it in your swing? When I think about the hip motion I end up with a full hip turn by LAP in my backswing. 

[glk]

52 minutes ago, Bogey2Better said:

That’s fair. Trying to get it perfect off the bat shouldn’t be the goal. My 4/19 swing was maybe overdoing it but I was getting the lower body moving and an earlier shift of pressure. 
 

agreed on the transition. It feels nonexistent and leads to lagging arms, etc. as you mentioned. 
 

On a work trip this week and found myself in the hotel gym today with kettlebells doing a couple of the drills in between sets. Lol 

 

I’ll try to work on his step drill but step in place so hopefully it helps it be more of a pressure shift instead of major weight shift or sway. 

Swinging a 10lb kettle bell is great     Big issue we have, in general, is the clubs are pretty light so it is easy to just focus on the upper body in the swing - swing a weight, while you can still use the upper body (you don't want to) requires more effort from the entire body.   
 

couple of things

 

a shift is the entire body versus a sway (upper body) and slide (lower body) and the shift is around an 1.5 inches or so.

 

important to have a setup that favors the ball of the foot - pushing the ground is efficient using the ballof the foot - don't need to get into the heel in the backswing - mid foot is good    Lead foot stays on ball and does move toward heel  in downswing.    Kyle Berkshire actually stays on the balls of his feet and keeps his heels off the ground - but that is him.

 

the hips don't actually turn - their motion rotates and tilts the pelvis - folks that try to rotate the trail hip end up in the heel with a straight leg and lose the ability to push the ground efficiently and pushing with the trail foot is important  in the downswing not just in transition.

 

so doing the shurn in place is good just let the heels just come up.   The shift is to align the leg so that you can push hard with the ball of your foot - this causes the leg to straighten a bit and the hip to rise and move back a little bit while the lead side hip drops forward -  the lead hip drops way more forward than the trail hip move up and back.   It is the push that causes the lead side to drop and unweight - at lap you should be able to easily tap your  lead foot on the ground - trail leg supports you - this reverses in the downswing.

 

another good drill to learn to shift and push - just need a band   And don't use the arms - pull the band and shift and get the  trail side high then lead side   
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_W03fXF0G3/

 

Good  demo by Bryan pate

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by glk

[Bogey2Better]

Little bit of an update on Monte’s analysis and yesterday’s range session. @Valtiel @glk 

 

Monte

 

Two main points to work on initially:

 

- getting more depth with hands at p4 where butt of the club is aligned more to heel or ankle vs mid-foot 

 

-proper hip rotation in downswing with left hip going back instead of right hip going forward (something you all have shared with me here so no surprise at all)

 

Range Session

 

I have been doing slow motion movements and drills in the house to try and feel the right hip staying back and then left coming back in the downswing. (Wall or chair drill) Feeling like I gain flexion in the left hip and push it straight back has felt different than normal rotating of the hips which leads to the right coming in and hips in general towards the ball.

 

Looking at my videos from yesterday vs a week ago it’s hard to see any difference. Maybe my hips stayed an inch closer to the line when back to parallel  P5 vs prior pattern. I’ve heard many times you need to feel really exaggerated to make a change so I will really try and overdo it. Curious any other drills or thoughts that have helped others. can also still see left coming in a bit in backswing. 
 

I didn’t focus on hand depth yesterday as I also wanted a better baseline given the poor shoulder alignment in my swing I sent to Monte. I’m thinking slightly lower hands at top will create the better depth.

 

One other interesting thing is I tried to do a swing keep my right heel down similar to the drop the wedge drill. Now I know it left me flat footed and was down too long but the different feel for my hip movement allowed me to keep it down. Previously I couldn’t keep it down if I tried. Hopefully that means I’m moving a small step in the right direction. 
 

(I did notice when trying to make better hip motion the club was outside of my hands more at I think p6 and I hit a few fat shots and a few more fades than normal. I know EE can be a shallowing move so that’s in the back of my mind.) 

 

Next session I’ll exaggerate hips more and get better hand depth.
 

5/5 iron (thin)

5/5 heel down Iron

 

 

[glk]

Lack of hand depth is cause you take the club away from you - that alignment stick at your feet is too far from your toes and if you are trying to move your hands along it, well then you will move them away from you versus downs the line and then in - I'd move it so that is maybe an inch or two in front of your toes.      You also appear to setup with your hands hanging too far in front of your toes - a good setup check is hands and shoulders should hang just, just in front of your toes.  if you draw a straight line up from the toes then your hands should be just on or in front of that line - you have a noticeable gap. 

like this

 

 

 

[Bogey2Better]

21 minutes ago, glk said:

Lack of hand depth is cause you take the club away from you - that alignment stick at your feet is too far from your toes and if you are trying to move your hands along it, well then you will move them away from you versus downs the line and then in - I'd move it so that is maybe an inch or two in front of your toes.      You also appear to setup with your hands hanging too far in front of your toes - a good setup check is hands and shoulders should hang just, just in front of your toes.  if you draw a straight line up from the toes then your hands should be just on or in front of that line - you have a noticeable gap. 

like this

 

 

 

Alignment stick has just been put down for more lower body alignment but good call on using it for hands as well. I’ll start moving it a bit closer to my toes to use it. 
 

I hadn’t focused much on hand path other than a couple of months ago when thinking about hip turn had me pulling them too far inside.
 

Is the proper movement moving hands straight back away from the target about 1-2 inches in front of toes until you get to P2? Regarding club head at that checkpoint, I believe at P2 you want the club head slightly outside your hands and P6 behind your hands, correct?

 

Monte commented that he thinks poor hand depth is also contributing to EE to help shallow. I’ll work on better hand path and depth tomorrow and see if that helps allow my hips to work better. 

[glk]

13 minutes ago, Bogey2Better said:

Alignment stick has just been put down for more lower body alignment but good call on using it for hands as well. I’ll start moving it a bit closer to my toes to use it. 
 

I hadn’t focused much on hand path other than a couple of months ago when thinking about hip turn had me pulling them too far inside.
 

Is the proper movement moving hands straight back away from the target about 1-2 inches in front of toes until you get to P2? Regarding club head at that checkpoint, I believe at P2 you want the club head slightly outside your hands and P6 behind your hands, correct?

 

Monte commented that he thinks poor hand depth is also contributing to EE to help shallow. I’ll work on better hand path and depth tomorrow and see if that helps allow my hips to work better. 

hands move with the upper body turn - if you are moving them independently then that can lead to issues - when they move with the upper body then the track down the line but then move in - keep the right forearm above the left during this and the club head should stay outside the hands. So yes.   if have used the arms independently then this drill below can feel different.

 

this is a good drill to work on this.  https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

poor hands depth typically leads to the arms and club coming out too much too early leading to body compensations to get the club to the ball - typically at lead arm parallel downswing the hands should be across from the right pec - note how your hands are past the pec.

 

again Mr. Scott who does pretty much everything golf swing really well - that is downswing

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by glk

[slytown]

I would agree that getting the hands feeper would help, but your backswing is much improved. You are not over your toes or leaning forward as much as before. I think its time to work on downswing sequence.

 

Its movement into to your lead side, arms down, and last rotate through. Your downswing still looks like you are rotating first. Work on building a downswing flow. Start doing the sequence in segments and then blend them together. Post a video too. And remember, you specifically should focus on your back staying to target when you do the first two parts. Last move is rotation. You need to basically practice hitting push draws. I like this stick drill. Gankas does it.

 

 

 

[Bogey2Better]

Hey @Valtiel @glk @slytown
 

 

No videos but a bit of an update on swing progress, strange bifurcated round today, and a putter question.

 

First, thank you to you all and Monte for the support! I definitely saw progress show its face today as I hit on below. Feels really good to be moving in the right direction! I know it’s in large part to you all.

 

putter question 

 

how do you evaluate your putter and toe hang selection? I have always been a pretty poor putter. (Today’s round was an EXTREME to the downside) I’m sure 80% of that is the golfer and not the equipment. One putter I can putt okay with at times is my brother’s original black mist Scotty Cameron Golo. I think it’s 25 degrees of toe hang. I did a Sam Puttlab fitting at club champion this spring and it recommended 30-45. Right after that I saw they were releasing a new Golo for the first time in a few years. It officially comes out tomorrow but instead of offering a medium toe hang option they went near minimum for the 6 (looks like 10-15) and near maximum for the 6.5 (looks like 45 maybe slightly over). 
 

my tendency on short putts is more often a push which would lean towards less toe hang but I can pull it a good amount too. I’ve read you should select toe hang based on 20ft putts. Any thoughts on how I narrow down the putters? Last month or so I’ve been borrowing my brother’s and putting on a 48” metal yardstick. Some nights I’m rolling it straight down. Others it can fall off either side. 
 

Swing Update

 

I have work to do but I’m definitely moving in the right direction! I had some of the best ball-striking in years today on a pretty tight and challenging course. Had a stretch of four holes 15-18 with 6iron 6iron 5iron 5iron approach shots and hit the green on the first three and was 5ft short to a front pin on 18. 
 

(Reminder on Monte’s video analysis items: better hand depth and left hip back motion in downswing)

 

Recent focus items and thoughts today: 

 

-I have improved my takeaway to not get the club away from me. This helps naturally with my hand depth. 

 

-I seem to be getting better depth based on videos from last week’s range session but I still have to consciously think about it. I’ve noticed when feel I do better hip movement and I don’t have proper depth I have a bit of a medium fade (3 iron - Driver) which makes sense as EE is a shallowing move. When I mix proper depth and the right hip motion it has been incredible!

 

-I still like to “feel” a 3/4 swing to reduce arm run-off and have a bit better upper-lower body sync. 
 

-I have been working on getting my left hip back while keeping the right back on the downswing. Some days are better than others. What I learned recently was that I think I struggle with the correct hip motion because flexion and squatting aka getting closer to the ground comes with that. I’ve always had quite a bit of head movement down in my backswing. I had tried to fix it last fall but didn’t have much success. While on a vacation this last week I was thinking about that and saw a comment from @MonteScheinblum on someone else’s thread that mentioned “low and slow” is often a culprit. I tried to think of staying tall, rotating, and hinging my wrist pretty immediately off the ball and my head stayed much more neutral. (I know I have a late wrist set as well) Staying tall in the backswing allows me to gain flexion and do the proper hip movement in the downswing. Granted I know I could still do it better but it feels very different even if it’s a very slight change via video. 
 

So that brings me to the round today:

 

Some of my best ball-striking! Wow my full swing shots were wonderful. Had a few strong fades not quite slice that happened when I didn’t have enough depth but no really poor shots. When I got proper depth, stayed tall to allow for better hip motion I was hitting really really well. That’s the end of the good news. 
 

I often work on my partial wedges 40-120yds and they are usually a relative strength but they killed me today. On the front 9 I had 4 duffed partial wedges (50yd, 50yd, 60yd 100yd) including two that went into a creek. 
 

While the greens were in extremely poor condition my putting was sooo bad! 6 three-putts and 2 four-putts. Usually I’ll have 1-3 three-putts in a round. 
 

(For reference I’m usually mid to high 80’s.) I shot a 95 on a par 71 slope 133. It is a pretty difficult course that has a tight front 9. Take out the 4 duffs, two penalties, and leave 2 three-putts and I shoot a respectable 81 that still included two penalty shots were I hit through a fairway I didn’t know curved that much. Granted that’s a lot of asterisks but not out of the question as today was an anomaly for the partial wedges and putting. 

 

What an interesting journey. I appreciate the help from this forum and Monte. I’ll keep working and post a video in a couples weeks when I’ve hopefully made more progress. Heading to golf galaxy in the morning to putt with the two new Golo’s to hopefully choose and start putting in the time with it. 
 

 

[slytown]

8 hours ago, Bogey2Better said:

Hey @Valtiel @glk @slytown
 

 

No videos but a bit of an update on swing progress, strange bifurcated round today, and a putter question.

 

First, thank you to you all and Monte for the support! I definitely saw progress show its face today as I hit on below. Feels really good to be moving in the right direction! I know it’s in large part to you all.

 

putter question 

 

how do you evaluate your putter and toe hang selection? I have always been a pretty poor putter. (Today’s round was an EXTREME to the downside) I’m sure 80% of that is the golfer and not the equipment. One putter I can putt okay with at times is my brother’s original black mist Scotty Cameron Golo. I think it’s 25 degrees of toe hang. I did a Sam Puttlab fitting at club champion this spring and it recommended 30-45. Right after that I saw they were releasing a new Golo for the first time in a few years. It officially comes out tomorrow but instead of offering a medium toe hang option they went near minimum for the 6 (looks like 10-15) and near maximum for the 6.5 (looks like 45 maybe slightly over). 
 

my tendency on short putts is more often a push which would lean towards less toe hang but I can pull it a good amount too. I’ve read you should select toe hang based on 20ft putts. Any thoughts on how I narrow down the putters? Last month or so I’ve been borrowing my brother’s and putting on a 48” metal yardstick. Some nights I’m rolling it straight down. Others it can fall off either side. 
 

Swing Update

 

I have work to do but I’m definitely moving in the right direction! I had some of the best ball-striking in years today on a pretty tight and challenging course. Had a stretch of four holes 15-18 with 6iron 6iron 5iron 5iron approach shots and hit the green on the first three and was 5ft short to a front pin on 18. 
 

(Reminder on Monte’s video analysis items: better hand depth and left hip back motion in downswing)

 

Recent focus items and thoughts today: 

 

-I have improved my takeaway to not get the club away from me. This helps naturally with my hand depth. 

 

-I seem to be getting better depth based on videos from last week’s range session but I still have to consciously think about it. I’ve noticed when feel I do better hip movement and I don’t have proper depth I have a bit of a medium fade (3 iron - Driver) which makes sense as EE is a shallowing move. When I mix proper depth and the right hip motion it has been incredible!

 

-I still like to “feel” a 3/4 swing to reduce arm run-off and have a bit better upper-lower body sync. 
 

-I have been working on getting my left hip back while keeping the right back on the downswing. Some days are better than others. What I learned recently was that I think I struggle with the correct hip motion because flexion and squatting aka getting closer to the ground comes with that. I’ve always had quite a bit of head movement down in my backswing. I had tried to fix it last fall but didn’t have much success. While on a vacation this last week I was thinking about that and saw a comment from @MonteScheinblum on someone else’s thread that mentioned “low and slow” is often a culprit. I tried to think of staying tall, rotating, and hinging my wrist pretty immediately off the ball and my head stayed much more neutral. (I know I have a late wrist set as well) Staying tall in the backswing allows me to gain flexion and do the proper hip movement in the downswing. Granted I know I could still do it better but it feels very different even if it’s a very slight change via video. 
 

So that brings me to the round today:

 

Some of my best ball-striking! Wow my full swing shots were wonderful. Had a few strong fades not quite slice that happened when I didn’t have enough depth but no really poor shots. When I got proper depth, stayed tall to allow for better hip motion I was hitting really really well. That’s the end of the good news. 
 

I often work on my partial wedges 40-120yds and they are usually a relative strength but they killed me today. On the front 9 I had 4 duffed partial wedges (50yd, 50yd, 60yd 100yd) including two that went into a creek. 
 

While the greens were in extremely poor condition my putting was sooo bad! 6 three-putts and 2 four-putts. Usually I’ll have 1-3 three-putts in a round. 
 

(For reference I’m usually mid to high 80’s.) I shot a 95 on a par 71 slope 133. It is a pretty difficult course that has a tight front 9. Take out the 4 duffs, two penalties, and leave 2 three-putts and I shoot a respectable 81 that still included two penalty shots were I hit through a fairway I didn’t know curved that much. Granted that’s a lot of asterisks but not out of the question as today was an anomaly for the partial wedges and putting. 

 

What an interesting journey. I appreciate the help from this forum and Monte. I’ll keep working and post a video in a couples weeks when I’ve hopefully made more progress. Heading to golf galaxy in the morning to putt with the two new Golo’s to hopefully choose and start putting in the time with it. 
 

 

 

Good to hear. Just stick with it. And, keep taking periodic videos. Have to remember in a swing change you can easily revert back, start hitting well one day, and decide that is your new swing. Its why having one golf lesson is largely pointless. Swing changes take time and discipline.

[Bogey2Better]

34 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

Good to hear. Just stick with it. And, keep taking periodic videos. Have to remember in a swing change you can easily revert back, start hitting well one day, and decide that is your new swing. Its why having one golf lesson is largely pointless. Swing changes take time and discipline.

Completely agree. The amount I’ve been learning about a proper swing, my tendencies, and the focus on filming my swing when I go to the range will hopefully help keep me moving the right direction for the most part. I had an off day a week ago and when reviewing my video that’s when the head dropping caught my eye. 

 

That and I bought the 5-pack from Monte.

 

The guy I was taking lessons from last fall opened my eyes that semi-regular lessons with an instructor (in-person or virtual) is a good thing. It’s so hard to do it yourself and why most don’t make much progress.