Swing speed / distance plateau

[mitchie180]

Long story short - as little as ~6 months ago my on course / cruising swing speed was  around the 112mph mark, generating mid 160's ballspeed.

 

Having reconstructed my whole swing over the past couple of months inclusive of a grip change, adjusted takeaway, hitting up on the ball and just a general tidy up, I've lost as much as 6-7mph cruise speed and only really hit 110+ when really giving it some stick.

 

Feel as though I've got more in the tank and might just be missing a piece or two - though nothing is glaringly obvious to me at this point.

 

The first things that come to mind are perhaps time my ground / vertical forces a bit better and also perhaps some extra hinge/lag at the top of the swing?

 

Would really appreciate some input and any other suggestions. 

 

Sometimes it takes an extra set of eyes to spot things that can sometimes be quite obvious.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

[mitchie180]

 

Bear in mind - distance shown is in meters.

 

Cheers!

[GolfTurkey]

Let's see what the instructors say; looks like mostly lower body stuff to me.

 

Left hip / knee working out a lot in backswing right hip working closer to the ball and then that continues into the downswing (right hip getting in the way of the arms, goat hump etc)

[mitchie180]

5 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Let's see what the instructors say; looks like mostly lower body stuff to me.

 

Left hip / knee working out a lot in backswing right hip working closer to the ball and then that continues into the downswing (right hip getting in the way of the arms, goat hump etc)

Great - that makes a lot of sense - much appreciated mate!

So upper body / torso rotation needs to take precedent over hips, knees and legs.

As a feel - presumably there should be a bit more of a 'stretch' through my ribcage then i take it?

 

From the top, slide weight over front leg and release lower half to create more torque in the torso / upper / club?

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Need serious change in how the pelvis moves.  
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq86v6nsgAI/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[PracticeSwinger]

Combo of 1- lead forearm rotation in takeaway (promotes the clubhead whipping inside) and 2- trail hip maxing out early (pressure into the outside of your trail foot by P3). Has your diving into the ball, pelvis moving towards it, compensatory EE + stall flip save. Just saw Monte replied, do what he says.

[Zitlow]

You have a long way to go before you reach your speed/distance plateau.

 

All they band aids in the world aren't going to help if your mental concept of how to sync up your arms and body is off. 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Zitlow

[Sean124]

Besides the hip/pelvis stuff mentioned, nothing good happens on the golf course when you hit up 8 degrees. 
 

[Albatross Dreamer]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Need serious change in how the pelvis moves.  
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq86v6nsgAI/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

The pelvis also isn't one bone but a group of bones. Which I'm sure you're aware of and mispoke but correcting since one video had this exchange and didn't want people to be confused.

 

"a lot of people said that's stupid. That makes no sense. The pelvis is one bone" (crazy if a lot of people were actually saying that to you)

"technically that's correct" (it's not)

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

The pelvis also isn't one bone but a group of bones. Which I'm sure you're aware of and mispoke but correcting since one video had this exchange and didn't want people to be confused.

 

"a lot of people said that's stupid. That makes no sense. The pelvis is one bone" (crazy if a lot of people were actually saying that to you)

"technically that's correct" (it's not)

Yes, I know that and you know that, but when dealing with people on social media about the golf swing you have to pick your battles. 

 

Between Instagram and TikTok there were hundreds of people.   Hundreds……who called me out on this.  So I gave in to the ignorance because I wanted to make the discussion about movement.
 

By them  saying that it’s one bone is deflecting the discussion away from what’s important.  Ams move the hips backwards.  
 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Albatross Dreamer]

29 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes, I know that and you know that, but when dealing with people on social media about the golf swing you have to pick your battles. 

 

Between Instagram and TikTok there were hundreds of people.   Hundreds……who called me out on this.  So I gave in to the ignorance because I wanted to make the discussion about movement.
 

By them  saying that it’s one bone is deflecting the discussion away from what’s important.  Ams move the hips backwards.  
 

 

What are you talking about Monte, people on social media are totally rational! 😂  I figured that was the case and was more point it out for people on here. I know you know your stuff! Looking forward to your next video "why the pelvis is the ONE bone you most need to pay attention to".

[596]

No instructor here, but, I think you lose 10mph in the swing just from the shoes. 

 

 

[Valtiel]

@mitchie180 To echo the above, overall you're losing a ton of power because you're having to manage some severe early extension by way of how your lower body is working.



There are a dozen different ways to explain what causes this and why it happens and it's super common, but its a journey that will take time to fix. The best way i've found to describe this is that technically correct lower body "rotation" in the golf swing is a bit of a paradox, and is a very specific learned set of moves that basically never happens naturally. In fact what often happens naturally is exactly what you're doing. The momentum towards the ball created by swinging a long heavy stick at it will naturally pull you in towards it, and your body does not want to be in this bent over position when that is happening, or really for any of the golf swing. It wants to align itself for balance like where you end up here at impact. The problem is that none of this is conducive to creating efficient speed when trying to hit something on the ground. It jams you up by changing your spatial relationship to the ball and forces compensations that slow you down, so the job of our lower body is to instead resist this through a set of learned moves that involve creating rotation by pushing the hips backwards while maintaining our distance from the ball



This is where the trouble starts in that you lock up your rear leg and roll all the way into your heel like I mentioned above. Hop on to youtube and do a search for "Driver swing DTL" with any pro golfer's name added e.g. "Adam Scott Driver Swing DTL" and watch their footwork. No matter who you search for you'll notice stability in that rear foot. Yes it does move slightly towards the heel, but not to this extreme.



Because you unbalanced yourself in the backswing with that trail foot action you now have this; a massive move towards the ball as you complete your backswing and in transition. Part of this is because you unbalanced yourself going back with that trail foot stuff and your brain is now trying to rebalance your body, the other part is the lack of that "learned" movement stuff I mentioned before. Check out the links Monte posted above, and also this as a general primer.



Everything that happens now is compensations because of how much closer you are to the ball now with the forces you're creating with the lower body being almost all vertical with no "rotation". As @Zitlow said above, you are nowhere near a physical plateau because of all this, you're potentially a race car stuck in 1st or 2nd gear here. There is also a good chance that what @Sean124 mentioned plays a part in this as well since the moves that people often employ to hit way up on the ball like this also rob you of speed and consistency.

I struggled with ALL the same things you're dealing with right now, both as a junior golfer and well into my 20's. It is all fixable via understanding how to pivot/rotate correctly but that will take time and patience. I posted my swing last month here as someone that used to come towards the ball with the driver almost as much as you at times. I cruise around 170mph ball speed in the off season via what looks like 1/3rd the effort you're exerting, and I do NOT say that as some kind of flex because I want to highlight that it's largely an illusion. I *feel* like i'm swinging as hard or harder than you are, but the technically "correct" movements, especially with the lower body, have this effect of making it look fluid and "easy". They do NOT feel like that though, it's a big time "feel vs. real" situation, and I say all that so you don't get discouraged if it feels overwhelming to try to take on changing these things. Check out the Monte videos and the AMG stuff and focus first on getting your head around what it all actually means. Feel free to ask questions as there are plenty of folks here that will help.

Also I agree with @596 about the shoes. 😆

[Chunkitgood]

Absorb this text:

 

Here they are: 1. When the left arm is parallel to the ground, the right forearm is always slightly above it (when viewing from an image captured at waist height). I found this to be true for every golfer listed. In some cases the right arm is against the side (Hogan, Snead) and in others it is away from the side (Nicklaus, Price), yet due to the method in which the shoulders were pivoted, the right was always above the left.  Conclusion: it is vital for the shoulders to pivot on a relatively steep plane.  In a correct pivot, the left shoulder’s first move is down and then slightly across. This is in direct contrast to what most golfers attempt to do with their shoulders, which is 1) turn them as much as they can and 2) get the left shoulder behind the ball.

 

Andrew Rice, It’s All About Impact, Copyright 2009

 

(Emphasis add by your truly.)

 

And this image:

 

[mitchie180]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes, I know that and you know that, but when dealing with people on social media about the golf swing you have to pick your battles. 

 

Between Instagram and TikTok there were hundreds of people.   Hundreds……who called me out on this.  So I gave in to the ignorance because I wanted to make the discussion about movement.
 

By them  saying that it’s one bone is deflecting the discussion away from what’s important.  Ams move the hips backwards.  
 

 

 

6 hours ago, 596 said:

No instructor here, but, I think you lose 10mph in the swing just from the shoes. 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

@mitchie180 To echo the above, overall you're losing a ton of power because you're having to manage some severe early extension by way of how your lower body is working.



There are a dozen different ways to explain what causes this and why it happens and it's super common, but its a journey that will take time to fix. The best way i've found to describe this is that technically correct lower body "rotation" in the golf swing is a bit of a paradox, and is a very specific learned set of moves that basically never happens naturally. In fact what often happens naturally is exactly what you're doing. The momentum towards the ball created by swinging a long heavy stick at it will naturally pull you in towards it, and your body does not want to be in this bent over position when that is happening, or really for any of the golf swing. It wants to align itself for balance like where you end up here at impact. The problem is that none of this is conducive to creating efficient speed when trying to hit something on the ground. It jams you up by changing your spatial relationship to the ball and forces compensations that slow you down, so the job of our lower body is to instead resist this through a set of learned moves that involve creating rotation by pushing the hips backwards while maintaining our distance from the ball



This is where the trouble starts in that you lock up your rear leg and roll all the way into your heel like I mentioned above. Hop on to youtube and do a search for "Driver swing DTL" with any pro golfer's name added e.g. "Adam Scott Driver Swing DTL" and watch their footwork. No matter who you search for you'll notice stability in that rear foot. Yes it does move slightly towards the heel, but not to this extreme.



Because you unbalanced yourself in the backswing with that trail foot action you now have this; a massive move towards the ball as you complete your backswing and in transition. Part of this is because you unbalanced yourself going back with that trail foot stuff and your brain is now trying to rebalance your body, the other part is the lack of that "learned" movement stuff I mentioned before. Check out the links Monte posted above, and also this as a general primer.



Everything that happens now is compensations because of how much closer you are to the ball now with the forces you're creating with the lower body being almost all vertical with no "rotation". As @Zitlow said above, you are nowhere near a physical plateau because of all this, you're potentially a race car stuck in 1st or 2nd gear here. There is also a good chance that what @Sean124 mentioned plays a part in this as well since the moves that people often employ to hit way up on the ball like this also rob you of speed and consistency.

I struggled with ALL the same things you're dealing with right now, both as a junior golfer and well into my 20's. It is all fixable via understanding how to pivot/rotate correctly but that will take time and patience. I posted my swing last month here as someone that used to come towards the ball with the driver almost as much as you at times. I cruise around 170mph ball speed in the off season via what looks like 1/3rd the effort you're exerting, and I do NOT say that as some kind of flex because I want to highlight that it's largely an illusion. I *feel* like i'm swinging as hard or harder than you are, but the technically "correct" movements, especially with the lower body, have this effect of making it look fluid and "easy". They do NOT feel like that though, it's a big time "feel vs. real" situation, and I say all that so you don't get discouraged if it feels overwhelming to try to take on changing these things. Check out the Monte videos and the AMG stuff and focus first on getting your head around what it all actually means. Feel free to ask questions as there are plenty of folks here that will help.

Also I agree with @596 about the shoes. 😆

 

3 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Absorb this text:

 

Here they are: 1. When the left arm is parallel to the ground, the right forearm is always slightly above it (when viewing from an image captured at waist height). I found this to be true for every golfer listed. In some cases the right arm is against the side (Hogan, Snead) and in others it is away from the side (Nicklaus, Price), yet due to the method in which the shoulders were pivoted, the right was always above the left.  Conclusion: it is vital for the shoulders to pivot on a relatively steep plane.  In a correct pivot, the left shoulder’s first move is down and then slightly across. This is in direct contrast to what most golfers attempt to do with their shoulders, which is 1) turn them as much as they can and 2) get the left shoulder behind the ball.

 

Andrew Rice, It’s All About Impact, Copyright 2009

 

(Emphasis add by your truly.)

 

And this image:

 

 

Geez got my money's worth there...

 

Thank you all so much - appreciate it can be a lot to get my head around, though ironically, have a feeling what's being discussed is something I've been working on (note: working on, not perfected by any stretch) with my irons a lot lately) - though no doubt will probably be corrected which again is more than welcomed.

 

Disclaimer: geriatric hiking shoes may be depicted...

 

Those who have assisted, I really do give thanks. I guess my 'question' to what you've all kindly put forward and suggested is, do you feel what I'm working on with my iron swing below, is on the right path and something I need to translate into my driver swing more prominently too?

 

Those videos and comparisons generously shared are fantastic and I'll definitely utilise them moving forward when I get to practising next - perhaps this arvo... 

 

 

I should note that I'm also working on covering the ball a little better, shifting my upper body over my left side in conjunction with my pelvis / lower half to reduce dynamic loft and generate a more consistent and more penetrative ball flight.

[mitchie180]

DTL view of the above. 

 

Also working on keeping club face more square on takeaway. Has improved my consistency in ball striking a ton. 

 

This iron swing taken ~ 1 month ago, maybe a little less.

 

Thanks gentleman!

 

 

 

[596]

Watch and learn the video from AMG on hip rotation.  That's the first place to start a rework of your swing.  You are moving your hips way toward the ball in both the back swing and down swing. You have no choice but to stand up at impact or you'd dig a hole to China. 

[mitchie180]

57 minutes ago, 596 said:

Watch and learn the video from AMG on hip rotation.  That's the first place to start a rework of your swing.  You are moving your hips way toward the ball in both the back swing and down swing. You have no choice but to stand up at impact or you'd dig a hole to China. 

 

Have watched - and wholly understand the concept and know what i need to do. With that said, knowing and doing are two very separate things.

 

Not going to be an overnight fix, as others above have mentioned.

 

And, as i mentioned, those last two videos of my iron swing were from circa a month ago.

If you had seen a video of where i was prior to that, then you'd understand i've made significant progress up until that point - though i'll save your eyes.

 

So if i dig a hole to China on my way to fixing my swing, so be it. Can buy myself some more dodgy hiking shoes while i'm there...

 

Edit: also came across this video - thought the analogy about skipping a stone across the water was great. any others struggling with the same swing faults as i may be able to draw some help out of it on top of the others already listed

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by mitchie180

[596]

I have/had the same fault with the hips.  After a lot of work on the back swing hip movement I found the downswing hip movement even harder to implement.  The thought I used was the opening of a gate in the downswing. With the gate moving up and behind me with the left hip instead of the right hip moving toward the ball. Thousands of 1/2 and 3/4 wedges and 9 irons to 70 to 100 yards. Even after 6 to 8 months 90% of my range time are those wedges and 9 irons. 

[mitchie180]

10 minutes ago, 596 said:

I have/had the same fault with the hips.  After a lot of work on the back swing hip movement I found the downswing hip movement even harder to implement.  The thought I used was the opening of a gate in the downswing. With the gate moving up and behind me with the left hip instead of the right hip moving toward the ball. Thousands of 1/2 and 3/4 wedges and 9 irons to 70 to 100 yards. Even after 6 to 8 months 90% of my range time are those wedges and 9 irons. 

 

Thanks for that buddy.

Actually answered something i wanted to ask (perhaps others could chime in too) - is whether it's easier, both to learn and implement properly with wedges/shorter irons than it is with woods / longer irons?

 

Presumably you felt it is - did you have any issues transferring that feel from the shorter sticks to long?

And again - i know that iron swing i posted isn't there yet - but it's considerably 'better' than my driver swing or should i say, not as pronounced (as it's something i've been cognisant of of late and have actively been working on - more so than my driver swing which i differentiate).

 

Cheers

[596]

Much easier with short irons as recommended here on WRX by Valtiel. 

 

But again, even then it's not easy.  Took months to get the correct connection in the full swing. Tons of 1/2 shots to work on hip movement only.  And I'm still doing them.   When I first started moving hips correctly it felt as though I'd miss the ball completely as it felt like I was moving away from it. Total backwards but it solved my toe misses. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

12 minutes ago, 596 said:

...But again, even then it's not easy.  Took months to get the correct connection in the full swing. Tons of 1/2 shots to work on hip movement only.  And I'm still doing them.   When I first started moving hips correctly it felt as though I'd miss the ball completely as it felt like I was moving away from it. Total backwards but it solved my toe misses. 

Agreed.  Very challenging to learn.  Especially when you end up pulling your right hamstring out of exuberance...

 

There's a (Monte) drill where you take your address just in front of a wall, then turn so your right butt cheek touches the wall, that I've found very useful in learning the sequence.

[mitchie180]

@MonteScheinblum @Valtiel and others - again, sincere thanks for your help earlier.

 

Having listened to what you all had to say and watching all resources provided - I went down to the sims this arvo with a few notes I'd taken to do some work.

 

A lot of trial and error - trying a certain feel while filming, watching it back and seeing if it matched up to what I was trying to achieve and what was pictured in my head. Needless to say, it's a hell of a lot easier said than done - but feel as though some progress was made.

 

As @596 suggested, most of the work was done with wedges, short irons and a few mid irons. Kept big stick in the bad and predominantly worked on half swings.

 

Below are 6 iron DTL and side on and an 8 iron swing side on - all same same but different, few tweaks amongst them. Of course, any suggestions / advice is hugely appreciated. 

 

I did you all a favour and wore different shoes for the day. So that's a start...

 

 

 

[mitchie180]

 

 

[mitchie180]

The files were too large for the one post - apologies for the 'spam'.

 

Thanks all!