Rotation through the ball

[GGTTH]

Well after me considering giving up the game I just can't bring myself to do it. So I'm grinding out of the slump, I have a new coach who I like and can understand and I've enjoyed it most importantly so far.

 

Working on mid-irons first. Basically I overswing and over rotate in the backswing and my trail leg straightens out. I then coming down to impact flip to try save the clubface.  So we have been working on that which has improved somewhat but it's not 'there' yet but I am grinding away on that. We also widened my stance a little. Then I kept hitting it out of the toe and it was basically because I wasn't keeping my spine angle (is that early extension?) I was then given the drill with the alignment stick under the club and to hit little chip type shots presumably to fix the flipping thing and rotation through for a better strike and clubface control. My instant feedback from that drill was the strike was so good on the ones I did correctly. However I am finding it quite challenging especially with my upper body as that doesn't seem to want to come through much if at all and I am trying really hard to get it do that. I don't think it's a reaction to what the ball is doing because I'm just doing it into a net.

 

Would this be a common problem for someone with some mobility issues or a lack of strength in their back/spine? I almost kind of feel like this move could be the catalyst for being a better ball striker with my irons so I believe we are on the right path and I believe in his methodology. I' m just not sure if I am physically capable of rotating through with the upper body especially for whatever reason, be it a muscle weakness or mobility reason? The hips and lowerbody I think I can get better at quite easily as mobility etc is fine there. 

 

Anyone any ideas if that could be the case? I'm reluctant to get back to the coach just now and ask about the above because I can see some sort of light at the end of the tunnel and I don't want him to think I am not physically capable and change course. It might just be a case of muscle weakness or lack of mobility - and if that is the case then that's something I can work on at the gym or at home to help. 

 

 

[iacas]

A flip is almost always a result of something that came long before it. It’s rarely something you fix directly.

 

It doesn’t sound like you have a single (dynamic) priority to focus on right now. If you had to do that, what is it?

[GGTTH]

Okay, maybe my wording could have been better. We have widened my stance and I'm hinging more from the hips. Now my priority is rotating through the ball/shifting my weight.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Do you have any reason to think you have abnormal upper body strength or mobility that you're actually inhibited here? I.e. any medical issues, any past injury complications? I mean beyond the "middle-aged guy who's worked a sedentary office job for several decades" type of poor strength, because plenty of those guys can make functional turns. 

 

If there's nothing acute that you can identify, I'd guess that it's not a physical limitation but rather a deeply ingrained motor pattern that your brain is just having a difficult time trying to train yourself out of. Which is very common. If you've spent, again, several decades swinging a club one way, trying to change it to a more correct way is not an easy task. 

 

[ShortGolfer]

As a stroke survivor this is my area of expertise.  I've had to relearn everything.

What you need is constant practice.  What works for me is short sessions several times a day.  After a couple months I can change.

This is the biggest issue in the rehab ward.  Some folks don't practice outside of PT sessions and never get better.

A long practice session isn't as good as a few short ones.

 

It sounds like you can do the motion sometimes so there isn't a physical limitation.

There are stroke survivors with very real limitations, like not being able to cross their legs.  They just can't do that. No matter how hard they try.

After the stroke I can no longer do the Vulcan hand sign like I used to. Still can't do it.

 

There is also the issue of what you think you are doing not matching up with the actual motion.  This is the job of the instructor.

Video may also help.  Or trial and error to figure out what works for you.

Edited May 17, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[GGTTH]

32 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Do you have any reason to think you have abnormal upper body strength or mobility that you're actually inhibited here? I.e. any medical issues, any past injury complications? I mean beyond the "middle-aged guy who's worked a sedentary office job for several decades" type of poor strength, because plenty of those guys can make functional turns. 

 

If there's nothing acute that you can identify, I'd guess that it's not a physical limitation but rather a deeply ingrained motor pattern that your brain is just having a difficult time trying to train yourself out of. Which is very common. If you've spent, again, several decades swinging a club one way, trying to change it to a more correct way is not an easy task. 

 

With regards to this, No injury complications or medical conditions as such. 

 

My day to day posture is crap, so I have a weak back. 

[ShortGolfer]

6 minutes ago, GGTTH said:

With regards to this, No injury complications or medical conditions as such. 

 

My day to day posture is crap, so I have a weak back. 

One obvious change is to sit up straight improve your posture.  Training is hard.  But if you want to get better, you need to make changes.

[GGTTH]

Just now, ShortGolfer said:

One obvious change is to sit up straight improve your posture.  Training is hard.  But if you want to get better, you need to make changes.

Funny thing is, I'm at the gym 3x a week also, working on many things but I am very conscious of posture when working out and my form is good. It could possibly be a mobility thing.

[Zitlow]

The trail side rotates or pivots around the posted from the ground up lead side. 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, GGTTH said:

Funny thing is, I'm at the gym 3x a week also, working on many things but I am very conscious of posture when working out and my form is good. It could possibly be a mobility thing.

 

If you're at the gym 3x per week your posture might just be an ingrained habit as well. Although it also may depend what you're doing at the gym. Core work would probably help if you're not doing anything to focus on it. And if you're not adding in regular stretching, you should. 

 

But I'm not hearing anything that would suggest you have a fundamental physical issue stopping you from a more correct turn. My guess is that you're having trouble for the same reason Monte always points out... "This feels weird."

[KD1]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

The trail side rotates or pivots around the posted from the ground up lead side. 

 

Im no pro but this notion had me so screwed up for so long I can't keep my mouth shut... The lead side isn't fixed like a post. The lead hip is moving back and away from the ball. A posted lead side, in my mind's eye, implies it's fixed. It causes my left butt check to stay still while my right hip swings down toward the ball causing all sorts of issues.

Edited May 17, 2023 by KD1

[GGTTH]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

If you're at the gym 3x per week your posture might just be an ingrained habit as well. Although it also may depend what you're doing at the gym. Core work would probably help if you're not doing anything to focus on it. And if you're not adding in regular stretching, you should. 

 

But I'm not hearing anything that would suggest you have a fundamental physical issue stopping you from a more correct turn. My guess is that you're having trouble for the same reason Monte always points out... "This feels weird."

 

Possibly yeah. But I don't even know what I'm feeling when doing this drill, I can't comprehend the feeling and the drill and relate it to anything. There is no 'feel' when I do the drill, it's just plain different and difficult to do and even then I'm not confident I'm doing it properly anyway. The only time I do feel I may be doing the drill right is when the chip goes high and makes a louder sound off the face. And it's also only small chip shots just now anyway. It might genuinely take tens of thousands of swings. I'll stick it out as I've nothing to lose at this point but it would be nice to see a little improvement from ball striking.

Edited May 17, 2023 by GGTTH

[naj959]

Toe shots and early extension...I'd bet money that you're early tilting your trail shoulder in the downswing. It's almost impossible to rotate from that position. Something in your swing is causing you to use that as a shallowing mechanism. I wouldn't hesitate to ask your coach. That's what he is being paid for. It's not a mobility issue it's an improper movement issue. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

The trail side rotates or pivots around the posted from the ground up lead side. 

 

No, it doesn’t. What @KD1 said is more accurate.

[MonteScheinblum]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

A flip is almost always a result of something that came long before it. It’s rarely something you fix directly.

 

It doesn’t sound like you have a single (dynamic) priority to focus on right now. If you had to do that, what is it?

👍

[Zitlow]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

Im no pro but this notion had me so screwed up for so long I can't keep my mouth shut... The lead side isn't fixed like a post. The lead hip is moving back and away from the ball. A posted lead side, in my mind's eye, implies it's fixed. It causes my left butt check to stay still while my right hip swings down toward the ball causing all sorts of issues.

It isn't something you consciously do, the backswing sets up the downswing. Swing into muscular tension in the backswing and release the tension in the downswing. 

 

If you pull an arrow back in a bow you put tension on the bowstring and the bow. When you let go of the arrow the tension is released from the bowstring and bow the arrow flies.

 

If people used a bow the way they swing a golf club the arrow would drop down in front of their feet. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

If you pull an arrow back in a bow you put tension on the bowstring and the bow. When you let go of the arrow the tension is released from the bowstring and bow the arrow flies.

That’s not how muscles work.

 

Yes there’s a stretch-shorten cycle but that’s pretty micro in the context of a golf swing. Plus you largely ignored @KD1’s main point in response to you.

Edited May 17, 2023 by iacas

[RoyalTroon]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

Swing into muscular tension in the backswing and release the tension in the downswing.

 

Sounds like it could be from Abe Mitchell's playbook. 

[Zitlow]

14 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

Sounds like it could be from Abe Mitchell's playbook. 

I'm familiar with Abe Mitchell, he's the figure on top of the Ryder Cup Trophy and I've watched a couple of Steve Elkington videos about him. 

 

Mike Austin gave me the bowstring metaphor. He was a pioneer in kinesiology, the study of muscular motion. He used muscular force not muscular effort to hit a ball.

 

I'll send you a message with a short video contrasting the difference between using muscular effort vs muscular force to transmit energy to a golf ball. 

 

 

 

 

 

[RoyalTroon]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Plus you largely ignored @KD1’s main point in response to you.

 

[jonsnow]

On 5/17/2023 at 11:00 AM, ShortGolfer said:

As a stroke survivor this is my area of expertise.  I've had to relearn everything.

What you need is constant practice.  What works for me is short sessions several times a day.  After a couple months I can change.

This is the biggest issue in the rehab ward.  Some folks don't practice outside of PT sessions and never get better.

A long practice session isn't as good as a few short ones.

 

It sounds like you can do the motion sometimes so there isn't a physical limitation.

There are stroke survivors with very real limitations, like not being able to cross their legs.  They just can't do that. No matter how hard they try.

After the stroke I can no longer do the Vulcan hand sign like I used to. Still can't do it.

 

There is also the issue of what you think you are doing not matching up with the actual motion.  This is the job of the instructor.

Video may also help.  Or trial and error to figure out what works for you.

This is encouraging as I've experienced a series of mild strokes over the last couple of months. I'm continuing to have weakness & numbness in my left leg/foot & left arm/hand. I've hit balls a couple of times since my MRI confirming the strokes & it's been pretty discouraging. I feel like I'm going to fall when I try to take a full swing & my hands feel like I've never held a club before. Beginning to wonder if I'll ever be able to play at a level anywhere close to what I have in the past, but I guess I should feel fortunate it's not worse. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by jonsnow
numerous typos; typing is very difficult, too

[ShortGolfer]

When I first started learning to play golf after the stroke I had some balance issues as well.  Staying upright after making a full swing on level ground.  Again after playing on the course on tilted lies.

But, that went away after my first short season.  It helped that I was able to practice several times a day.