Across the Line and Steep?

[bt1717]

[MPStrat]

Post a face on 

[bt1717]

32 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Post a face on 

 

[GoGoErky]

Looks like the same swing to me with no changes from multiple other threads 

[Valtiel]

49 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Looks like the same swing to me with no changes from multiple other threads 

I wouldn't say that is fair as he's made several changes that both @MonteScheinblum and @iacas mentioned regarding grip and that I mentioned regarding inside takeaway (he was super strong before, more neutral now). What i'm still seeing is the overly shut clubface, ball too far back in the stance, and an overrunning backswing:



The P2 position here (club parallel to the ground) is nice and neutral from a positional standpoint (slightly outside the hands) but the clubface is still pointed at the ground (very shut). Not much of a concern is it continued opening up to the top, but it's still quite shut up there. I'm mostly worried about the length of the backswing though and how much over-rotating we're seeing in the body. The second frame above would be considered a "full" iron swing for more, but...



...all of this is extra junk you need to cut out completely. You're standing up, over-rotating, and creating a position that you can't quickly transition out of because you need too much time to get the club back down in front of you, leading to this:



Your arms still severely trailing your lower body like before. Your right elbow should be down near your right hip at this point and your hands close to your right thigh, and you're way behind that. This is being exacerbated by a ball that is too far back in your stance like you're going to play a knockdown shot while making a long drive swing with an iron. You'll likely need to feel like you're making half swings to recalibrate what you consider a full swing for awhile, so please post some follow up vids of you making what you feel like is one of those swings and we can check in on that.
 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Valtiel

[Zitlow]

@Valtiel I borrowed one of your images, hope that's okay.

 

When your right elbow folds allow the clubface to open onto the plane. You don't need to artificially keep it closed or artificially hyperextend your right elbow going back. 

 

 

 

You're out of sequence. Stop casting, the elbow right elbow unfolds the hands not the the other way around.

 

It's like hammering a nail into a board. if you started the hammer with your hand instead of your elbow you'd hit a lot of weak glancing blows and end up bending a lot of nails. 

 

[MPStrat]

43 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Your right elbow should be down near your right hip at this point and your hands close to your right thigh, and you're way behind that. 
 

I agree. I think the ball position matches his cast. 

This is taboo on here, I know, but he doesn’t start moving into right side bend soon enough in the downswing. His right shoulder stays really high and moves out. That’s why he casts from the top and the arms trail so much because if they didn’t he would hosel everything. 
 

Moving into right side bend is what helps create the look of a more forward trail elbow. When there isn’t enough, the look above appears. 

[bt1717]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

I agree. I think the ball position matches his cast. 

This is taboo on here, I know, but he doesn’t start moving into right side bend soon enough in the downswing. His right shoulder stays really high and moves out. That’s why he casts from the top and the arms trail so much because if they didn’t he would hosel everything. 
 

Moving into right side bend is what helps create the look of a more forward trail elbow. When there isn’t enough, the look above appears. 

Should this be a conscious effort I should make or a result of fixing other flaws in my swing? 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, bt1717 said:

Should this be a conscious effort I should make or a result of fixing other flaws in my swing? 

It will have to be a conscious effort. 
 

do these two things 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

 

This is the full version of the second clip for more context 

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I wouldn't say that is fair as he's made several changes that both @MonteScheinblum and @iacas mentioned regarding grip and that I mentioned regarding inside takeaway (he was super strong before, more neutral

It was just an observation by going back and looking at those videos. Not saying I was right just noting what I saw 

[bt1717]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I wouldn't say that is fair as he's made several changes that both @MonteScheinblum and @iacas mentioned regarding grip and that I mentioned regarding inside takeaway (he was super strong before, more neutral now). What i'm still seeing is the overly shut clubface, ball too far back in the stance, and an overrunning backswing:



The P2 position here (club parallel to the ground) is nice and neutral from a positional standpoint (slightly outside the hands) but the clubface is still pointed at the ground (very shut). Not much of a concern is it continued opening up to the top, but it's still quite shut up there. I'm mostly worried about the length of the backswing though and how much over-rotating we're seeing in the body. The second frame above would be considered a "full" iron swing for more, but...



...all of this is extra junk you need to cut out completely. You're standing up, over-rotating, and creating a position that you can't quickly transition out of because you need too much time to get the club back down in front of you, leading to this:



Your arms still severely trailing your lower body like before. Your right elbow should be down near your right hip at this point and your hands close to your right thigh, and you're way behind that. This is being exacerbated by a ball that is too far back in your stance like you're going to play a knockdown shot while making a long drive swing with an iron. You'll likely need to feel like you're making half swings to recalibrate what you consider a full swing for awhile, so please post some follow up vids of you making what you feel like is one of those swings and we can check in on that.
 

Here are two swings I made this evening after reading this. To me, it feels like my backswing stops at left arm parallel even though I can see that is not the case. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I wouldn't say that is fair as he's made several changes that both @MonteScheinblum and @iacas mentioned regarding grip and that I mentioned regarding inside takeaway (he was super strong before, more neutral now).

 

I wish golfers here just kept one topic about their swing, so you could scroll back through and see what he was working on two weeks or two months ago or whatever. It'd be a lot easier than having stuff spread across a bunch of topics, IMO.

[bt1717]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I wish golfers here just kept one topic about their swing, so you could scroll back through and see what he was working on two weeks or two months ago or whatever. It'd be a lot easier than having stuff spread across a bunch of topics, IMO.

Sorry about that. Should I keep swing updates/questions on this topic from now on?

[MPStrat]

This is the problem:

 

 

 

Then you have to stand up:

 

[bt1717]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

This is the problem:

 

 

 

Then you have to stand up:

 

Is the club just getting too steep in transition?

[MPStrat]

Just now, bt1717 said:

Is the club just getting too steep in transition?

Yes exactly. The videos I posted are some ideas to calm down your transition, and to get the arms and club more behind you or less in front, however you want to view it. 
 

I think there are some backswing things that could be cleaned up, but you will get the most bang for your buck working on a better change of direction move right now IMO

[bt1717]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Yes exactly. The videos I posted are some ideas to calm down your transition, and to get the arms and club more behind you or less in front, however you want to view it. 
 

I think there are some backswing things that could be cleaned up, but you will get the most bang for your buck working on a better change of direction move right now IMO

Thank you! 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, bt1717 said:

Sorry about that. Should I keep swing updates/questions on this topic from now on?

 

No need to apologize. I don't know what the rules or best practices are here. I just think it might help others help you better, and/or let you find your old posts and the posts that helped you previously more easily.

[Valtiel]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I wish golfers here just kept one topic about their swing, so you could scroll back through and see what he was working on two weeks or two months ago or whatever. It'd be a lot easier than having stuff spread across a bunch of topics, IMO.

 

17 hours ago, bt1717 said:

Sorry about that. Should I keep swing updates/questions on this topic from now on?

Agreed, and yes please keep updates to the single thread as having them spread across multiple makes it both more difficult for the people who are actively following up and also increases the chance that someone without any knowledge of your ongoing progression giving advice that might not fit.

Regarding your updates, that is a much more manageable swing length in the first video, but the steepness in transition is the issue:



This little move is kryptonite for a lot of ams that aren't comfortable with setting their wrists/the club correctly. In the moment you start your downswing the club works towards your head, which the opposite of what you want:



The more across the line you are the more you'll tend to see moves like Lowry with the club moving aggressively left in transition (big shallowing move). The more laid off however will see the club moving more straight down. What you'll never see is the club moving further across the line in transition, because that sets you up for a steep downswing.

I recommend getting in front of a mirror and rehearsing some backswings with the 45* wrist preset drill. Hinge the club up like they're describing here with just your wrists, basically towards 2 o'clock if 12 o'clock were straight in front of you, and then make a backswing from there holding exactly those angles with no additional wrist setting/movements while felling like you're basically throwing the club over your right shoulder. This should automatically get you to a pretty neutral position at the top because right now you're not setting your wrists or your right arm at the right time and it's a difficult thing to try to deconstruct (i'll try below). The preset drill cuts through all the explanation and just gets you straight to a very "stock" position that you can then spend time getting comfortable with.

My best guess is that the restricting of the necessary movements in both your right arm and right wrist is causing you arrive at a poor P4 (top of the backwing) position that is encouraging a steep move in transition. You're lacking flexion (folding) in your right arm/elbow and radial deviation (hinging up) in your right wrist, and it is these two elements that allow you to efficiently "cast" the club correctly in the downswing, like you'd cast a fishing pole. If you think about that motion when casting a line, that is basically what your right arm needs to do a version of in the downswing, that sort of sidearm casting motion similar to skipping a stone which is another visual often used. Imagine casting a line without hinging your wrist and limiting your elbow flexion; you'd make a pretty weak cast that way. Ideally the preset drill gets your angles right and you can start making 1/2 to 3/4 swings this way. Focus an hand/arm speed so you can get those elements firing right because this is also why IMO some people get stuck in the trailing P6 position highlighted above.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Valtiel

[bt1717]

 

8/13 Update

 

Haven’t had too much time to practice so I haven’t made a lot of significant progress. Been working on flexing the lead wrist in transition.  

 

[bt1717]

Update 9/11

[MPStrat]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwxipo2u6ou/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==